Why there are 5 1913 Liberty Head 5 c Coins & the 1933 St. Gauden Double Eagle that were not Stolen.
Rainbowtonedcoins
Posts: 4 ✭
When the Philadelphia Mint took in coins in payment for something and the coin was out of pattern they would toss it in with the planchets to be restruck. For example, if they were striking a Wheat 1 cent, and they got an Indian head 1 cent coin. Now in early January, 1913 at the Philadelphia Mint, a coin dealer could pay with five Shield 5 cent coins, and get them restruck into the five 1913 Liberty Head 5 cent coins. This would have to happen before the Buffalo 5 cent dies were delivered to the mint. The Shield 5 cent coins were .03 hundreds of an inch smaller in diameter than the Liberty Head 5 cent coins. The coin graders thought that the 1913 Liberty Head 5 cent coin dies were not locked down all the way when the coins were struck, but the liquid metal sloshing over under pressure from one side to the other in the collar would account for the flow lines effect when the coins were struck. Now in 1933 at the Philadelphia Mint just after the 1933 St. Gauden Double Eagle dies were delivered to the mint, a coin order with Coronet Double Eagles, and have them restruck into 1933 St. Gauden $20 Double Eagles. This is the most likely way that the coin dealer got these 1933 St. Gauden $20 Double Eagles. The security at the mint was tight when they were making the 90% gold and 10% copper planchets, and then striking coins that they knew were going to be melted down except the one 1933 St. Gauden Double Eagle in the Smithsonian Numismatic Collection which is the only one struck from a planchet that still exists to this day. I want to give the Glory for the wisdom about these coins to God. From the Monterey County Jail in Salinas, California, B-Pod.
Sincerely,
David Homes
P.S. God bless you all.
Comments
Are you running this through an AI to write? There are at least a dozen known and revealed 1933 double eagles. Most likely there are several more out there.
The mint has had enough legitimate shenanigans over the decades with favors and trades and things that their position on the 1933 is singularly out of line. IMO. Won’t change for various reasons but it would be great if more were known and legally traded. Same for the 64d peace.
The return of the AI thread starter! Collet the series-
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1096792/why-there-aren-t-more-color-toned-morgan-dollars
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
These posts are not AI generated. They are being written by my brother David in jail and mailed to me and I am typing them out for him, editing them, and posting them at the PCGS Coin Boards for him. My brother David loves coins and reading about them. He had a membership to PCGS Coin magazine for years and used to read them cover to cover. He developed some ideas about coins over the years and he has plenty of time to write them out right now while he is in jail. He doesn't have access to the internet so he may get some details incorrect. This is a good and positive way for him to share his ideas with the numismatic community and a good way for him to spend his time in there. All I know about coins is from listening to my brother talk about it over the years. David is a good person who suffers from Schizophrenia. David has made some mistakes with the law as a result of his mental illness. I read all your comments to my brother when we talked on the phone and he really appreciated them. It makes him feel like he is still a part of something and contributing to society in some small way. As for me, I have helped take care of my brother David for the last 19 years since he had to stop working due to his mental illness. I have been a teacher for over 20 years and I love what I do for a living. I will try to answer comments on my brother's behalf. Thanks for your time.
Take care everyone!
If only his cell had "liquid metal" bars, he could be home for Christmas.
There is NO RECORD of any 1913 Liberty nickels being struck. Creating a theory as to how they could be struck is unnecessary. It was simple "shenanigans".
There are too many inaccuracies and falsehoods in your original post to even know where to begin.
I fully acknowledge that you could be correct about my brother's theory being incorrect. Quite honestly, I am not entirely sure what he is talking about. I will read your comments to him to the next time I speak with him. Could you expand on "shenanigans". What type of "shenanigans" do you think might have happened? I am sure David would love a counter theory to his idea. Take care.
My understanding is a mint employee struck the 5 nickels using dies that were already in place. There's a theory
that it was done after hours. The coins could not have been considered a mint issue since they were never
legally struck.
The forum is a magnet for numismatists who suffer personality disorders. The members are kind until the writer doubles down on nonsense and characterizes the folk who answer with facts and honesty.
This thread does not go well; you are a fated messenger.
If you wish to see how these confused theories proceed in a thread send me a PM and I will show you where to read.
The best way that you can help your brother is learn here with us and illuminate him.
Sorry, but the Mint simply didn't work like that.
- The Mint can't just strike coins whenever it fells like it; they need a request from Treasury to strike coins of a certain type. A Mint - or somebody working inside a Mint - that strikes coins without official government request and permission to do so, is no better than a counterfeiter.
- An obsolete coin design is not officially withdrawn; if the coin is not damaged or otherwise unfit for reissue, it would simply stay in the till and be given out as change for the next person. So if someone in 1913 paid a bill to the Mint with an Indian penny or a Liberty nickel, they would have done the same as any other business, and used those coins as money.
- When coins that are actually worn, damaged or otherwise unfit for reissue are returned to the Mint for destruction, they don't simply treat them as planchets and overstrike them. They are, after all, no longer the correct weight. Such damaged coins are tossed into the melting pot, along with all the scrap metal leftover from blank production, for production of the next batch of raw metal.
- If the Mint had implemented such a scheme, where Mint visitors could exchange their old coins in their pocket for freshly minted coins, there would be records of such strikings. The Mint, being a government agency with responsibility for handling precious metals, keeps records of everything it does. The Mint has records of producing 1913 Liberty nickel dies, but no records of ever officially using them. Yet, 1913 Liberty nickels exist; they therefore must have been made by an unofficial, off-the-books process.
