SOME Recent CACG Auction Sales Compared to "Similar" Non-CAC coins
winesteven
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Admittedly, these have been hand-picked by CACG to show, but if someone feels there's a sense that almost as many or more can be shown with the opposite conclusion, feel free to share. but don't just show one or two very recent exceptions - please show several. I did NOT do research to find contradictory results.
The first seven below are sales of coins in CACG holders, the last three coins with CAC stickers:
- On Oct. 1, at 07:08:09 PM Pacific Time, GreatCollections sold a CACG graded MS-66 1905 Lewis & Clark commemorative One Dollar Gold coin for $18,356.80. Three seconds earlier, at 07:08:06 PM Pacific Time, GreatCollections sold a PCGS graded 1905 Lewis & Clark One Dollar Gold coin, without a CAC sticker, for $7,052.62.
- On Oct. 22, GreatCollections sold a CACG graded MS-67 1923 Peace silver dollar for $5775. On July 21, Heritage sold a PCGS graded MS-67 1923 dollar, without a CAC sticker, for $3360. On May 5, Heritage auctioned a different PCGS graded MS-67 1923 dollar, without a CAC sticker, for $4080. Although CAC has been affixing stickers to acceptable PCGS or NGC graded coins since 2007, the CACG grading service, with its own CACG holders, is new in 2023.
- On Oct. 22, GreatCollections sold a CACG graded MS-67 1942-D half dollar for $2093.30. On May 30, Heritage sold a PCGS graded MS-67 1942-D half, without a CAC sticker, for $576. On May 9, Heritage sold another PCGS graded MS-67 1942-D half dollar, without a CAC sticker, for $720.
- On Oct. 22, GreatCollections sold a CACG graded MS-67 1937 half dollar for $1760. On May 9, Heritage sold a PCGS graded MS-67 1937 half, without a CAC sticker, for $900. On April 27, Legend auctioned a different PCGS graded MS-67 1937 half, without a CAC sticker, for $1175.
- On Oct. 22, GreatCollections sold a CACG graded MS-67 Gettysburg commemorative half dollar for $1925. On Aug. 7, Heritage sold a PCGS graded MS-67 Gettysburg commemorative half dollar, without a CAC sticker, for $1500.
- On Oct. 22, GreatCollections sold a CACG graded MS-65 1911-D $20 gold coin for $4400. On July 21, Heritage sold a PCGS graded MS-65 1911-D, without a CAC sticker, for $2880. On Feb. 9, Heritage sold a different PCGS graded MS-65 1911-D, without a CAC sticker, for $3360.
- On Oct. 22, GreatCollections sold a CACG graded MS-66 Maryland Tercentenary commemorative half dollar for $429. CAC graded coins were encapsulated in the new CAC office in Virginia and are in new CACG holders. CAC approved coins are in PCGS or NGC holders with CAC stickers. From now on, CAC graded coins will be referred to as CACG. On July 24, Heritage sold four PCGS graded MS-66 Maryland half dollars, not one of which had a CAC sticker, for $252, $228, $228 and $222, respectively. A CACG certified MS-66 coin thus brought twice as much as each of four different PCGS graded MS-66 Maryland commemorative halves.
- On Oct. 18, Heritage auctioned a CAC approved, NGC graded AU-58 1908-S $5 gold coin for $4440. On May 10, Stack’s Bowers sold a PCGS graded AU-58 1908-S, without a CAC sticker, for $3120. On Nov. 23, 2022, Heritage sold a different PCGS graded AU-58 1908-S, without a CAC sticker, for this same price, $3120.
- On Oct. 9, Heritage sold a CAC approved MS-65 grade 1893 Isabella quarter for $2100. On Oct. 18, Heritage sold a PCGS graded MS-65 1893 Isabella quarter, without a CAC sticker, for $810.
- On Oct. 9, Heritage sold a CAC approved MS-63 grade 1900 Lafayette commemorative silver dollar for $2520. On Sept. 17, Heritage sold a PCGS graded MS-63 1900 Lafayette dollar, without a CAC sticker, for $1740.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
7
Comments
Interesting that the examples are very commem-heavy. Not sure what that means but I’m impressed that folks still collect these.
