@jacrispies said: @BustDMs That is a SWEET off center double strike. Particularly because it has both obverse and reverse detail. Does it have a set of dentil tracks on either side? I am curious how that particular coin reacted with the metal movement during the first strike.
Here are more complete images. As you can see NO dentil tracks…..humm.
Very interesting piece! That die state appears to completely lack dentils, which would explain the lack of dentil tracks. The first strike looks to be about 60% off center, which that large percentage off may affect the planchet curling over the edge of the die and making the rim impression.
Do you have any more triple strikes? My only example is the 1820 posted above. I have not seen too many, they are pretty darn rare.
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606
This 1795 Drape Bust Dollar struck on a small copper planchet was a mint error, pattern, die trial or fantasy piece. It has an amazing pedigree, and it’s listed and plated in Judd. I purchased it from Andy Lustig, and placed it in a world class famous collection for $375k.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
Here is a new one for me, from the Henry Hilgard collection. I think it's likely to be double struck as well as off center given the dentil tracks. What do you guys think?
@scubafuel Any error bust half is a good bust half! Your example is a premium example with a great pedigree. Double struck without a doubt. One may have to sacrifice eye appeal for a medium to major error, but your coin luckily has both! Congrats!
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@scubafuel said:
Here is a new one for me, from the Henry Hilgard collection. I think it's likely to be double struck as well as off center given the dentil tracks. What do you guys think?
Other than the dentil marks on the obverse what other evidence do you see to say it was double struck?
I believe it is a single strike off center. As the planchet was partially outside the minting chamber or to better describe laying on the edge of the open collar. The hammer die, obverse in this case, contacted the planchet which was teetering on the collar. As the downward pressure continued the planchet was forced to “slide” into place as the coin was fully struck. This caused the doubling in the dentils, one set from initial contact the others from the finishing strike.
Just my opinion, any others?
Q: When does a collector become a numismatist?
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
I believe it is a single strike off center. As the planchet was partially outside the minting chamber or to better describe laying on the edge of the open collar. The hammer die, obverse in this case, contacted the planchet which was teetering on the collar. As the downward pressure continued the planchet was forced to “slide” into place as the coin was fully struck. This caused the doubling in the dentils, one set from initial contact the others from the finishing strike.
Just my opinion, any others?
To go along with your theory, why are there never any "smeared" dentil tracks? You would think if the coin hit at an angle with the hammer die continuing to apply downward pressure, the edge of the die would catch and drag the metal into its final resting place. That is never observed.
I have found that any row of mint-made dentil tracks guarantees a second strike. You rarely ever see a row of dentil tracks on both sides of a coin, and there is a explanation for that using physics.
Without the Early Mint using a retaining collar to strike coins, the metal, as you know, flows outward. If the dies are parallel and the planchet is centered, that outward distribution should be (almost entirely) even across the entire coin. When a planchet enters the striking chamber off center, the outward flow is uneven, spreading the metal irregularly. That warps the newly struck coin, particularly in the area of the unstruck portion. It usually curls up or curls down (side note: I believe it always curls toward the hammer die, although unconfirmed). Because the unstruck area curls, it pinches itself on the edge of the die, deeply impressing a row of dentils in the coin which becomes the deepest struck area because the coin is slightly dish-shaped. When corrected and placed in the striking chamber for a second time, the entire design is usually struck out, except the single row of dentil tracks only visible on one side of the coin.
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606
Sliding is a possibility, but there is no evidence of it. Both sets of dentil tracks are deep and distinct from each other. I think I side with @jacrispies on this one. His explanation is very convincing and (at least for bust quarters) is supported by the fact that most all dentil tracks are on the reverse, which is thought to be the hammer die for that series.
Also, I tested the "curls toward hammer die" theory using some of my kids play doh, and it checks out
@scubafuel said:
Here is a new one for me, from the Henry Hilgard collection. I think it's likely to be double struck as well as off center given the dentil tracks. What do you guys think?
Other than the dentil marks on the obverse what other evidence do you see to say it was double struck?