- We know where all five of the 1913 Liberty nickels came from: Samuel Brown, who was a mint employee in 1913. He had all five of them with him when he went to the 1920 ANA Convention to show them off. He claimed to have bought them after placing an advertisement offering to pay $500 each for them, but his story doesn't add up: the probability that all five of these coins would end up in the hands of five anonymous people who knew their significance and value, yet did not want to keep the coins themselves, is astonishingly low. Occam's Razor says the most likely explanation was that he (somehow) made them himself while working at the Mint.
1913 Liberty Head nickels are "legal", only because the Mint doesn't know for sure that they are legitimate Mint-produced coins - since there are no records. You cannot have something "stolen" from you if it doesn't officially exist and you have no proof it was ever officially "yours". The 1933 double eagles, on the other hand, did officially exist - 445,000 of them. They were produced on order of Treasury, before the order came down from the President that gold coins would no longer be issued. They were all still in the vaults at the Mint, awaiting delivery - and were all supposed to have been destroyed, along with the rest of the redeemed and confiscated gold coins - yet somehow, 12 of them weren't. The Mint was not authorized to sell any of them, and has no records of anybody selling them - therefore, they must have been stolen.
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD.
Well these posts are definitely interesting reads on a different plane of perspectives...........
"When they can't find anything wrong with you, they create it!"
If your story is true I am sorry about your brother people have hard lives and mental illness is serious enough if treated even more so without meds. I honestly hope this will help him still enjoy something and not fall apart mentally while in prison. I do not know his crime (hopefully nothing to messed up) but who am I to judge someone without having walked in their shoes.
Tell him some of us hope he gets the help he needs and can one day enjoy his passion for coins. Maybe you should send him some coin books and journals. I am sure he would appreciate it vs all the dark that exists within those walls.
The fact you try helping him and are there for him shows you are a true brother!!!
NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers
There are books written on those coins same as the 1804 dollar and many others. You should buy them for him and send them to him or deliver them in person. I am sure that would make his year much better. Better be reading and learning than getting involved in bad business.
NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers
There is no record of Liberty nickels being struck or authorized to be struck. Dies were prepared and then destroyed. Someone struck the coins without authorization. This is fairly well understood.
At one time, the Mint insisted they weren't a Mint product. There were theories that they were struck elsewhere. But in recent times, the belief is they were an unauthorized striking by a Mint employee. Hence, "shenanigans".
You should buy him some coin books and print coin journals and send it to him. I am sure he will be happy to be busy with something positive.
NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers
Not sure how to respond to those 2 statements as I haven't seen them in coin or other message boards EVER.
God has one hell of a coin collection.
Certainly wish the best for your brother, you, and the family.
May I suggest he read up on Liberty Nickels (not an expert, others here can recommend).....but on Saint-Gaudens DEs, you can kill 2 birds with 1 stone by buying David Bowers dated Double Eagle book (2004) which covers both Liberty Head and Saint-Gaudens.
Better yet if he wants something that will last him a while to read (600+ pages) and REALLY make him well-educated on Saints.......get The Bible....Roger Burdette's Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle book (could be tough now finding a copy so hurry). It's one of the best researched and written books on coins, IMO. Even if you aren't into Saints, it's great reading and there are lots of sections that cover the Gold Standard, Banking, Finance, the Inter-war period, etc. You learn ALOT about how gold was used from this book, not just about each year's Saints.
I'm not an expert on Liberty Nickels but my understanding is that the 5 (?) coins were obviously either a mistake or someone deliberately switched out the die instead of using the newer Buffalo design.
On the 1933's I'm more well-versed: 445,543 were stuck.....445,500 were stored and never released....43 1933 coins were used to replace 43 defective 1932 Saints to balance the books. Whether the 25 (?) coins that are believed to have gotten out were from the 1932 replacement or if they were from a Philadelphia Mint employee who swapped them out, nobody can say for sure. The Langbord Ten are at Fort Knox and 1 or 2 others were "voluntarily" turned in after the court case plus the 8 or 9 that were seized/destroyed in the 1940's and 1950's. Could still be some out there if you start with 25 that were available.
Both sides have flaws in their arguments but the big one to me is the Mint and government saying the coins were "stolen" when in fact they were clearly swapped out for other Double Eagles....the Mint recorded NO LOSS of gold, so there could not be stolen coins. And their interest in the coins commenced when it was clear their FMV exceeded the face value of the coins by a factor of 100 or more. Had they been worth $25-$35 like the MCMVIII High Reliefs years after release, I doubt the Secret Service or Mint would have cared.
There are books out on the 1933 coin that was legal that discusses the rest of the coins, but I think the most honest accounting is contained in RWB's Saints book.
Christmas is coming maybe that could be something to think about buying him. Christmas in prison can be a very difficult time for many there. Are you allowed to send him books were he is located? Does he have permission to keep such books in his cell?
NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers
A red book price guide is also a great idea as a gift will learn a lot from it.
NFL: Buffalo Bills & Green Bay Packers
Not bad...can read a little about alot of coins....the price guide for lots of coins is also nice to peruse, but it WILL be out-of-date and the prices VERY stale. Could be very accurate to within 5-10%, could be off by 50% or more from the current market.
If he wants to read about lots of different coins, yes, this is the way to go. If he wants to focus on specific coins -- Nickels or Double Eagles -- then look for a more specific book.
There are books that are mostly price data...books that are largely pictures....etc. Get the one you think he wants.
Pillar, here's a bunch of my favorite books/auction catalogs (also great reading) which show some of the items I mentioned. You can see a 2014 Red Book.....the Burdette book on Saint-Gaudens DEs....and the Bowers book on DEs: