I am blown away by this coin-- congratulations, Dan!! This coin falls into the category of "coin of a lifetime", and we can sometimes spend a lifetime looking for those coins and never find it. I am glad you did not let the absence of a sticker close the opportunity for you--> the coin 'speaks' for itself and is awesome. I would be very excited to have that coin for sure...
Always remember the conditions under which these coins were made in the late 1700s to early 1800s-- planchet and surface features are a part of that history. With that in mind, I think you found the right balance.
I think cac did you a HUGE favor not stickering that coin. I love it.
Those lint marks are common as dirt on the Latin American gold that I collect. They don’t bother me at all. And the color of that coin is absolutely beautiful.
Very nice original eagle and congratulations on getting a coin you like and have searched for so many years. That one had to have been cared for, for around maybe 10 generations of owners. Just imagine who may have first held it, then sold it, bought it, etc., over the past 228 years.
Judging from the photos, it seems to have a very nice reverse with the breast feather detail,
and the obverse has some distracting marks, but not much wear.
When comparing to the AUs on CoinFacts https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1795-10-13-leaves/images/8551
I'd say it is better than the AU-58+, but not as nice as the two AU-58s.
Also better than the AU-55.
So maybe it is not a high end AU-58 in that small group, but it's still a great coin.
I suspect it is the 58 grade. While it may very well be worth 58 money with all the positives mentioned and deserve the holder. The line on the Obv and amount of impacted mint surfaces/luster classically speak to a mid AU grade generically speaking that is. The gravity of that coin will make people look twice to those points, one could see CAC zeroing in.
@yosclimber said:
A dream coin for most of us, very nice.
Judging from the photos, it seems to have a very nice reverse with the breast feather detail,
and the obverse has some distracting marks, but not much wear.
When comparing to the AUs on CoinFacts https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1795-10-13-leaves/images/8551
I'd say it is better than the AU-58+, but not as nice as the two AU-58s.
Also better than the AU-55.
So maybe it is not a high end AU-58 in that small group, but it's still a great coin.
Great analysis, my general opinion when i bought the coin was that the obverse marks bump it down to a technical 58 "C", but Im fairly confident it would sticker as a 55 if i wanted to try to downgrade it or send it to CACG. Those two 58s in coinfacts havent appeared in any recent auctions, one of them is CAC approved and one isnt. Its difficult for me to tell how much i like those coins because the way they shot them, where they blast them with light like they would shoot a proof. Hearing you say you think it looks better than the 58+ is comforting though, because that coin sold fairly recently for way more than what I paid. That 58+ was one of two CAC 58s to ever sell in a public auction and here is the other one:
Not that there is anything wrong with that coin, but even though it might meet the technical standars for a sticker, I much prefer the overall appearance of my coin. Granted my coin is not perfect, but as i explained i am a sucker for color, originality, and eye appeal. Ancient contact marks dont bother me nearly as much as grainy or washed out surfaces, unnatural color, or heavy adjustment marks. If a coin that has the overall appearance of mine but without the contact marks ever shows up, budget permitting i might make a run for it but it will likely cost 2x what i paid for this one.
@bestday said:
The fact this pricey coin is not stickered .. is it safe to say attempts were made in the past for the CAC sticker?
Given the value of the coin and who i bought it from, theres no doubt in my mind that it had to have made the trip once. The story behind this coin is that it walked into a shop raw a few months ago, and this is the first time its ever been graded. Thats not to say i wont try again at some point in the future.
@Crypto said:
I suspect it is the 58 grade. While it may very well be worth 58 money with all the positives mentioned and deserve the holder. The line on the Obv and amount of impacted mint surfaces/luster classically speak to a mid AU grade generically speaking that is. The gravity of that coin will make people look twice to those points, one could see CAC zeroing in.
That said it is a treasure, congratulations.
Its an interesting situation for sure. I sort have figured the coin would look sort of silly in a 55 holder, because it really does have little to no actual wear on the high points and a ton of luster in the protected areas and under the "crust". With that said, I agree that aforementioned issues could knock it down from "solid 58" status.
This might be one of those "pickle" coins that everyones wondering how CACG is going to handle. Presumably a 58 "C" thats too nice to go deets for any reason, so maybe the CACG grade would be 55+? In any event, I would be fine with that since the 55cac cpg is higher than the 58 non cac cpg.
@Crypto said:
I suspect it is the 58 grade. While it may very well be worth 58 money with all the positives mentioned and deserve the holder. The line on the Obv and amount of impacted mint surfaces/luster classically speak to a mid AU grade generically speaking that is. The gravity of that coin will make people look twice to those points, one could see CAC zeroing in.