I believe it is a single strike off center. As the planchet was partially outside the minting chamber or to better describe laying on the edge of the open collar. The hammer die, obverse in this case, contacted the planchet which was teetering on the collar. As the downward pressure continued the planchet was forced to “slide” into place as the coin was fully struck. This caused the doubling in the dentils, one set from initial contact the others from the finishing strike.
Just my opinion, any others?
A fascinating coin. The theory is plausible, but I would like to ponder upon it.
I wonder what caused the void above stars 4-7?
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Comments
Great thread.
How about an obv shot why don't you
Very interesting piece! That die state appears to completely lack dentils, which would explain the lack of dentil tracks. The first strike looks to be about 60% off center, which that large percentage off may affect the planchet curling over the edge of the die and making the rim impression.
Do you have any more triple strikes? My only example is the 1820 posted above. I have not seen too many, they are pretty darn rare.
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606
OOH, AAH! Too cool......
I would also like to see an obverse shot.
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
That is such a sweet specimen! I have an 1819 unlettered but def not that nice!
Jdillane, having ANY genuine unlettered edge half dollar is an achievement!
Congratulations. What grade is yours?
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
This 1795 Drape Bust Dollar struck on a small copper planchet was a mint error, pattern, die trial or fantasy piece. It has an amazing pedigree, and it’s listed and plated in Judd. I purchased it from Andy Lustig, and placed it in a world class famous collection for $375k.
https://mikebyers.com/44551874.html
Here is a new one for me, from the Henry Hilgard collection. I think it's likely to be double struck as well as off center given the dentil tracks. What do you guys think?
@scubafuel Any error bust half is a good bust half! Your example is a premium example with a great pedigree. Double struck without a doubt. One may have to sacrifice eye appeal for a medium to major error, but your coin luckily has both! Congrats!
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606
<-- (Stands and applauds)
Other than the dentil marks on the obverse what other evidence do you see to say it was double struck?
I believe it is a single strike off center. As the planchet was partially outside the minting chamber or to better describe laying on the edge of the open collar. The hammer die, obverse in this case, contacted the planchet which was teetering on the collar. As the downward pressure continued the planchet was forced to “slide” into place as the coin was fully struck. This caused the doubling in the dentils, one set from initial contact the others from the finishing strike.
Just my opinion, any others?
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
Thanks Captain, coming from you the standing O means a lot.
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
To go along with your theory, why are there never any "smeared" dentil tracks? You would think if the coin hit at an angle with the hammer die continuing to apply downward pressure, the edge of the die would catch and drag the metal into its final resting place. That is never observed.
I have found that any row of mint-made dentil tracks guarantees a second strike. You rarely ever see a row of dentil tracks on both sides of a coin, and there is a explanation for that using physics.
Without the Early Mint using a retaining collar to strike coins, the metal, as you know, flows outward. If the dies are parallel and the planchet is centered, that outward distribution should be (almost entirely) even across the entire coin. When a planchet enters the striking chamber off center, the outward flow is uneven, spreading the metal irregularly. That warps the newly struck coin, particularly in the area of the unstruck portion. It usually curls up or curls down (side note: I believe it always curls toward the hammer die, although unconfirmed). Because the unstruck area curls, it pinches itself on the edge of the die, deeply impressing a row of dentils in the coin which becomes the deepest struck area because the coin is slightly dish-shaped. When corrected and placed in the striking chamber for a second time, the entire design is usually struck out, except the single row of dentil tracks only visible on one side of the coin.
"But seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and all these things shall be added unto you" Matthew 6:33. Young fellow suffering from Bust Half fever.
BHNC #AN-10
JRCS #1606
Sliding is a possibility, but there is no evidence of it. Both sets of dentil tracks are deep and distinct from each other. I think I side with @jacrispies on this one. His explanation is very convincing and (at least for bust quarters) is supported by the fact that most all dentil tracks are on the reverse, which is thought to be the hammer die for that series.
Also, I tested the "curls toward hammer die" theory using some of my kids play doh, and it checks out
A fascinating coin. The theory is plausible, but I would like to ponder upon it.
I wonder what caused the void above stars 4-7?
TD