Thanks for the analysis @winesteven When I have time I would like to look into how much people have been willing to spend for CACG Legacy coins that were in NGC CAC holders. A few that I have seen showed people will pay more for the same coin if in CACG over NGC. NGC CAC coins often sit on dealers websites. The CACG coins sell pretty fast.
Successful BST with drddm, BustDMs, Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
There's no way at all to determine from the CACG holder if the coin had been NGC vs. PCGS. One would have to do research to try and find the matching coin.
I did NOT do the above analysis. This came from CACG/CDN.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I made this point a few days ago on a thread and a couple of members here shut down your premise.
Apparently, any examples given, such as those above, are hyperbole.
Yes there are people that will bid them way up. It doesn’t mean I will. That coin that went for $18k vs $7k that difference goes for many months for one’s food bill, auto exp, bullion coin survival stock, entertainment, etc. Take your pick.
Yesterday I made a list of some CACG coins on eBay bin vs CAC CPG. One coin a red field hoard piece priced at $200 vs it’s $80 CAC cpg, another priced at $600 vs it’s $400 CAC cpg. I tracked another one on AS it went 1.92 x it’s CAC CDN bid. At this time there are very few of these coins in the marketplace population wise, even generic Dollars. Will more be released / I don’t know. I did pickup a CACG piece for a grading set putting together 95 pct CPG bin. It’s nice for the grade but not something pay 2x bid for. I can easily find other TPG pieces just as nice or nicer for less. Beyond the grading set (advertising exhibit at cost plus for when setup shows) just not a payer at that elevated level on that material.
I’m not at all surprised by the results. Bottom line is most coins in a CACG holder (legacy or non legacy) are perceived by collectors and dealers to be more accurately graded and higher quality than their PCGS counterparts and have a higher valuation. Whether that interpretation is correct or not is a conversation for another day.
I never doubted that CACG would sell for more than PCGS, but the real question is how they measure up to PCAC.
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Not "hyperbole". "Anecdotal".
Your point was not the same. You were talking about a premium for CACG over PCGS/CAC. This comparison is CACG to non-CAC coins from the other services. "CAC" coins always carry a premium over "non-CAC" coins. What has been, and still largely is, unknown is whether CACG coins will carry the "CAC" premium.
How do CACG prices compare to PGCS and NGC prices for the same coin with a CAC sticker.
Assuming that the grades would be the same would you rather have a coin in a CACG holder or a PCGS holder with the bean?
Greysheet Bid/CPG MS66 6900/8620 MS66-CAC 15,500/18,600
The price for both coins is consistent with the Greysheet pricing.
Greysheet Bid/CPG MS67 3400/4250 MS67-CAC 4900/6120
So, again, the prices are consistent with the Greysheet pricing.
Grey Bid/CPG MS67 575/748 MS67 CAC 690/897
This coin shows a premium over current guide. Is it white or does it have color?
Grey Bid/CPG MS67 950/1220 MS-67 cAC 1140/1420
This coin shows a slight premium over current grey. Again, is it white or does it have color?
Grey Bid/CPG MS67 1150/1440 MS-67 CAC 2150/2690
The prices here are consistent with grey but the CACG coin traded at a slight discount.
Grey Bid/CPG MS65 3300/4120 MS65 CAC 4400/4500
Again, in-line
Grey Bid/CPG MS66 235/306 MS-66 CAC 275/358
Very slight premium over guide
Grey Bid/CPG AU58 3300/4120, aU58CAC 4500/5620
In line.
GRey Bid/CPG MS65 810/1040 MS65 CAC 1400/1750
Grey Bid/CPG MS63 1350/1690 MS63CAC 1552/1940
Overall, the CACG prices seem in line with the X-CAC pricing as reflected in the Greysheet. So, at least at this point, this limited set of data suggests the market is pricing CACG as it would X-CAC coins.