That said it is a treasure, congratulations.
Its an interesting situation for sure. I sort have figured the coin would look sort of silly in a 55 holder, because it really does have little to no actual wear on the high points and a ton of luster in the protected areas and under the "crust". With that said, I agree that aforementioned issues could knock it down from "solid 58" status.
This might be one of those "pickle" coins that everyones wondering how CACG is going to handle. Presumably a 58 "C" thats too nice to go deets for any reason, so maybe the CACG grade would be 55+? In any event, I would be fine with that since the 55cac cpg is higher than the 58 non cac cpg.
I have always viewed it that Wear or highpoint loss doesn’t really start until 50-53 depending on a few total coin criteria. Higher end AUs (at least at PCGS and CaC) are measured in surface preservation. If you think of unimpaired mint surfaces on not only the fields but the devices as a percentage to 100% au58s should have at least 50% original mint surfaces. Not saying impacted surfaces can’t be lustrous them selves but not the same. Cheek frost is obvious ect. If the luster looks different in the protected areas and inside the devices that is because the others are impacted (rub). AU55 = 25%-50% original surfaces. AU53 = 10%-33% depending on high point loss now factoring in. AU50 is almost always an UGLY or dead 53. EF45 (last 1%-10%) EF40 and lower maybe a trace.
Note certain other factors can weigh the accumulated grade and tip it up or down form the baselines. AU61 get murky with their 85%+ surfaces.
Also interesting is this is one of the areas that NGC and PCGS’s standard vary the most NGC is almost entirely highpoint preservation for EF40-AU55 not putting nearly as much if any weight in luster. Many a NGC AU comes back XF at PCGS
This is some piece @DeplorableDan ! I'm wondering if this single coin is worth more than my house and all of its contents with me in it 😆
A big congrats to you. Quite an attractive piece of history you've acquired.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Wonderful coin! You could see that for yourself. You did not need a sticker to hold your hand!
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
It's worth a sub to CACG if that's important to you. There are reports of CAC-denied coins crossing straight at CACG, lending credence to my theory that JA wasn't stickering "B" coins even though many thought he was.
Coin is the coin is the coin. It would be a cherry on top if CAC blessed it but as you note that would have jacked the price to a point maybe you couldn't have swung it. It's very nice indeed and I would guess compares very well with its peers. Silly though to look down upon anyone wanting CAC to "hold their hand" on a 6-figure purchase. I'm not in any danger of making a purchase like that, unless we're including past the decimal point, but I'd at least be aware of how CAC viewed a potential one.
All the CAC sticker means that JA would buy it at the AU-58 sight-unseen. It does not mean that it is overgraded but that he would need to see it before buying it. While at least 95% of the gold coins is a must for having CAC stickering, there are always exceptions in which i prefer to keep certain coins (not more than a handful) as is without the sticker.
When I listened to JA on getting rid of a wonderful 1906 $5 AU-58 gold coin which had the look of a MS-63 that had a small pockmark/indentation in the field, JA felt such indentation was too distracting to overwhelm the otherwise positive attributes of the coin. After getting rid of such coin which sold in 90 seconds in Baltimore, I regretted not listening to my own gut opinion.
On your coin, Lookingbat the obverse only, I think JA was concerned about the reeding marks at 2/3pm of the obverse field plus the smaller 3rd one at 4 pm plus the squiggly long light scratch at 10/11 am of the obverse as well plus possible minor and small cleaning area also at 10/11 am especially by one of the stars which took this otherwise attractive coin out of the solid for the grade/sight unseen category that JA prefers.
As far as the reverse, I see it as closer to an AU-55 as I see more wear in the high points. But still very attractive.
I personally rate this coin obverse as an AU-58.2 and reverse as an AU-55.7 which means no sticker as well. It needs to attain 58.4 overall to earn a sticker. The coin certainly has eye appeal but on a technical and old time grading scale it does not make it.
The coin is very photogenic and very attractive.
If I am wrong, please correct me. We can only learn.
@oreville said:
When I listened to JA on getting rid of a wonderful 1906 $5 AU-58 gold coin which had the look of a MS-63 that had a small pockmark/indentation in the field, JA felt such indentation was too distracting to overwhelm the otherwise positive attributes of the coin. After getting rid of such coin which sold in 90 seconds in Baltimore, I regretted not listening to my own gut opinion.
So a grading company thought it was a 58, JA wouldn’t sticker it as a 58 because of surface problems, and you regret selling it because in your mind it’s a 63? My gut is telling me you were lucky to move the coin.
