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Coins vs. Stamps since 1980…
MrEureka
Posts: 23,949 ✭✭✭✭✭
In the late 70’s, the coin and stamp markets were both very strong. In 1980, both markets tanked. Since then, coins have recovered very strongly, albeit with a few setbacks along the way. Stamps have not done anywhere near as well.
With the benefit of hindsight, do you think the divergence between the two markets was predictable? If so, how might you have explained your prediction?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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The only thing that comes to mind when you talk about coins and stamps, is that the United States Post Office and the United States Mint have mass produced stamps and coins for everyday of the year.
Disclaimer: I'm not a dealer, trader, grader, investor or professional numismatist. I'm just a hobbyist. (To protect me but mostly you! 🤣 )
Predictable in 1990? Probably not. But it became clear shortly after that because of a significant drop in the collector base. There just weren't a lot if younger collectors coming in. I had arguments (surprising?) with old-timers in the late 1990s about it. They were convinced that it was a temporary lull and a huge buying opportunity. I was convinced it was a more fundamental shift.
There may be a role played by TPGS's worth discussion. But I'm too tired right now
The advent of the ink jet printer and eBay spelled death to rare stamps. And the proliferation of USPS designs hurt completionists a lot too. Otherwise it was forecast as a race to the bottom. Coins were going to lose intergenerational popularity due to the obvious migration to a cashless retail economy. Stamps were to become decreasingly familiar due to electronic communication and the ascent of private courier services. The odd thing is that coins appeared to have a bigger handicap. Both are, to borrow from QD Bowers, history in your hands.
After the correction of stamp values in 1982, if one focused on pre-1935 never hinged Fine to Very Fine (F-VF) or better stamps, one did well into the mid 2000s. Since then prices have steadily declined because of the lack of interest from new collectors and dealers. Of course, the excessive number of new issues which created a glut of discount postage didn't help. Old covers were also popular during this time for those interested in tracing the history of the mail service.
I started collecting stamps about the same time I started collecting coins. I bought from H.E. Harris, and little plate blocks of commemoratives from the Post Office. I still have my collections, but I never went back to it.
A coin vendor from which I buy coins from time to time demonstrates how much stamps haven't appreciated in the last 60 years, by covering the shipping container with decades-old commemorative stamps, using them as postage at face value.
I liked collecting stamps; they can be very pretty, and the Post Office in those days put out a new commemorative frequently. But most stamps are produced in huge quantities, and, unlike coins, older stamps weren't in "general circulation," so I had no chance of happening on an interesting old stamp.
This might explain the trend
Were there many younger collectors coming in to coins back then? Were they actually the source of the strength of the coin market in the following decades? And if coins really were attracting a lot of young collectors back then, why would they choose coins over stamps?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I buy most of the stamp collections that show up at the local coin shops. The vast majority of the time, the only value is in the usable first class postage (most of it from the late 1930s onward). The rest is junk. The lower the denomination, the greater the percentage discount below face value.
I tell people that postage stamps are like rocks. You can go out in the parking lot and find all kinds of rocks - none of them worth anything. But there are rare gems that are worth something. But those won't be found in the parking lot or in bulk stamp packets sold by major stamp dealers.
If, for example, you had a letter with the stamps and postmarks that was actually carried by the Pony Express, then that would be worth as much now (if not more) than it was ever worth in the past.
I have a small collection of stamps. Some of it is pretty cheap stuff. But here are some better items:
A few more:
There were far more young coin people than stamp people, especially given the size of the markets. It's hard to imagine now, but stamp collectors were more numerous than coin collectors back then.
There was just an absolute cliff for stamps. The APS membership dropped by 60% in a decade. And given the higher printings of most stamp issues there was just a huge glut of material.
Slabs also never caught on with the stamp folks. Registry sets of stamps might have increased competition for even common material as it has done for coins.
You could see it on the late 1990s. The age of folks at stamp shows was much higher than coin shows. And while there are large presences of young coin collectors on Instagram and other social media, I see no similar presence for (nonexistent?) young stamp folks.
