GTG - 1921 Peace Dollar (PR62 Satin) - Backstory and Grade In Comments
FlyingAl
Posts: 3,222 ✭✭✭✭✭
There are two correct answers on this one. It will be extremely difficult. Good luck!
First person to guess both grades correctly provided they already do not know those grades will win an UNC 1967 Kennedy half. If you explain your answer to my satisfaction, you will win a second UNC 1967.
Here you go!
Coin Photographer.
10
Comments
Cleaned Unc. ?
Matte proof
SP67
PR66
Edited to add the correct format. Added second answer.
I did not change anything else.
Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
Dantheman984 Toyz4geo SurfinxHI greencopper RWW bigjpst bretsan
Vam1F struck from proof dies
MS-64
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
Matte proof
MS65
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
MS-64+ star
Type collector, mainly into Seated. -formerly Ownerofawheatiehorde. Good BST transactions with: mirabela, OKCC, MICHAELDIXON, Gerard
Is there a limit to the number of guesses?
Type collector, mainly into Seated. -formerly Ownerofawheatiehorde. Good BST transactions with: mirabela, OKCC, MICHAELDIXON, Gerard
E. All of the above
No, but if I see you abusing that you will be removed from the running.
Additionally, a correct guess must be formatted in the format that it would appear on a grading label. For example, “SP70”.
Coin Photographer.
This looks like a correct answer for a difficult problem.
Do we get one each?
Proof 64
MS 64
How can there be two correct answers when there’s just one set of images?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The same coin was graded twice, with a different grade each time.
The two grades are about as far apart as you can get.
Coin Photographer.
Thanks.Then I’ll guess —- and —-😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
PF65
Unc Details cleaned
AU50
Ms63
Somehow I feel like this is a proof rather than the VAM 1F. I got to cheat a little by looking at a MS-63 VAM 1F that I own and it has some of the markers but not all. I don't see the little "hook" off the V in TRVST as I would expect on the 1F nor the double lines off the A in "Dollar". It does have the die polishing lines. Very clean coin except that small scratch off the nose on the obverse. Going out on a limb here with PF-63. If the better grade is PF-xx than I'd guess it was a PF details grade before.
PF64
PF60 Details
AU 50
&
DETAILS CLEANED
That does not speak well of the TPG and does not much for confidence in same. Graded both times by the same TPG?
NGC both times. That alone is a clue to the second answer...
Coin Photographer.
Matte 58
Al
Don't keep us waiting tooooo long
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
Oh, I won't. I reveal tomorrow night if no one has guessed by then. However, since no one has really guessed right, I'll give a few hints.
1) It was both detailed and straight graded.
2) The first grade has been posted in a picture in one of my discussions.
Coin Photographer.
Ok, here's my guess... this was originally graded as an UNC Details VAM 1H Polishing Lines. It later on was resubmitted and received the adjustment to a PR63 Satin Proof. Since PCGS doesn't acknowledge the SP, it had to be resubmitted through NGC a second time.
Unc details
Later graded as pr63 matte proof
Even though die polish lines are consistent with a satin proof.
It is a proof strike. But the surface texture doesn't quite match a satin proof or a matte proof.
So I think it is a satin proof with some mild environmental effects and/or light cleaning (mostly on the obverse).
I will guess PR (Genuine) UNC details (PCGS) and then Proof Details Cleaned (NGC).
But still a nice coin.
If I were to assign a numerical grade for valuation purposes, I might net it at PR 63.
PR58
Nice image and a wonderful coin. As for the grade, I predict that I will have different thoughts than NGC. It does have the look as being struck from proof dies- the real problem/question is whether the surfaces have been impaired beyond the matte appearance that the coin has. At first blush, I can see a details grade. Perhaps not just because it may have sustained a lite wipe, but because of what looks to be a distracting field scratch in the field next to the portrait nose. However, in this instance I don't think that is the better opinion. I agree with a straight grade but I am struggling with what that straight grade should be without seeing it in hand to measure- at least to my satisfaction- the possible surface impairment.
edited to add- I had a 1921 Peace graded by our host within the past year- we had differing opinions which adds to the reluctance to offer a specific grade.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
SP65.