@oreville said:
All the CAC sticker means that JA would buy it at the AU-58 sight-unseen. It does not mean that it is overgraded but that he would need to see it before buying it. While at least 95% of the gold coins is a must for having CAC stickering, there are always exceptions in which i prefer to keep certain coins (not more than a handful) as is without the sticker.
When I listened to JA on getting rid of a wonderful 1906 $5 AU-58 gold coin which had the look of a MS-63 that had a small pockmark/indentation in the field, JA felt such indentation was too distracting to overwhelm the otherwise positive attributes of the coin. After getting rid of such coin which sold in 90 seconds in Baltimore, I regretted not listening to my own gut opinion.
On your coin, Lookingbat the obverse only, I think JA was concerned about the reeding marks at 2/3pm of the obverse field plus the smaller 3rd one at 4 pm plus the squiggly long light scratch at 10/11 am of the obverse as well plus possible minor and small cleaning area also at 10/11 am especially by one of the stars which took this otherwise attractive coin out of the solid for the grade/sight unseen category that JA prefers.
As far as the reverse, I see it as closer to an AU-55 as I see more wear in the high points. But still very attractive.
I personally rate this coin obverse as an AU-58.2 and reverse as an AU-55.7 which means no sticker as well. It needs to attain 58.4 overall to earn a sticker. The coin certainly has eye appeal but on a technical and old time grading scale it does not make it.
The coin is very photogenic and very attractive.
If I am wrong, please correct me. We can only learn.
I would say that’s a pretty sound analysis. In my opinion, the coin should sticker as a 55 and I agree that it just might not be an A/B as a 58. I don’t really see evidence of “cleaning” when I look at it, but there are a good bit of handling marks and hairlines in the coin which seems to be fairly typical for many examples of this date, whether it is a light cleaning or a light wipe or whatever. The long squiggly scratch is actually a lint mark btw.
I would seek advice from JA as to whether it makes sense to get the coin regraded by PCGS as an AU-55 and obtain a green sticker or even better yet go for an AU-53+ and obtain a gold sticker! LOL.
Gregg Bingham and some others would kill me for even suggesting that! LOL.
@oreville said:
I would seek advice from JA as to whether it makes sense to get the coin regraded by PCGS as an AU-55 and obtain a green sticker or even better yet go for an AU-53+ and obtain a gold sticker! LOL.
Gregg Bingham and some others would kill me for even suggesting that! LOL.
For now, at least, I’d certainly leave the coin in its current holder. You can (almost) always reassess later.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Beautiful coin buddy. Coins don't come perfect, even modern stuff has mint made issues, let alone a large gold coin made on a screw press in 1795. To find one that checks off the boxes, is close to impossible. Well done.
Looks like a very wholesome example of a 1795 eagle. I suspect the reed marks on the obverse saved you a lot of money because that would be my first guess as to what prevented a sticker. Enjoy your coin!
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
Comments
I am blown away by this coin-- congratulations, Dan!! This coin falls into the category of "coin of a lifetime", and we can sometimes spend a lifetime looking for those coins and never find it. I am glad you did not let the absence of a sticker close the opportunity for you--> the coin 'speaks' for itself and is awesome. I would be very excited to have that coin for sure...
Always remember the conditions under which these coins were made in the late 1700s to early 1800s-- planchet and surface features are a part of that history. With that in mind, I think you found the right balance.
I think cac did you a HUGE favor not stickering that coin. I love it.
Those lint marks are common as dirt on the Latin American gold that I collect. They don’t bother me at all. And the color of that coin is absolutely beautiful.
I would love to have the honor to see that wonderful specimen in person some day. What a rarity and beautiful coin to add to your collection!
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
One hell of a coin!
Congratulations!
"Bongo hurtles along the rain soaked highway of life on underinflated bald retread tires."
~Wayne
What an incredible coin, really the capstone of any US collection. Well done!
Fantastic gem AU coin! Feathers galore!
Had it been on my wantlist, no way could I have passed on an early $10 with such a boldly struck eagle.
Congratulations!
30+ years coin shop experience (ret.) Coins, bullion, currency, scrap & interesting folks. Loved every minute!
Amazing Photos does justice to coin to a 228 year old coin
Beautiful coin, congrats!!
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I have the younger sister, mine doesn’t have a sticker either, and it doesn’t bother me one bit!
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Thats an incredibly nice coin. Way out of my price range.
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Beautiful coin! Looks MS to me!
Very nice original eagle and congratulations on getting a coin you like and have searched for so many years. That one had to have been cared for, for around maybe 10 generations of owners. Just imagine who may have first held it, then sold it, bought it, etc., over the past 228 years.