When the Hunt's took up the price of silver, it showed there would be a value floor depending on metal content. This made even mid or lower condition coins valuable to keep or sell for metal.
I was a kid in the 60's and 70's. Our little town had a stamp club rather than a coin club. Out of boredom I would go to some of their meetings. To this day I am friends with a few people from back then. Here is what they told me killed stamp collecting.
1. The cost of collecting supplies became steeper and steeper.
2. The U.S. Postal service started putting out so many different products no one could Keep up. (a warning about too many commemorative issues I imagine)
3. Every pundit and so called expert railed that "Only the rarest stamps are worthy of collecting". As several of them said. The experts got their wish. Everyone looked down on collecting anything that didn't have a 5 figure price tag. Favorite phrase of the pundits, "Most expensive piece of paper in the world!" , when suggesting what to collect. #1 reason I despise anyone who rails "Only buy key dates!"
I reentered the coin world as a young adult in 1987 while in the USN, and then became more active when I got out in 1989, so I may have some insight. I had been exposed to coins and stamps in my Elementary school years, but had never considered them again since I had turned about 12 or 13.
I mainly chose coins over stamps (and currency) due to the more "tangible" nature of the collectable. That is to say that I felt more comfortable in the weight and tactile presence of a coin, and even some "inherent security" in the metal content of those WLH's I had started collecting right at first (I mostly collected 30's and 40's EF/AU WLH's and some type coins that fascinated me in the beginning).
I also think coins where much easier in the pre-internet days to learn about, and also to view and buy (or sell) on a regular basis. The overall lack of venues and more difficult access information also caused me to look at stamps as a much more esoteric world (in some orders of magnitude). In fact, had it not been for Fractional Currency and the propensity of coin dealers to also handle currency, I may never have started down that road either.
There were not a lot of collectors my age, and not many coming into the hobby. But then, what constitutes young? I was very young, comparatively (26 in 1990), and other than a couple collectors my age, and some that were making a profession of it that were a few years older than me. Otherwise it seemed to be a few kids (pre- and early teen), and then the late-30's/40-plus and older crowd. Although I heard a lot of the younger end of that crowd got disenchanted with the turmoil that transpired during the crash in 1989, it seemed there was a new crop every few years or so. People have always thought they could get rich fairly quick here, and that may have also contributed to the rise of coins over stamps ... the overall marketing and mythology of the trading side of the hobby.
Since I haven't always been active, especially between mid '93 and late '99 (business and family) and then again between early '13 and the end if '19 (family and other reasons), I don't have a good continuous view of what the market felt like inside (or just outside) of the ropes. But today, I think there are a LOT more young collectors (let's call the dividing line at 40), and as a group, overall, they are far more advanced than most of us "young ones" were in the early '90's.
my 2c ...
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
That's probably the biggest factor, and it probably best explains why coins have continued to attract fresh blood.
Fresh crops of young collectors and dealers began with the riches to be earned from the release of silver dollars from Treasury vaults in 58-60, the proof set and roll boom in the early sixties, pulling silver and silver certificates from circulation in the mid-sixties, the rush to import and trade gold coins when legalized in the early 70's, the inflation and Hunt brothers fueled boom of 79-80, and the grading game beginning in the 80's. Unlike the stamp market, which offered far fewer opportunities to get rich.
Makes me wonder where future opportunites will arise.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I think it's because (when used for their common and original purposes) stamps are "throw-aways". They typically just have a one-time use, after that they're usually just discarded. Even those that are kept are often "damaged" in some way. Often by being post marked and even collectable items being damaged or even destroyed by their storage methods. That makes taking the step into "collecting" them a bigger jump than it would be for coins and paper money that have a pretty much universally accepted value (even if only face) for many years after their original use. Or, as my signature says.... 😉
I enjoy everyone's comments above. I like the "finding a gem in a rock pile" analogy. The world is full of partially filled Whitman coin and H.E. Harris stamp albums with worthless items inside. The decline in stamp collecting has been discussed over and over. I believe that the new stamp market is filled with mature and knowledgeable collectors (just like coins) that want nice items and do not want to fill a "book". We all know that everything has been over dipped, doctored, reperfed, repaired etc. We have paid the price of admission to learn and want certified and/or graded material.
