Home World & Ancient Coins Forum

Guatemala 1816-NG M 8 Reales// 1815/4 4 Reales & 1819 2R added

coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,671 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited January 25, 2024 2:17PM in World & Ancient Coins Forum

This one came back from our host. I thought it worthy of sharing. I thought it best to simply start with an obverse image. While it is hard to grade from a TV and just from the obverse side of the coin, feel free to share any thoughts you might have. My view of this coin might be jaded based on the quality and the die prep that I really have not seen in others for this series. I felt certain that it would get a +... which it did... it was that second digit that seems misplaced. And it looking at the coin again, I suspect there is a fundamental disagreement over what might be hairlines and die polish. There is a disturbance in the field as one can see, but the surfaces have a rare PL quality which simply makes this a seldom seen example. I will say Guatemala is not my strength in numismatics, but regardless, I have never seen an 8R from this series that has this look which is amazing. I suppose as the owner, I am already guilty of adding a point. And for that reason, the reverse will be posted later.

Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

Comments

  • Pretty piece, as Guatemala pieces of the Charles IIII into Ferdinand VII era (and continuing on for a bit into the independent C.A.R. era coinage) often are. Reflective surfaces are a definite trait of this coinage, as a review of the relatively plentiful high-grade minors will show. Makes the toning "sit" on the pieces in a particular manner as is seen here.

    And, accordingly, die polish definitely observed. You can see some around the periphery. The "True" view can mask surface issues, so hard to say with certainty... that R obverse field looks like it could be a tad scruffy/ticky.

    Few adjustment marks as is typical for Guatemala, nothing egregious.

  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 11,821 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 5, 2023 12:48PM

    It is a nice coin, and don’t let the grade that you were expecting to get detract from your enjoyment of owning the coin.

    There was a large hoard of Ferdinand vii Guatemala, minors, and some crowns which is called the Hubbard hoard, named after noted, collector Clyde, Hubbard who discovered it, and brought it to market. From that hoard I count eight proof like 1816 eight Reales, including a 65 which Isaac Rudman owned. He also owned another 65 not PL.

  • RSPRSP Posts: 63 ✭✭

    Very nice coin with a great look. Seems pretty gemmy to me. What's the problem, a little cabinet friction on the high point of the cheek and the chin? Those very fine parallel lines in the left field look like die polish to me. Give me a break! Show me a nicer one. What service graded the Rudman coins? Can someone (Boosibri?) post a picture of either one.

  • TwoKopeikiTwoKopeiki Posts: 9,504 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I like it. Hard to guess the grade from the TV as it looks like there might be some chatter in the field in front of the bust that's a bit blown-out by the lighting.

  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 11,821 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RSP said:
    Very nice coin with a great look. Seems pretty gemmy to me. What's the problem, a little cabinet friction on the high point of the cheek and the chin? Those very fine parallel lines in the left field look like die polish to me. Give me a break! Show me a nicer one. What service graded the Rudman coins? Can someone (Boosibri?) post a picture of either one.


  • bidaskbidask Posts: 13,818 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Neither of those would cross to PCGS imo....does not matter.

    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,671 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 6, 2023 3:50AM

    Reverse image added. The image really captures the intensity of the surfaces - however the highlighted cameo features are muted.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • TwoKopeikiTwoKopeiki Posts: 9,504 ✭✭✭✭✭

    62 makes me think there's something not obvious in the TV.

  • tcollectstcollects Posts: 733 ✭✭✭✭

    I wish every 62 looked so nice

  • realeswatcherrealeswatcher Posts: 338 ✭✭✭

    @bidask said:
    Neither of those would cross to PCGS imo....does not matter.

    Sometimes you initially get stopped short of the marker, but that second effort gets you the 1st Down...

    .
    .
    .

    @Boosibri said:
    There was a large hoard of Ferdinand vii Guatemala, minors, and some crowns which is called the Hubbard hoard, named after noted, collector Clyde, Hubbard who discovered it, and brought it to market. From that hoard I count eight proof like 1816 eight Reales, including a 65 which Isaac Rudman owned. He also owned another 65 not PL.

    @TwoKopeiki said:
    Hard to guess the grade from the TV as it looks like there might be some chatter in the field in front of the bust that's a bit blown-out by the lighting.................. 62 makes me think there's something not obvious in the TV

    Interesting to learn Hubbard was the conduit for much of this... he had his hands in everything, didn't he?! Is there some accounting/documentation of what was contained in said hoard?

    Looking at the pieces @Boosibri linked plus a few other likely suspects in archives, you can see the similar "look" to them, and sort of the same idea of some degree of bagmarking or similar. Always a crapshoot with pieces that have a super flashy look like this how the overall eye appeal will weigh against technically detracting surface marks (plus how someone factors adjustment marks can be subjective). You see the same thing, for example, with pieces from the 1774 Potosi 8R "Aymara Hoard". Will say, though, if I saw Fernando walking towards me with a scar on his cheek like that 2nd NGC65PL example has, I'd probably keep my distance.

  • realeswatcherrealeswatcher Posts: 338 ✭✭✭
    edited December 6, 2023 5:55AM

    @coinkat said:

    Reverse image added. The image really captures the intensity of the surfaces - however the highlighted cameo features are muted.

    If you have the coin in hand, could you snap a few non-glamour shots?