[Contrary to other allegations, there does not appear to be some kind of huge CACG premium over the normal CAC premium.]
The 18k/7k difference is the same price guide difference as any CAC coin of the type.
Answering your question ONLY for myself:
Since the PCGS Registry is important to me (AND I'll be able to use my PCGS holdered coins in the upcoming CACG Registry), I prefer a PCGS holder with a CAC sticker.
However, with that said, since CACG recognizes plus grades, and CAC stickers ignore plus grades on NGC and PCGS holders, I personally would value a CACG holder with a PLUS grade as higher value than a PCGS holder in a plus grade with a CAC sticker, since we don't know if in CAC's opinion this latter coin is solid at the plus grade. We do know that PCGS feels the plus is appropriate. We also know that with a CACG holder with a plus grade, that in CACG's opinion that plus grade they gave is warranted. That's why I value that higher than the PCGS plus grade coin with the CAC sticker! In my opinion, from what we've seen so far (admittedly is limited), CACG grading is more conservative (tighter) than PCGS grading, so if CACG says a coin is a plus, I feel a bit more confident compared to only PCGS indicating in their opinion that a coin is a plus.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Last week, there were zero CACG graded Jefferson nickels listed on Ebay with two selling in Sept. But now, there are two listed, all by two dealers. I noticed they, the acronym CACG, is not on their holders. Instead, CAC is the acronym being used on their holders. One of the dealers has seen fit to list both acronyms, CACG and CAC in the titles of his listings. So I went back and searched for just the CAC acronym and the other dealer's coin was not listed and likely b/c CAC is not in their auction title. 🤣
So...which title is it, CACG or CAC are we to refer to this new cgc by? Mind you, CACG is not on their slabs!
Having to include/list/type out both acronyms, CACG and CAC in every auction listing/title seems, to me anyways, a bit confusing and some auction listings are not going to turn up in a search.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I like the CAC green bean on The CACG holders. Going forward (preference) if buying any CAC product a buyer of CACG coins. However if part of lump sum multiple coin deal (estate) would buy the stickered CAC too. In that arena I take it all.
I like consistency - It does not make sense to me that CDN would have a seperate price on the 2. From a pricing pov see them as one inventory pricing class. My last read on that it’s a wait and see from their end.
Description wise notice many using CACG / CAC for those slabs. Similar to PCGS / CAC. Like my FB roster in College FB game - one type of Safety chase down expert (4-2-5 def), another downfield spy.
You are correct that "CACG" does not appear on the holders of coins graded by CACG, as only "CAC" appears on those holders. So yes, there can be (and probably is, and will be) confusion. As such, I would hope that sellers of coins would clarify, especially if no photos of the holder is shown, if a coin is graded by CACG (in their holder) or just stickered by CAC in a PCGS or NGC holder.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
FWIW - appears that CAC has adopted CACG for CAC graded coins, at least for their "news".
Source: https://www.cacgrading.com/news/cac-coins-bring-premiums-in-october-2023
Yes. The company is CAC but they (we) have to be able to differentiate the grading service from the sticker service.
When the U.S. mint releases a new product, they are initially in short supply, certified populations are low, and speculators sometimes cause a price bubble. As time goes on and more get certified, that price bubble often bursts.
When CACG releases a new product, they are initially in short supply, certified populations are low, and ________________???
Keep in mind we are still in a period of scarcity, novelty, and hype for CACG graded coins. I would expect it to take another 6 months or so for the hype to die down and the market to saturate with more offerings.
http://ProofCollection.Net
The same thing was said roughly 14 years ago or so when CAC stickering started. Stickered coins were in short supply, so they were gobbled up. But what happened over time? The CAC sticker pricing differential over non stickered coins has not only grown, but has solidified itself.
