Will this rare Half Cent have better luck on a 2nd submission?

opportunity

This 1804 C-2 (a very rare variety) is owned by an acquaintance of mine, and we have been debating whether a 2nd submission would make sense. Check out the Trueview and see for yourself. What I can say is that while it does have env. damage, it's mostly uniform and light, with nice chocolate even color overall, and the obverse pin scratch is faded such that it's invisible to the naked eye.

What does everyone think?

BillJones

The coin has dark, porus corrosion. If the grade includes "environmental damage," that is accurate.

BTW, this was the variety to drove me from half cent die variety collecting. I could never find one, and when I did, the dealer wanted $7 thousand for a ground salvage piece 30 years ago. I bought an 1804 quarter eagle in AU-50 instead and sold off the half cents.

Back when I was interested in these coins, most half cent collectors would have preferred it raw.

DelawareDoons

Too far gone imho.

Manifest_Destiny

No, don't think so.

opportunity

These are some pics I snapped of it when I saw it when it was still raw. Only thing I don't like about the pics is the pin scratches look way worse than they really are.

Slab pics they sent me post-grading

1madman

With a $10-$20k coin, I would definitely submit this again

jmlanzaf

Too porous.

If that coin ever straight grades, do using that TPGS

jerseyben

Either environmental damage or cleaned. 100% details no matter what. Sorry. Either way, awesome rare variety.

291fifth

Not a chance it will straight grade.

coinkat

no

Aotearoa

I think it has a shot. Early copper can be a bit of a crapshoot.

streeter

A real longshot to get a straight grade.

Manifest_Destiny

Send it to NGC. They straight graded this sponge.

opportunity

@Manifest_Destiny said:
Send it to NGC. They straight graded this sponge.

Wow, cool. Was that recent?

Manifest_Destiny

@opportunity said:

@Manifest_Destiny said:
Send it to NGC. They straight graded this sponge.

Wow, cool. Was that recent?

I don't know, it's just a coin I saw on ebay.

Coinobsessed

It’s not going to change from details graded.

Maywood

Does it really need to be in a straight grade holder and does it matter that it's as it is now?? The insert tells a buyer all they need to know about the coin in a straightforward manner and let's a buyer know everything they need to know.

If it was in a straight grade VG holder do you really think you'd get that kind of money for it??

PerryHall

That coin is obviously corroded no matter what any grading service says or puts on the label.

telephoto1

@PerryHall said:
That coin is obviously corroded no matter what any grading service says or puts on the label.

This.
Not to mention the scratches.

Walkerfan

@PerryHall said:
That coin is obviously corroded no matter what any grading service says or puts on the label.

+1

Not a coin I'd like to own, regardless of what ANY TPGS says.

Aotearoa

@Walkerfan said:

@PerryHall said:
That coin is obviously corroded no matter what any grading service says or puts on the label.

+1

Not a coin I'd like to own, regardless of what ANY TPGS says.

Said like a true non-EACer. No offense intended. Meaning only that in the world of old copper, one must either adjust their standards or have a boatload of money. I do agree, BTW, that the words on the label make no difference.

gumby1234

Where is the No option?

Walkerfan

@Aotearoa said:

@Walkerfan said:

@PerryHall said:
That coin is obviously corroded no matter what any grading service says or puts on the label.

+1

Not a coin I'd like to own, regardless of what ANY TPGS says.

Said like a true non-EACer. No offense intended. Meaning only that in the world of old copper, one must either adjust their standards or have a boatload of money. I do agree, BTW, that the words on the label make no difference.

No offense taken. I suppose, if it is Uber rare, then one must make compromises. I understand your point. 😊

opportunity

@Walkerfan said:

@Aotearoa said:

@Walkerfan said:

@PerryHall said:
That coin is obviously corroded no matter what any grading service says or puts on the label.

+1

Not a coin I'd like to own, regardless of what ANY TPGS says.

Said like a true non-EACer. No offense intended. Meaning only that in the world of old copper, one must either adjust their standards or have a boatload of money. I do agree, BTW, that the words on the label make no difference.

No offense taken. I suppose, if it is Uber rare, then one must make compromises. I understand your point. 😊

Here's a nice one for ya...only 120k

http://images.goldbergauctions.com/php/lot_auc.php?sale=77&site=1&lot=60

Walkerfan

@opportunity said:

@Walkerfan said:

@Aotearoa said:

@Walkerfan said:

@PerryHall said:
That coin is obviously corroded no matter what any grading service says or puts on the label.

+1

Not a coin I'd like to own, regardless of what ANY TPGS says.

Said like a true non-EACer. No offense intended. Meaning only that in the world of old copper, one must either adjust their standards or have a boatload of money. I do agree, BTW, that the words on the label make no difference.

No offense taken. I suppose, if it is Uber rare, then one must make compromises. I understand your point. 😊

Here's a nice one for ya...only 120k

http://images.goldbergauctions.com/php/lot_auc.php?sale=77&site=1&lot=60

That link won’t load for me. I’ll just take your word for it. 😉

NeophyteNumismatist

I do not see this coin getting a straight grade. It's a cool variety though!

alaura22

If that straight grades I'm throwing in the towel.
This is what I have been complaining about, too many coins like this being straight graded

PerryHall

Any grading service that would straight grade this heavily corroded coin would lose credibility in the eyes of any experienced collector who may view this coin. No grading service would risk damaging their reputation by giving this coin a straight grade so any attempt at a regrade would be a waste of money.

1Mike1

I think it's where it belongs right now. I don't believe the grade would improve to a straight grade.