My US Mint Commemorative Medal Set
You were born in 1995?! It's a great coin and it must be great to be young!
Congratulations
I can't say anything that's not already been said. Definitely a dream coin for sure. Congrats and welcome to the deep end of the pool.
Congrats! Since that is a large purchase I would assume you already know what you are doing so I'd guess a sticker isn't needed. Good job!
jom
Dan,
That is one amazing piece of gold!!!
Congrats on your pickup.
Donato
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great coin
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The fact this pricey coin is not stickered .. is it safe to say attempts were made in the past for the CAC sticker?
The sticker is unnecessary when the coin is necessary to own.
A dream coin for most of us, very nice.
Judging from the photos, it seems to have a very nice reverse with the breast feather detail,
and the obverse has some distracting marks, but not much wear.
When comparing to the AUs on CoinFacts
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1795-10-13-leaves/images/8551
I'd say it is better than the AU-58+, but not as nice as the two AU-58s.
Also better than the AU-55.
So maybe it is not a high end AU-58 in that small group, but it's still a great coin.
I am in awe.
An extremely nice pick up.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
fantastic pickup !!! congratulations !!!
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Awesome coin! If I were doing a box of 20, the 1795 Eagle would definitely be in it.
That's one hum-dinger!
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I suspect it is the 58 grade. While it may very well be worth 58 money with all the positives mentioned and deserve the holder. The line on the Obv and amount of impacted mint surfaces/luster classically speak to a mid AU grade generically speaking that is. The gravity of that coin will make people look twice to those points, one could see CAC zeroing in.
That said it is a treasure, congratulations.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Great analysis, my general opinion when i bought the coin was that the obverse marks bump it down to a technical 58 "C", but Im fairly confident it would sticker as a 55 if i wanted to try to downgrade it or send it to CACG. Those two 58s in coinfacts havent appeared in any recent auctions, one of them is CAC approved and one isnt. Its difficult for me to tell how much i like those coins because the way they shot them, where they blast them with light like they would shoot a proof. Hearing you say you think it looks better than the 58+ is comforting though, because that coin sold fairly recently for way more than what I paid. That 58+ was one of two CAC 58s to ever sell in a public auction and here is the other one:
https://www.davidlawrence.com/product/2121745/
Not that there is anything wrong with that coin, but even though it might meet the technical standars for a sticker, I much prefer the overall appearance of my coin. Granted my coin is not perfect, but as i explained i am a sucker for color, originality, and eye appeal. Ancient contact marks dont bother me nearly as much as grainy or washed out surfaces, unnatural color, or heavy adjustment marks. If a coin that has the overall appearance of mine but without the contact marks ever shows up, budget permitting i might make a run for it but it will likely cost 2x what i paid for this one.
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Given the value of the coin and who i bought it from, theres no doubt in my mind that it had to have made the trip once. The story behind this coin is that it walked into a shop raw a few months ago, and this is the first time its ever been graded. Thats not to say i wont try again at some point in the future.
Founder- Peak Rarities
Website
Instagram
Facebook
Its an interesting situation for sure. I sort have figured the coin would look sort of silly in a 55 holder, because it really does have little to no actual wear on the high points and a ton of luster in the protected areas and under the "crust". With that said, I agree that aforementioned issues could knock it down from "solid 58" status.
This might be one of those "pickle" coins that everyones wondering how CACG is going to handle. Presumably a 58 "C" thats too nice to go deets for any reason, so maybe the CACG grade would be 55+? In any event, I would be fine with that since the 55cac cpg is higher than the 58 non cac cpg.
Founder- Peak Rarities
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I am GREEN with envy.
I have always viewed it that Wear or highpoint loss doesn’t really start until 50-53 depending on a few total coin criteria. Higher end AUs (at least at PCGS and CaC) are measured in surface preservation. If you think of unimpaired mint surfaces on not only the fields but the devices as a percentage to 100% au58s should have at least 50% original mint surfaces. Not saying impacted surfaces can’t be lustrous them selves but not the same. Cheek frost is obvious ect. If the luster looks different in the protected areas and inside the devices that is because the others are impacted (rub). AU55 = 25%-50% original surfaces. AU53 = 10%-33% depending on high point loss now factoring in. AU50 is almost always an UGLY or dead 53. EF45 (last 1%-10%) EF40 and lower maybe a trace.
Note certain other factors can weigh the accumulated grade and tip it up or down form the baselines. AU61 get murky with their 85%+ surfaces.