Coin collectors have embraced Third Party Grading with our host being a very nice example. Look at PCGS's "My Inventory" for example. What a wonderful way to organize your coins. The Registry, etc. I tried to explain this to a stamp TPG company and they thought I had lobsters growing out of my ears.
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Certified and/or graded stamps seem to be doing alright but I would never think of them as an investment. I think of them as a hobby. When I invest in a hobby I buy Carson City Morgans.
And besides...stamp collectors are a strange lot anyhow...LOL...just my 2 cents...take care...
To keep it coin related...it took two of these to buy this stamp.
CC
I prefer collecting metal (silver coins in my case) than paper collectibles. Stamps are a nice hobby to have and most likely cheap nowadays vs collecting coins. I don't like handling fragile collectibles like stamps gets to my OCD.
Coin collecting interests: Latin America
Sports: NFL & NHL
It is a shame that the stamp world has taken such a hit. They really are,pre 65 especially, artistic works of art. And by their images reflect much of our history.
I haven't looked in quite some time, but it's amazing to see "magnificent" stamp collections on Ebay, my guess is that the collector may have passed. The collections are sometime priced at only a few hundred dollars, and they still don't sell.
My guess is that the family of the deceased, brought it to a number of hobby shops in their area, and the guy behind the counter wouldn't even make them an offer on it.
I began collecting coins and stamps in the 1960's. I think stamp collecting is cool, but I always liked coins better. I think even as a kid, I saw coins as money in which I didn't see stamps that way. The joy and thrill of collecting a store of money, outweighed the interest in collecting stamps which I didn't perceive as a store of money.
I haven't added to my stamp collection in a very long time, in the way of directly buying a specific stamp. Only when I've bought a large lot of coins, and some stamps happen to be in there, have stamps been added to the collection. I don't even place the stamps in the binder, just throw them in a shoebox or whatever.
I'm pretty good at prediction but never would have thought stamps would tank so badly. I never imagined so many people had set aside so many first class stamps over the years in pristine condition.
I believe some day stamps will come roaring back. I doubt sheets of stamps from after the '40's will but there are so many really neat stamps that can be had for a song because there are no buyers. It's a great time to be a stamp collector if you don't extend yourself too much.
Personally I've never seen the attraction. That's just me.
That might change if I spent some time learning about them and studying the hobby.
At a glimpse it's simply not for me.
Student of numismatics and collector of Morgan dollars
Successful BST transactions with: Namvet Justindan Mattniss RWW olah_in_MA
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However, there is nothing more pleasing to see than an album page of nice stamps.
Scott #?
The engraving on 19th century pictorials like the Columbian series are absolutely works of art.
Yes...there is nothing more pleasing than an album page of nice stamps. Can't argue that...Scott #454 PSE 95...pop 7/0. Stamps give you color, perhaps why collectors like toned coins...a bit of color from the normal. We can also take our stamps out and play with them. Better post a coin...take care...CC
CC
Coins will never have the handicap stamps are faced with, namely, they are small pieces of paper. Those interested in coins made of nobler metals will always have that basis, until society decides gold, silver, etc. have no value.
Want to set a dyed-in-the-wool OLD stamp person ranting and foaming at the mouth, mention slabs for stamps to them. Like Homer's father Abe Simpson, they'll commence shouting at the clouds and at anyone who (won't) listen what a travesty the very idea of such a thing is. I do wonder if eventually, long-time stamp auctioneers such as Siegel's will, eventually, find their rich clientele either expire from this mortal coil and/or lose interest before they do.