Maywood

Here's the @opportunity link:

I believe the sale was in January of 2014. Lot 60:

1804 C-2 R6. PCGS graded VF-30 Brown. CAC Approved. Glossy chocolate brown. No roughness or verdigris, but there are quite a few small contact marks scattered over the obverse, especially on the left side. The best identifying mark is a disjointed nick from the lowest curl down to the rim below. EDS, Manley state 1.0, with the reverse rotated 30 degrees CW. Softly struck on the left edge of both sides, as usual on this variety, causing weakness at TED-ST, while everything else is properly impressed. The dies were out of proper axial alignment (the die faces were not perfectly parallel), and this condition was never corrected during the brief marriage that produced this variety. Our grade is F15+, net F15. Finest known of this very rare die variety. Plated in the Breen encyclopedia on page 230 to illustrate the variety (the large photos), and listed first in the condition census on page 231. The attribution and Missouri Cabinet provenance are shown on the PCGS label. PCGS population 1; the only example graded for the variety. (PCGS # 35143) .
Estimated Value $40,000-UP.
Ex William K. Raymond (cherrypicked on the bourse of the 1971 ANA Convention)-R. Tettenhorst-EPNNES-Missouri Cabinet (Mocab 04.2.2).

Realized $120,750

opportunity

@Maywood said:
Here's the @opportunity link:

I believe the sale was in January of 2014. Lot 60:

1804 C-2 R6. PCGS graded VF-30 Brown. CAC Approved. Glossy chocolate brown. No roughness or verdigris, but there are quite a few small contact marks scattered over the obverse, especially on the left side. The best identifying mark is a disjointed nick from the lowest curl down to the rim below. EDS, Manley state 1.0, with the reverse rotated 30 degrees CW. Softly struck on the left edge of both sides, as usual on this variety, causing weakness at TED-ST, while everything else is properly impressed. The dies were out of proper axial alignment (the die faces were not perfectly parallel), and this condition was never corrected during the brief marriage that produced this variety. Our grade is F15+, net F15. Finest known of this very rare die variety. Plated in the Breen encyclopedia on page 230 to illustrate the variety (the large photos), and listed first in the condition census on page 231. The attribution and Missouri Cabinet provenance are shown on the PCGS label. PCGS population 1; the only example graded for the variety. (PCGS # 35143) .
Estimated Value $40,000-UP.
Ex William K. Raymond (cherrypicked on the bourse of the 1971 ANA Convention)-R. Tettenhorst-EPNNES-Missouri Cabinet (Mocab 04.2.2).

Realized $120,750

Thanks for posting that. For whatever reason, the Goldberg site can be very slow to load, but it will load if you let it. Here's another one from the Whister Collection that went for $15,525... http://images.goldbergauctions.com/php/lot_auc.php?site=1&sale=65&lot=41

(Goldbergcoins.com)

Lot 41

1804 C-2 R6 AG3+. Slightly sharper, especially on the right sides where the strike was stronger, but the surfaces are covered with fine to moderate roughness. No verdigris and only a few contact marks, including a small rim bruise above the O in OF. Glossy dark chocolate brown and olive, and the gloss helps offset the minor roughness. The strike is uneven, as usual for this variety, with significant weakness on the left sides from non-parallel die faces. While most of the designs are clear, the uneven strike caused the 18 to be faint, the 0 to be weak but readable, and the 4 relatively clear. The opposing legends at ITED STATES are faint or missing as well while AMERICA and the fraction display the details of a VG coin. Therefore assigning an overall grade to this piece is relatively difficult and some veteran half cent collectors have called this piece net G5. MDS, Manley state 2.0, with a clear die crack through the top of RTY to the dentils at either end. Reportedly 17 examples of this variety are known with only 3 graded better than Good. Weight 77.5 grains.
Estimated Value $8,000-UP.
Ex "An old time Toronto estate"-Terry Lo (Canadian dealer)-eBay as unattributed 12/17/2000-Ed Fuhrman 3/31/2006.

Realized $15,525

I'm unsure which one I'd rather actually own...the one I posted is weaker in the date, apparently, but the Goldberg coin seems rougher and is more dingy.

MapsOnFire

I discovered several of these in the '60s and '70s.

ShaunBC5

To anyone looking for this variety and intending to spend that kind of money on it, does the holder matter beyond authentication?
I would think (because I don’t know) that on a coin like this and to the people that chase it, the holder is really just a protective covering. They’re judging the coin on its own merits regardless of “details” or straight grading.

Aotearoa

@ShaunBC5 said:
To anyone looking for this variety and intending to spend that kind of money on it, does the holder matter beyond authentication?
I would think (because I don’t know) that on a coin like this and to the people that chase it, the holder is really just a protective covering. They’re judging the coin on its own merits regardless of “details” or straight grading.

Yep. In my pursuit of the Draped Bust LC Sheldon series I care much more about eye appeal and whether the die variety is readily identifiable than I do about straight vs details. In fact, a details grade can be a bonus because it often knocks the price back.

This coin (which I have posted here before) is a good example. Many wouldn’t touch it but I think it’s beautiful AND I got it for a song.

lkenefic

Tough die variety for sure... and one of the reasons I don't collect these by die variety! For the coin in the OP, no way she straight-graded, but I've been wrong before. If you've looked at enough early copper you'll realize that just because the holder says straight-grade doesn't mean there aren't issues with the piece... just look at slabbed 1794s, and Classic Head LC's. For this piece, I think I'd more like to see the attribution on the holder than a straight grade... but that's just me.