So with the new CACG new product release, they are initially in short supply, certified populations are low (ALL like before), and ____________________??? I see a different answer in the blank than you, for the reasons described.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
@jmlanzaf’s analysis shows they’re mostly on par with CAC CPG. Though CACG is a new product, CAC and the associated premiums are not. While I agree that there may have been somewhat of a novelty premium with some coins, I think many here are not giving enough credence to the fact that CACg was created to emulate the function of a sticker, which so far appears to be successful.
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And that premium must remain for them to be successful. Time will tell. The current Market Judgment appears to be X-CAC, CACG equivalence. That's nice for the anti-CAC crowd because they can smoothly evolve into the anti-CACG crowd.
"And that premium must remain for them to be successful. Time will tell. The current Market Judgment appears to be X-CAC, CACG equivalence. That's nice for the anti-CAC crowd because they can smoothly evolve into the anti-CACG crowd."
POTD
peacockcoins
I feel like this thread belongs on the CACG forum, not the PCGS forum.
I'm BACK!!! Used to be Billet7 on the old forum.
Doesn't it belong on both? It's comparing the two.
When it comes to PCGS CAC'ed coins and CACG a seasoned Numismatist stated this to me:
"I am not bothered by the high price of top-end, beautiful, and rare coins, it's the high price of mediocre coins/dreck that's the problem."
peacockcoins
Interesting - Never realized the holder / sticker game could be so complex. Knowing how to grade and look at coins - The holder / sticker combo means nothing to me as it is the coin and it’s quality, procurement cost, and potential to sell at a good margin. I do recall reading a Legacy thing over there….for me I would wonder what it looked like when it went in the holder and how much any tarnish problems could have worsened its quality over time. Then got bored with their going around and around on which holder lol. Larry had one of those guys spouting the Legacy thing at his table at a show told him “This coin is so badly tarnished and low end do you think I care? Wonder how long been in this holder?” The guy left quickly. Stuffed in the backfield.
If "potential to sell at a good margin" matters to you, then you need to be aware of the sticker and slab influence on price.
I see also on 8/14/2023 Heritage sold a MS66 Maryland CAC for $299.00. PCGS Price Guide is $375. CAC Price Guide is $358.
One doesn't need to always overpay for a CAC.
Not all 66 CACs are created equal
What I learned from all of this ...
.
1. not all coins are created equal
2. market perception of grading standards applied by current certification changes price points for coins that are not equal in the first place
3. market perception changes over time
.
Oh, and most importantly ... on October 22nd, I turned 59 ... and I am still vertical and as ornery as ever.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Happy belated birthday
Looks like a decent coin.
It was mostly a joke. That's always the risk at an auction. Some things fall through the cracks.
Speaking only for me, and based on my understanding that the intent of the CACG grading is that all coins in a CACG slab are equivalent to an NGC- or PCGS- graded coin with a green bean, I view a CACG-slabbed coin as substantially equivalent to a PCGS- or NGC-slabbed coin with a green bean on it (excluding CACG + grades and assuming the same grade and similar appearance for the candidate coins). So, for the same coin, I would not discriminate from among those three possibilities.
Note that I don't do registry sets, and I rarely buy coins that cost over US$1000 (and almost never buy coins that cost over US$2000). I buy coins to hold them, and enjoy them; my only concern for "value" is that, when I pay hundreds of dollars for a coin (or more), I want to feel confident that I am not grossly overpaying for that coin.
JMO
Agreed...I would also say that scarcity value and the newness of the CACG holder probably have folks bidding these coins higher. All else equal on the coin(s), even a plain old original OGH holder now has people paying a premium.
We saw something similar with sports cards being graded as there was super-long delays in 2020-21 and this resulted in high prices for temorarily "low pop" cards since others couldn't be graded yet.
Well you would think that and that's what I thought too. However, and granted this is only one example, but a Youtuber showed his CACG results of which one coin was previously rejected by CAC sticker but still crossed over at the same grade. So while this could have been a borderline "B" coin, I'm looking for more evidence that CAC was not stickering "B" coins that will straight-cross but didn't sticker as I believe this was the actual unadvertised practice.
TLDR; CACG coins may not be as high quality as CAC stickered coins.
http://ProofCollection.Net