Details cleaned
And now PF62 Satin
Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM
MS 64 and AU58
One poster is very close now, but one of their answers doesn't match with the answer format requirement. I will let the contest continue to run, and if no one gets closer that poster would win the 1967 half.
Coin Photographer.
AU Details
bob
vegas, baby!
I will take another shot.
Details sandblasted
Matte PR63
Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
Dantheman984 Toyz4geo SurfinxHI greencopper RWW bigjpst bretsan
Will the prize generate a 1099?
I do not have the skill yet to grade this, and it would be disingenuous of me to cobble an answer from the previous guesses in an attempt to hit the mark. I just wanted to say that this has been one of the best GTG threads from my perspective as several posters @AndyK , @coinkat , among others, have backed their guesses with great explanations. I appreciate that.
Disregard my previous jests.
Proof details cleaned
PFMA 66
I'll try this again
Vam1F struck from proof dies MS Details grade
To
PR-64 Satin Finish
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
I could see something like PF-64 in the current NGC holder, and MS-63 in a PCGS holder with their disclaimer of something like "MS of Satin PF Dies".
On the web: http://www.earlyus.com
SP64
Sandblasted with Antique Finish
M Proof
Scratched
PR58
Unc details cleaned
UNC Details Cleaned
PF62 Sandblasted Finish
The surfaces do not have the light luster that the Satin Proof would, plus it's much more granular looking, which is what a sandblasted finish would show.
Alright, we'll call it here. I'll say that @jtlee321 was the closest, as his answers were formatted correctly. Please PM me for your prize!
The original grade - UNC Details, Cleaned
.
.
The new grade - PF62 Satin:
.
.
.
Here's a link to an old video over at MyCollect. I will need to take a new one.
https://www.mycollect.com/posts/80893
Man, what a story with this one. I’ve long since loved Satin Proofs, and I knew I could never buy one any time soon. So I set out to find one. I knew I would never find Satin gold, so that left the 1921 Peace. It’s been one of those back burner hunts that I did for fun, thinking it would never pan out.
I was scrolling through Ebay one day, and saw this 1921 listed with abysmal pictures. I looked at it for a second, saw it was a VAM 1-H, and then looked closer. Square rims. Huh. I sent the pics to a group of a few board members, asking if they thought it could be a Proof. I got the response I expected - “Nah, look at this image of a graded Proof they don’t look alike.” Fair response, I do seem crazy at times. These guys are the best of the best, decades long collectors. I should probably listen to them. I put it out of my mind for a few days, and then brought it back up with my good friend @Eldorado9, looking for him to prove me wrong. A few hundred texts later, we decided that I should go for it. The hair detail was incredible, the die markers matched up, and the rims were square. I decided I had to trust my gut on this one.
The coin was listed as UNC Details, and it was almost guaranteed to be exactly that. I think I expected it to show up as an UNC cleaned, so it was a no harm no foul situation if it did. It was the longest shot in the history of long shots. I got up at 5am the morning of the auction, placed my bid a few minutes later as it closed, and won without an opposing bidder.
The wait was agonizing. As I waited, Eldo and I (mostly me pestering Eldo) spent the days doing research on these, finding graded Proofs and doing comparisons. I researched these things down to the most minute details as far as strike characteristics go, even to the point where I found a graded Proof with the same fragment of debris that caused the strike thru on my current coin. We got more and more confident by the day. Everything seemed to line up, but there was that nagging thought - surely a 1921 Satin Proof doesn’t show up on Ebay.
Finally, the postman arrived. A barrage of videos and pics arrived in my text chain with Eldo, along with my statement “10000000% a Proof.” My gut reaction to seeing it in hand was exactly that, and through this entire journey that wouldn’t change. The surfaces are simply unlike any other 1921 I’ve ever seen, or any coin at all. There are some hairlines, but no marks to speak of except a minor strike thru in the left obverse.