But all that said I enjoy stamps very much, and like many of the type of issues Dan Carr showed. Not surprisingly, it works for Dan as he marches to the beat of his own drum in a lot of ways (in my view) and, again in my view, that's a great and satisfying way to live your life.
Growing up as a kid in NJ, I collected both stamps and coins. But until the 1980s, many houses didn’t have central air conditioning.
On hot, humid days, my dad would crank up the attic (whole house) fan, sucking outside (humid) air through the entire house. Once all my stamps curled up and stuck together, I gave up stamps. Coins were more tolerant of storage conditions.
You might say that CAC (central air conditioning) facilitated stamp collecting.
By the way, notice how the Smithsonian has an entire museum dedicated to philately. And it’s a very interesting museum, even for non-philatelists.
But there is virtually nothing in the way of publicly-visible coins at the Smithsonian, let alone a whole museum.
It could be because each stamp is different and tells a little bit of history different from one another.
Whereas coins are by and large all the same except the date, and mostly “boring” to most people.
So I have heard from those who'd claim "they all (coins) look the same and how boring is that" (actually heard from a comic collector.) But metal is metal and it can be a store of value. Stamps ultimately are delightful bits of paper (as are comics.) To each their own!
A bit off topic, but back then, serious stamp collectors stored their stamps in glassine type envelopes. While kids played with their baseball cards.
A basic "problem" was, I would say that likely millions of stamp collectors from around the 1960's, give or take a decade or so, stored their treasured stamps in glassine envelopes, and so there are countless numbers of pristine stamps available from that era. Today's supply of mint condition stamps from that era, far exceeds the demand. Whereby sometimes if not often, sellers can't even get face value for these stamps.
On the other hand, the few stamp collectors who had the rare foresight to store baseball cards in this manner with the glassine envelopes, keeping them in pristine condition, are worth a small if not large fortune. If you're not familiar with the card collecting hobby, take a look at what Mickey Mantle baseball cards, graded PSA 10 sell for. You might be shocked.
In all fairness, coins such as early 1960's proof sets, haven't really appreciated either. If it wasn't for the marked increase in the value of silver since then, these 1960's proof sets, except for rare cameos, wouldn't have increased at all, sort of like the mint stamps.
In the 1980's I was heavily involved in both coin and stamp collecting. In general, stamp collectors were older than coin collectors. At one of our stamp club meetings, probably around 1985, I predicted that stamp collecting would decline due to the aging collector population and the near total lack of young people entering the field. My comments were not received kindly by the other members.
In the early 1990s there was a seeming worldwide explosion of new issues. Booklets and souvenir sheets seemed to multiply like weeds. Collectors became disenchanted with the amount they were having to spend on new issues, especially if they collected many country's issues. This is what drove me out of stamp collecting at that time.
Next came the "self-stick" issues. These also raised the cost of collecting because a collector now needed an entire sheet and not a single. Plate block collecting became more or less impossible with the self stick issues.
I have mentioned stamp collecting to my 20-something relations. They just roll their eyes and wonder why anyone would collect stamps.
Yeah. You can't give away Picasso artwork. The paper and canvas handicap is just too much to overcome
I agree. There is no better time to collect stamps.
Out of curiosity I looked at some stamp listings on EBay. I noticed there are some in hard plastic graded slabs. If that catches on perhaps there would be increased demand for rarer issues? It seems that slabs should provide more assurance to novices like myself as well as making stamps easy to store along with coins and baseball cards.
Instead of using coin-like slabs for stamps, I would encourage some company to offer sealed and graded holders that are more like miniature currency.
My Dad collected both, and we collected coins together. I could not relate to the thick paper binders he had them attached to with those corner things and wax paper or something sometimes covering them. They were too delicate and fragile to hold and thumb through while in the huge overflowing heavy binder. I also felt that storing them was problematic due to their delicate nature. And lastly they were not attractive in the least.