    BTW, it's definitely a really pretty coin. I mean, it got a "+" and the PL designation... that alone tells you it has a lot going for it.

  • ClioClio Posts: 480 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Gorgeous coin! If I had to guess on the grade result being what it is I'd pin it on the toning around the rim which looks terminal/stained. Just a bit too far gone and assuming it would've been a 64 that's been netted down.

    https://numismaticmuse.com/ My Web Gallery

    The best collecting goals lie right on the border between the possible and the impossible. - Andy Lustig, "MrEureka"

  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,671 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Sadly any pictures that I would post would simply not advance the discussion.

    I posted this coin a tad prematurely in that I have submissions pending. I really like this coin and I am pleased to own it. The 62+ PL is a disappointment but in no way diminishes my view or my liking of this coin. I am thrilled to be lucky enough to own it even though it may not have met my initial expectations in terms of the assigned grade... So what? ... My concern really extends not as to what I may think but the implications that an assigned grade may have on others. This coin really speaks volumes as to grading expectations. And that trickles down to various series and mints- the end product and surviving population. It is s is not just an exercise in grading or deciding what one may like- it really boils down to what exists as well as in what state of preservation and when and how it becomes available. I provided an off the cuff remark to another board member here whom I hold in high esteem, that when it comes to submissions, I would rather be lucky than right.

    I really do not want this to come across as whining... instead this is about a reality check in expectations. Collecting rarity is simply different than what is widely or easily available.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • RSPRSP Posts: 63 ✭✭

    I don't think the toning is the problem. Could it be that long very thin vertical line from temple to the bust? Seems too severely graded unless it shows more in hand, especially compared to NGC's scarface grade. I do agree with @bid/ask that the chance of PCGS crossing over either of the NGC "gems" is slim to none. My thanks to Boosibri for the pictures. Would you, coinkat, have been satisfied with PCGS 63PL? That seems reasonable to me.

  • bidaskbidask Posts: 13,818 ✭✭✭✭✭

    “ Collecting rarity is simply different than what is widely or easily available “

    How so ?

    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • TomBTomB Posts: 20,612 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't care what the grade is, the coin is frickin' gorgeous!

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • SimonWSimonW Posts: 563 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If you're disillusioned with the coin, I'd be happy to take it away from your presence, wouldn't want it to be a constant reminder of the egregious error perpetrated by our hosts. (I LOVE it!!!)

    I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.

  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,671 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bidask asked in response to my statement:

    “ Collecting rarity is simply different than what is widely or easily available “

    How so ?

    Rarity has significantly fewer options and buying opportunities based solely on what survived at various states of preservation.

    Buying an 1881-s Morgan would be like going to Burger King... without much effort you can have it your way.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • bidaskbidask Posts: 13,818 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There is ALOT of buying going on those Burger King coins

    That’s what I see

    I manage money. I earn money. I save money .
    I give away money. I collect money.
    I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.




  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,671 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 23, 2024 2:30PM

    1815/4 4 Reales- feel free to comment- not going to spoil the fun prematurely...

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,671 ✭✭✭✭✭

    1819 2R

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • pruebaspruebas Posts: 4,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @realeswatcher said:

    @bidask said:
    Neither of those would cross to PCGS imo....does not matter.

    Sometimes you initially get stopped short of the marker, but that second effort gets you the 1st Down...

    .
    .
    .

    @Boosibri said:
    There was a large hoard of Ferdinand vii Guatemala, minors, and some crowns which is called the Hubbard hoard, named after noted, collector Clyde, Hubbard who discovered it, and brought it to market. From that hoard I count eight proof like 1816 eight Reales, including a 65 which Isaac Rudman owned. He also owned another 65 not PL.

    @TwoKopeiki said:
    Hard to guess the grade from the TV as it looks like there might be some chatter in the field in front of the bust that's a bit blown-out by the lighting.................. 62 makes me think there's something not obvious in the TV

    Interesting to learn Hubbard was the conduit for much of this... he had his hands in everything, didn't he?! Is there some accounting/documentation of what was contained in said hoard?

    I knew Clyde Hubbard pretty well. He was in the cosmetics business in Latin America--pretty lucrative if you think about it--and manufactured his plastic cases at a factory he owned in Colombia. He traveled fairly extensively in Mexico and Central America and would always look for people with coins after business was complete for the day. He would ask around and go to their homes, buying whatever the people had for sale. This type of person exists in many cultures, going to homes in the countryside and buying antiques to sell to collectors in the city, though today, probably little is left to find. But in the 1950s and 60s, it must have been fantastic if you knew what you were doing!

    He told me that he carried this hoard in those woven shopping bags (that I always associate with developing countries) with him on the plane. Those were the days before magnetometers and hand carry luggage screening (so probably late 1960s sometime), so he just walked onboard with them. He said those bags were covered with things to hide the contents and distract snooping authorities but were HEAVY, so he struggled to appear calm and normal while boarding the aircraft home.

    I can only imagine how many silver cuartillos were contained in those bags if they were that heavy!

    You still see those choice/gem Guatemala cuartillos today all over the place.

    Being that this happened in the 1960s, and that Hubbard was pretty secretive (unsurprisingly so), I don't expect there is anything publicly recorded about the hoard.

Sign In or Register to comment.