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Desert Shield packs from an old group rip from BBCE
EchoCanyon
Posts: 2,283 ✭✭✭
About 10-12 years ago -- when I was more active on the boards -- I participated in yet another group buy from BBCE (yes, addicting).
This time, I bought 2 Desert Shield packs, plus some other fun stuff.
Looking at them now (see pics), there's no indication that they are in fact, Desert Shield.
Any way to get this authenticated?
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I have the same ones from that break. Someone opened theirs at that time and they were DS. Do you still have the old school handwritten receipt from BBCE? I kept it with mine. I also seem to recall someone sending theirs in a few years ago and having it repacked, but it was still not PSA graded.
I don't, but since you have yours, can you send me a PM with the 'date' -- as maybe Steve/BBCE could look it up.
And I was thinking about having them PSA graded
PSA will not holder these with the Desert Shield designation. The BBCE packaging is as good as it gets with these.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Lynwood...that's old school...2nd or 3rd location for the Exchange...
Found it. 3/5/13. Will try to post a pic. The prices on the things available are...astonishing.
Many thanks.
And you can see on the left edge, mine are in the same packaging from BBCE as yours and Grocery's.
I think you only really have one option here.
Time for a Christmas Eve rip!!!!!
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I know Craig is joking mostly but your testimony and the BBCE packaging would be enough for me if I was looking for a DS pack. Steve won’t authenticate DS anymore so whatever is left is all there is.
Aka: $$$$$$$
Box at National was $40K so you already got approx 1000% return right there.
yes I was joking, but, i did not know Steve had stopped authenticating DS. When did that happen? Also, as the OP mentioned, there is absolutely no indication anywhere that the packs in question are in fact DS. now, 10 years out from the break, how would those packs ever get sold? there is no provenance other than a receipt.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
S> @craig44 said:
So that is the mystery wrapped in a riddle, how to sell these ...
unfortunately, for about 99% of potential buyers, what you have here are 2 packs of 1991 topps. worth about $1. It is a shame, really. I believe them to be from that break, and probably others here do as well. But unfortunately that does not translate to Ebay or other auction houses.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I know what you mean. I still have mine from that break. I wonder if Steve would be willing to re-wrap with something more clear that it is a DS pack (or from a believed to be DS box).
Edit to add - it's hard to believe that break was 10 years ago. Where does the time go?!
I would think Steve would probably re-wrap and designate Desert Shield. Bought packs from him later than this and he marked those.
No reason he would have sealed them and put his business card in if they were not Desert Shield.
I'm pretty sure this is as good if not better than a sealed rack pack.
I just rotated the pic so you could see Lynwood...
To many this is as good as it gets unopened for DS. Many would be happy to pay a premium including myself…
If you keep the pack sealed in the plastic case from BBCE, that is market acceptable for a DS pack and will carry the premium. DO NOT OPEN the case.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I have a pack like that from the exact same break. I have thought about bringing it to Steve to add additional wrap - but as Grote says, the original case with card sealed is pretty good provenance
My collecting blog: http://ctcard.wordpress.com
I would agree when it comes to the BBCE cellophane-wrapped/labeled packs. When it comes to the sealed packs with business cards, I would disagree. there is nothing there that delineates those packs as DS at all.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I have one as well. I'm sure Steve would confirm he's never wrapped regular 91 Topps packs like that... they are all DS. So I think the only factor is an untamperred encasing/wrap.
I wish mine had the DS handwriting from BBCE that other people have shared.
Those of us who are familiar with the provenance and the back story on these know what they are. I wouldn't hesitate buying Gregg's pack if I were looking for one. Same with the old school BBCE wrapped boxes with the gold business card, which actually command a premium in many cases as they predate the submission of put together boxes by collectors. You could always ask Steve to review it, too. The vintage unopened community is a tightly-knit one and the most reputable individuals are well known by many.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I agree. Now that I have seen the later variation that would be much preferred.
The issue is that once all the break participants and steve are dead, no one is going to know that they are DS packs.... just a crappy 91 pack purchased from some random card shop listed on the biz card! I'm really surprised that steve didn't make any kind of identification when he encased those packs...
that’s not my BBCE wrapped gold business card box…
the wrap & gold business card is from the Munster store; I believe that’s BBCE 2nd store….
That is actually my box!
Purchased direct from BBCE many years ago.
Here is the front:
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Back then the group rips were just that and many participants would just rip the packs they got (prices were a fraction of what they are today, too). That was also in the early days of BBCE wrapping and authentication of unopened product long before it exploded into a full time industry with monogrammed shrinkwrap, BBCE stickers, holograms, etc. None of the packs back then were wrapped at all. The cases with the gold business card on back were standard protocol for the "special" packs in that particular break, same as full boxes which were simply shrinkwrapped with a gold business card placed underneath the clear wrap.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
BBCE should offer a re-wrap service like PSA offers a reholder service!
Steve will rewrap any box or item if requested, and charges a lot less than what PSA does for reholdering cards!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I would have to agree with @RufussCkingston on the DS packs. I am also pretty skeptical on the future provenance of the earlier cellophane/business card wrapped boxes.
I fully understand the serious unopened community is pretty tightly knit, but as time goes on, and that community ages out/passes on, what will people have with the older wraped packs/boxes? If Steve will rewrap those early packs/boxes, I would be getting mine done. Although it was mentioned above that Steve no longer authenticates DS packs?