Coins on the other hand were exactly the opposite and of course the fact that you can hold them and admire their designs and imagine their difficulty to manufacturer and the fact that one needed vastly fewer coins than the mountains of stamps swayed me .
I hate stamps, and love coins & medals.
Expertizing of stamps predates slabbing by more than a decade. They've been slabbing stamps for a long as they've been slabbing coins. It has never really caught on with stamp collectors.
P.S. slabs are NOT easier to store for coins, cards or stamps.
There are a lot of interesting (and rare) stamp items that do not cost very much. Like this Togo (French Colonial) 500 Francs, proof impression on a large card, and hand signed by the engraver. This type of proof would be akin to a master die impression of a coin. Albert Decaris was the last person to win an Olympic Gold Medal in Engraving (yes, they did have such a thing, but it was discontinued after the 1948 London Olympics):
It could also be because Bill Gross donated $8 million to fund the Smithsonian's stamp gallery.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Great discussion here with wonderful examples.
I inherited a stamp collection (more an accumulation) that was a assembled from the 40’s-1970’s.
The collector, who also wrote a stock market and investment newsletter, believed strongly that stamps were a great investment. I still have some of his newsletters sent to paying subscribers- where he strongly advised purchasing mint sheets, and in some cases- entire pads (100 sheets) from the post office.
Sadly, when I went to sell some of these pads, I’d be very lucky to get close to face value- some 60 years later.
Terrible rate of return there! Fortunately though, he had the good notion to also load up on 90% silver coinage in large quantities in 1964 as they were transitioning to clad! That investment paid off! Another great case in support of diversification. :-)
In any case, in going through this material, I was enchanted by the quality of some of the art and engraving seen on some older issues and like @dcarr, I developed a taste for some of the materials. I previously had collected and enjoyed beautiful bank notes and these were very similar, though of course, much smaller. Many were bargains in comparison to bank notes from the same regions and time frames. To compensate for the frustrations of viewing very small stamps, I took high quality photos and would enjoy them on screen. Sometimes I even printed and framed some pieces- displaying them as artwork.
This said, I’m still mostly a coin guy- though the stamps have been fun and cheap entertainment!
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
Maybe this also contributes to a lack of stamp collecting interest. With coins there are 2 sides you can admire. Stamps only one side. Unless a gummy back is your thing.
That stamp and Buffalo would make a nice presentation display with the $5 Chief note and a few Indian gold coins.
I tend to like Philatelic items that are cross-overs from Numismatics, like a few I posted already. Here are a couple circa 1864 revenue stamps. These would be relatively common and not worth much. But of interest on these particular stamps is the cancellation by "E.H. Gruber & Co." (of Clark-Gruber fame).
The way stamp people obsess over original gum, there are 2 sides. Lol. A local guy was going to do a display at the APS with all the stamps mounted face down.
A local guy did this with the Bison side and a $10 business note.
Paper money is another underappreciated pairing with coins, in my opinion. There's a lot of fun topical possibilities and the paper really adds color.
Love revenues. A lot of match and medicine possibilities also, some of which can be paired with tokens from the same companies.
@dcarr said:
I tend to like Philatelic items that are cross-overs from Numismatics, like a few I posted already. Here are a couple circa 1864 revenue stamps. These would be relatively common and not worth much. But of interest on these particular stamps is the cancellation by "E.H. Gruber & Co." (of Clark-Gruber fame).
I also like the USMint and/or Federal Reserve bags with the tags attached as you showed in your previous post. The specific one you showed from the Denver US Mint in 1921 is awesome. I had never seen that one before. The postage stamps affixed to the tags had no interest to me, interestingly enough.
Holy mackeral, these were sent to Virgil Brand, a famous coin guy in 1915!
Sorry, this batch was bought by Virgil Brand!
And these works of art are available as souvenir sheets (1992) for slightly above face value (around $16). Quite a few 19th century issues have been reproduced by the USPS, and these reproductions make for a nice looking set of classic stamp designs for not much money.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