Also interesting is this is one of the areas that NGC and PCGS’s standard vary the most NGC is almost entirely highpoint preservation for EF40-AU55 not putting nearly as much if any weight in luster. Many a NGC AU comes back XF at PCGS
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
It should also be noted JA is notorious for not liking lines (or any defect) in focal areas
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
I think it is absolutely lovely! Congratulations, and thanks for sharing.
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
Just super!
Looks like another lint mark on reverse?
This is some piece @DeplorableDan ! I'm wondering if this single coin is worth more than my house and all of its contents with me in it 😆
A big congrats to you. Quite an attractive piece of history you've acquired.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Wonderful coin! You could see that for yourself. You did not need a sticker to hold your hand!
It's worth a sub to CACG if that's important to you. There are reports of CAC-denied coins crossing straight at CACG, lending credence to my theory that JA wasn't stickering "B" coins even though many thought he was.
http://ProofCollection.Net
The color "makes" the coin.
Coin is the coin is the coin. It would be a cherry on top if CAC blessed it but as you note that would have jacked the price to a point maybe you couldn't have swung it. It's very nice indeed and I would guess compares very well with its peers. Silly though to look down upon anyone wanting CAC to "hold their hand" on a 6-figure purchase. I'm not in any danger of making a purchase like that, unless we're including past the decimal point, but I'd at least be aware of how CAC viewed a potential one.
Ok, I’m gonna say it: YOU SUCK !!!
👍🏻
Having fun while switching things up and focusing on a next level PCGS slabbed 1950+ type set, while still looking for great examples for the 7070.
Wow, amazing coin (and I like the grade!). This forum should have a "love" reaction; this coin deserves it.
I have a pretty nice collection, and that one coin is more valuable than my entire collection; enjoy it a great deal!
Mark
All the CAC sticker means that JA would buy it at the AU-58 sight-unseen. It does not mean that it is overgraded but that he would need to see it before buying it. While at least 95% of the gold coins is a must for having CAC stickering, there are always exceptions in which i prefer to keep certain coins (not more than a handful) as is without the sticker.
When I listened to JA on getting rid of a wonderful 1906 $5 AU-58 gold coin which had the look of a MS-63 that had a small pockmark/indentation in the field, JA felt such indentation was too distracting to overwhelm the otherwise positive attributes of the coin. After getting rid of such coin which sold in 90 seconds in Baltimore, I regretted not listening to my own gut opinion.
On your coin, Lookingbat the obverse only, I think JA was concerned about the reeding marks at 2/3pm of the obverse field plus the smaller 3rd one at 4 pm plus the squiggly long light scratch at 10/11 am of the obverse as well plus possible minor and small cleaning area also at 10/11 am especially by one of the stars which took this otherwise attractive coin out of the solid for the grade/sight unseen category that JA prefers.
As far as the reverse, I see it as closer to an AU-55 as I see more wear in the high points. But still very attractive.
I personally rate this coin obverse as an AU-58.2 and reverse as an AU-55.7 which means no sticker as well. It needs to attain 58.4 overall to earn a sticker. The coin certainly has eye appeal but on a technical and old time grading scale it does not make it.
The coin is very photogenic and very attractive.
If I am wrong, please correct me. We can only learn.
So a grading company thought it was a 58, JA wouldn’t sticker it as a 58 because of surface problems, and you regret selling it because in your mind it’s a 63? My gut is telling me you were lucky to move the coin.
There are great coins that for whatever reason don't get stickered. Sometimes it isn't even the coin's fault. It doesn't mean they aren't GREAT COINS.
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
I would say that’s a pretty sound analysis. In my opinion, the coin should sticker as a 55 and I agree that it just might not be an A/B as a 58. I don’t really see evidence of “cleaning” when I look at it, but there are a good bit of handling marks and hairlines in the coin which seems to be fairly typical for many examples of this date, whether it is a light cleaning or a light wipe or whatever. The long squiggly scratch is actually a lint mark btw.
Founder- Peak Rarities
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Instagram
Facebook
I would seek advice from JA as to whether it makes sense to get the coin regraded by PCGS as an AU-55 and obtain a green sticker or even better yet go for an AU-53+ and obtain a gold sticker! LOL.
Gregg Bingham and some others would kill me for even suggesting that! LOL.
For now, at least, I’d certainly leave the coin in its current holder. You can (almost) always reassess later.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Beautiful coin buddy. Coins don't come perfect, even modern stuff has mint made issues, let alone a large gold coin made on a screw press in 1795. To find one that checks off the boxes, is close to impossible. Well done.
Looks like a very wholesome example of a 1795 eagle. I suspect the reed marks on the obverse saved you a lot of money because that would be my first guess as to what prevented a sticker. Enjoy your coin!
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.