Problem coins- Are they experiencing a big upturn in prices?
liefgold
Posts: 1,690 ✭✭✭✭✭
Maybe this is just my area of the market, but I am seeing considerably higher prices for details graded problem coins. Cleaned, scratched, damaged, and altered, which used to sell at a small fraction of their straight graded comparables, are suddenly bringing prices approaching straight grades.
Anybody else seeing this?
liefgold
4
Comments
Better owning a rare coin that not having the funds to buy a numerical graded coin in my opinion. Many coins are just to costly for most collectors in such grades at least we have alternatives.
NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers
What is a collector to do just buy commons in high grade and never have any mega key coins.
NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers
In a large percentage of cases, problem coins haven’t brought and aren’t currently bringing “prices approaching straight grades”. Perhaps, as you speculated, it’s just your area of the market.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Depends on the eye appeal, the problem and the grading company. It varies widely.
Definitely!
Back in the 2015-2018 market, I used to buy ‘details’ examples of the more expensive US type coins at, like you said, small fractions of straight-grade prices. Lightly cleaned or mildly corroded was all I could afford!
Today, unless the coin is a total mess or has a hole in it, auction results for this former ‘dreck’ bring very close to greysheet prices.
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
To clarify (I hate to disagree with MFeld), I don’t follow prices for altered, scratched, damaged, bent, or holed coins - all of which bring ‘what they’re worth,’ depending on how hard they’ve been hit with the ugly stick.
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
Don’t confuse asking prices by resellers with value. There has always been a market for problems to 2nd tier dealers who crack or up sell to unknowing collectors. Plus a smaller market for lightly problemed coins to knowing collectors who valued the discount. In the current “everybody is entitled to a profit” reselling culture, a few pass the buck transactions can multiply until you get a sucker stuck looking for a bigger sucker and the appearance of higher value.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Yes, for at least the past couple of years.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
There has been a good increase in auction PR's and dealer prices of all denominations on 1794-1807 US circulated and graded coinage since 2020, which is what I collect. The non-graded details coins of the same have also gone up in price, but not close to graded coins, more of a proportionate increase. I watch prices of rare varieties in all grades and conditions.
Case in point
1843-O PCGS AU details 94-Altered Surface Unusual fully struck coin
PCGS has only 4 in AU and 2 in BU straight graded. This will sell for only about 20% of a straight grade coin!
Purchased in 1988. It had bright surfaces and retoned back. Quite a condition rarity.
Kam Awash once said there were only 10 in EF or better. Not quite true.
1859-s PCGS cleaned 15 in EF, 9 in AU, 3 in BU straight graded. Try to find just an nice XF!
**This was in my collection for 4 years. Bought at 40% of trends, sold at 55% of trends to a non specialist dealer. **
Possibly so.
Never would be a buyer of problem coins. There are people who buy them to crack out for their albums. A problem coin dealer could answer that.
In my mind, there are problem coins and then there are, "PROBLEM COINS". The ones acceptable in my mind are ones that are listed as cleaned and you really have to look at it to find the listed concern or even disagree with the TPG. Small scratches that are hard to find are another good example. Wheel mark designated coins, which I have missed myself when sending at least two coins in the past are just another example.
Until YOU try to sell it.
Actually some of my biggest profits have been selling "problems".
I collect gold dollars, and Heritage recently sold a large collection from "The Estate of Charles W. Montgomery". It contained many net graded, problem coins. Check out the prices realized and you will see some very high prices for many of these.
A couple of examples:
This one sold for MS65 straight grade money.
This one sold for 70% of AU money.
There are quite a few instances in which highly knowledgeable bidders disagree with the “Problem” designation and bid (even strong) straight-grade money. On the other hand, there are many occasions in which highly knowledgeable bidders disagree with a grading company’s straight grade assessment and either bid low or pass, altogether.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I've seen this as well. I started to see this more after TPGs started slabbing them and especially after TrueViews started showing up.
Agree. It's good to be able to discern for yourself.
I have a couple of coins that kind of really got my attention. One was a 1931S Lincoln penny that I purchased for $75 from a VERY WELL KNOWN coin/auction house in Dallas, TX, about 40 years ago…and $75 for a coin while I was in my 20’s was a significant amount of money, especially since my military paycheck was only $600 a month. I submitted the coin to PCGS a few years ago and it came back as a “questionable color” even though it looks like 99% of the pennies I have ever seen. Another Morgan dollar I submitted (from another respected dealer) that looked amazing and close to a DMPL came back as ‘cleaned’…….. It has made me very leery of buying just about anything anymore. Seems there’s way too many unknowns in grading and even coins from respectable dealers aren’t immune from the wrath of top TPG.
A voice from one who knows.
I wonder how many details coins with very minor problems get cracked out by dealers and then put into their inventory as a raw coin with a straight grade and no mention of the problem.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Trade Dollars have a lot of problem coins in the series for sale, and the market appears to be solid for problem coins in this series. I am not seeing problem Trade Dollars approaching the straight grade pricing. I have wondered if the gap in pricing between problem coins and straight graded examples is a littler closer for Trade Dollars than other series. There is a variance for Trade Dollar pricing of problem coins depending on condition, chop marks and rarity.
One man's problem coin is another man's problem coin.
So, no!
+1
Especially eBay.
In “the good old days,” problem coins were usually cheap. I am amazed at what they bring in the auctions these days. The five figure prices realized amaze me.
The 1866 looks like an ultra cameo. It has to have hairlines when you see it up close.
The 1855-C gold gold dollar is a very badly made coin. Virtually all of them are ugly. When I was building a set, I couldn’t see much difference between the EF-45 and AU-50, but there was a huge difference in price. I bought an EF-45 with a fully struck reverse.
I guarantee you that this has been cracked out. The words “harshly cleaned” is a deal killer.
I have passed on so many "straight graded" problem coins in the past year. I just won't buy a problem coin, I'd rather not have it in my collection!
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
I think the game from the beginning of the genuine holder the game has been to get them into straight graded holders. If a coin looks like it can make it, it will bring a lot more than if it doesn’t.
So yeah, it depends.
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
I am not seeing it in true scarcer key date coins like 1823/2 quarter, 74-cc dime, 78-s half, etc. stuff like 09-s vdb, 16-d in lower mid grade faired better, but I dont buy em, but I see the auction results all the time.
I'm guilty on a few occasions of bidding high on details cherry picks.
They were 1855/54s mislabeled and priced high for EF and AU "details" 1855 normal dates. I wanted some of them for my "Misidentified 55/54 overdates in the four major TPG holders" registry set. One came with a TrueView for the world to see their error in great detail. One was whizzed, gouged, but nicely toned. I like it, but that one was cheap. Most were near retail for an 1855 normal date.
AU-details "scratch"
All of a sudden a lot of my coins just became more valuable.
Interesting thread... in my little corner of numismatics, early copper, problem coins priced near guide book prices typically sit unless it's a super rare variety that someone cherry picks. I got the Classic Head LC for my 7070 at a third of guidebook price because it was a details coin. The problem I see in an over reliance of TPG straight graded labels is that a number of the coins actually have issues... I guess once they get a straight-grade, they're in a plastic tomb.
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
I'm not seeing it.
Problem coins are, in most instances, something that I steer clear of.
Sometimes, it’s better to be LUCKY than good. 🍀 🍺👍
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947):
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
And then purchaser submits said coin only to have it straight grade... All details coins are not similar. I'll pass on "damaged", repaired, ex-jewelry or holed coins but otherwise I could be interested.
Mark