Eldo immediately made plans to drop by that weekend to see it in hand - and when he came down I passed him the coin and he looked at it for about a minute without saying a word. I personally think he was looking for a reason to call it MS, but he didn’t find one because he looked up and told me “I think it’s a PR65.” We spent a few hours looking at the other Proofs on Heritage, the PCGS coin, everything we could find. We couldn’t find a reason why it wasn’t a Proof. At this point, no one but him and I knew I even bought the coin - the original group of advisors thought I had passed on the coin.
So I sent it to NGC. Two weeks pass, and we get the results - UNC Details, Cleaned. ARRRGGGH! I was frustrated. I was so certain that I had this one right - and it was looking like it really was UNC Cleaned all along. There’s $400 in grading fees down the drain.
A part of me kept me looking into it - I revisited my research. Again, I confirmed to myself it really was what I thought it was - a Proof. I reached out to my original group of advisors, this time armed with die markers, strike characteristics, and the like. I explained all of the story that had gone before, as they didn’t know I had bought the coin. I had it all, and I was ready to prove it. Prove it I did - for two people of the five. I reached out to two more trusted experts, and both of them told me they felt like it was an MS based on the pics. One is particularly tough on Peace dollars, and the other was hesitant based on an aversion to grading from pics (which is a perfectly reasonable stance that I respect and agree with). Personally, I would have been just as hesitant if presented with the same question - “So… do you think this is an R6 Proof that I found on Ebay?”
Those who know me know I don’t give up on my opinions easily, especially when I feel that my reasoning is sound and I feel I’m correct. This was one of those cases.
Luckily, one of those two people I originally convinced is particularly well connected, and he offered to submit the coin for me. When he got it in hand, he had the same gut reaction as me and Eldo - it’s a Proof. He did have a special vantage point, but he can chime in on that if he wishes. He submitted it for me, and then two weeks later I got a message in my inbox - “Congratulations! I’ll let you tell the group” along with a picture of this coin in a PR62 Satin slab. The ecstatic reactions from the group of collectors made it all worth it.
So here we are, through one of the wildest journeys ever. This is one of the wildest stories as far as coins go that I’ve heard, but here we are. We went from UNC Details to a pop 24 coin in one of the most popular series in American numismatics - and I got to fulfill a dream. I know for certain now that over 1/10 of the population of Satin Proof Peace dollars have been cherry picked.
I suppose it all goes to show - buy the coin, not the slab! I’ve worked for years to get to a point where I trust my gut over almost everything in numismatics, and now it really is beginning to pay off in spades. If I was ever asked what the most important thing in coins is - it’s to trust yourself, not a grading service or the like. Those are good confirmation, but you have to know when they get it wrong. Learn how to grade, learn how to see what makes a coin special.
Coin Photographer.
@FlyingAl @jtlee321 said sandblasted finish which it is not. Its your contest, but I think I was the closest.
Successful BST with ad4400, Kccoin, lablover, pointfivezero, koynekwest, jwitten, coin22lover, HalfDimeDude, erwindoc, jyzskowsi, COINS MAKE CENTS, AlanSki, BryceM
I think the two of you tied.
You get the nod for "satin" proof over his "sandblast" Proof. But he gets the nod for "Unc. details cleaned" over your "details cleaned".
If I were @FlyingAl, I'd give half of the prize (coin) to each of you.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Alex, that was a terrific write-up - it made me feel like I was there with you during your adventure.
As I said by PM the other day, I'm thrilled for you.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Agreed.
Send them each a clad quarter.
peacockcoins
To the original poster: please make new “expert” friends/advisors regarding peace dollars. Peace dollars aren’t even my specialty and even stupid me can tell this is clearly a proof.
Gosh, I sure hope he doesn't ditch me as a fiend/advisor.
Based on the pictures I viewed weeks ago, I wasn't at all convinced that the coin was a Proof. And I've seen a good number of Satin and Matte examples in-hand over the years. That said, the pictures posted in this thread are much more convincing.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.