It also seems very easy to fake those earlier wrapped boxes. it seems it is simply a cellophane wrap and a business card. That coupled with the fact that most of those boxes will never be opened would certainly make me feel far from confident in what is underneath the wrap.
I think (for a while now) that psa/steve should be moving away from cellophane and more towards some sort of case perhaps like GAI used to use for boxes.
If China can fake modern cards, monogrammed shrink wrap wouldnt be that difficult.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Craig, your chronic pessimism of unopened is boring. You never miss an opportunity to take a shot predictably.
Did I miss the mark somewhere with my comment?
I think pessimism is called for here, especially with the older wrapped product. Think about it. All that there is to prove these older boxes have been authenticated is a sheet of shrinkwrap and a business card. does that give you confidence? How difficult would that be for counterfeiters to replicate? Slice shrink wrap, search or replace packs, and reshrink wrap with the business card.
The vast, vast amount of these "authenticated" boxes will not be unwrapped. at least by the original owner. The bad guys know this.
Think of my comment as less of a "shot" and more of a warning to those who may be considering spending large sums on such things.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Anyone who is concerned with the wrap of a box/rack/etc can get it rewrapped by Steve/BBCE at any time for a very nominal fee. As an unopened collector, I dont necessarily need my boxes wrapped to begin with and keep most of them unwrapped so I can enjoy looking at the contents. In fact, I've stripped the shrinkwrap on cello and rack boxes in several cases as I enjoy looking at the packs within the box.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Speaking of vintage unopened, some exciting news from Jason Simonds of Heritage Auctions:
Just wanted to share a few boxes we got back from BBCE recently consigned to Heritage. A 1965 Topps full box, 1965 partial box (19 packs), 1966 Topps full box and 1966 partial box (14 packs). These came from the family of a significant collection of sports cards including some amazing unopened material. These will be up in January and February.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I dont blame you, I would want my boxes open too so I could look at my packs as well. The rewrap by Steve is something that should be done by those with the older boxes in my opinion.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
and if you ask Steve, you can also get a nifty hologram sticker on the wrap...
In fact, I've stripped the shrink wrap on cello and rack boxes in several cases as I enjoy looking at the packs within the box.
There is No Way that I could Ever bring myself to deactivate the BBCE wrap....
This isn't a shot at Steve - who has been a massive net positive to the hobby - or unopened, but those early wraps would be ridiculously easy to fake. Even the new stuff, anyone that is really motivated could very easily mimic. Shrinkwrap is not a modern means of authentication,
And the fact that there is no registry and that none of the high end stuff gets opened makes it the perfect scam. And this hobby is full of scammers so you can bet your life someone has figured out how to make this stuff.
That's why I strip the shrinkwrap off the boxes to inspect the packs within. I collect boxes not shrinkwrap (and you can always very easily get the boxes rewrapped if you desire). I have kept the 78 box pictured above sealed as I purchased it direct from Steve many years ago, but I plan to open that box one day, too..and pull a pack with Murray RC face out on back!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I may be in the minority but as I said earlier, EchoCanyon's pack with the business card and the provenance would be good enough for me. Would it be good enough for an eBay sale as a legit DS pack in 2045? Likely no. Also, I think the odds that Steve would rewrap EchoCanyon's DS packs with DS label are very low. Keep them in current state and hope to sell to a ripper someday I suppose. I still think they're awesome!
REA sold a similar pack to mine (no mention of DS) last summer for 1K:
https://bid.robertedwardauctions.com/bids/bidplace?itemid=114398
Folks on this board are already killing us off!
My collecting blog: http://ctcard.wordpress.com
Craig brings up a very relevant point that I think was lost a bit in the rush to defend Steve/BBCE. An early BBCE wrapped box or DS pack would be absurdly easy to fake if you had the business card. You either swap out the packs or replicate the business card, then rewrap and sell knowing that many high end box collectors never rip the box/pack. The shrinkwrap is completely plain with no logos or holograms so no problem there. You could sell a few before the sharp folks at Blowout would post you up in those scammer threads. (And side note - I'm so grateful for the detectives over there who are exposing fraud. I hope some of these guys they expose get prosecuted and do time.)
I think the way forward for BBCE eventually is what you describe with GAI using plastic cases and possibly a registry for high end boxes. Many collectors already pay premium amounts to buy Fortress boxes for their already shrinkwrapped product.
On why BBCE stopped authenticating DS boxes - I'm pretty sure it's because they ran out of product. If I recall, the way they were authenticated in the past is Steve would open 2 or 3 sample packs from a box, if they all came out DS he would replace those packs in the box with existing packs he had in stock and then wrap the whole thing. This could only go on for so long until you run out of product. I would guess the only packs they have left were put up for sale with that $40,000 box at National.
It's been quite awhile. Perhaps it's time for another BBCE group break just in time for the holidays.
This is why provenance matters. And while those early boxes would be easy to fake, you can also very easily strip the cellophane to check the contents yourself, or send the box to Steve to get it rewrapped for which he charges a very nominal fee (less than what PSA charges for reholdering a card).
For me, personally, the early boxes are also more desirable as there is less likelihood that the box was "put together" when Steve was selling them directly and not yet wrapping for the public.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Stupid question here coming from someone who's never owned a pack of these, but can you not see through the pack to see the DS emblem on the top card?
Good thought.... but NO! Both sides are the back of the card, with the gum in the middle..
See 2 minute mark...