CDN acquires Whitman
BustDMs
Posts: 1,636 ✭✭✭✭✭
Is this a good thing for the hobby Having one voice for the wholesale and retail pricing of coins?
NOT offering an opinion, just asking opinions.
Q: When does a collector become a numismatist?
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
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Comments
Why not offering an opinion? I think many of us would appreciate yours.
Owning the manufacturing and distribution of the supply business, and the sponsorship venues and opportunities might be a good business model for them. Congrats to John and Team CDN for the evolution of their business. I wish then continued success.
Regarding pricing models, at first blush, it might not be the best thing as I think more data is better ... however, did Whitman really have a dynamic pricing model that was being used somewhere? This is a serious question, because I wasn't (am not) using it, if it exists.
EDIT: Hit post instead of save ... got a work call in there.
I think the other plus is that both Whitman and CDN are essentially publishing companies, so the synergy makes a lot of sense there.
Finally, will the Red Book and Blue Book pricing gravitate more towards the CDN numbers, or will they remain separate pricing models? This will be interesting to see. I hope they more closely reflect retail (Red) and dealer (Blue) pricing, as this could prove useful to collectors who are not plugged in to the dynamic system CDN ahs now.
The books will still be somewhat static, but if they align more with real time pricing at the time of publication copy (which maybe can be posted in the Editor's Notes) I think it will help annual Red and Blue Book sales.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
Aside from the Red Book (and Blue Book, if still published) did Whitman publish any price guides? I really don't know. If not, then I see no issues with CDN acquiring Whitman and, even if so, I don't know that there is anything wrong with the acquisition.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
A company that publishes a coin pricing guide acquires a company that publishes coin (including coin pricing) books. Sounds pretty good to me. Of course ask me again when we see what the 2026 Red Book winds up looking like 😉
I have to imagine that the leading company in coin pricing acquiring a publishing company that focuses on coins and coin pricing is likely a great move for CDN and a win for both novice and seasoned collectors. Plus with CDN's focus on wholesale and Whitman's focus on retail now under one roof, it also makes for (hopefully) stronger alignment between the two pricing worlds. Congrats and wishing you and the team best of luck on the acquisition @JohnF!
Red book is being retitled.
Now greybook?
Hopefully, CDN will find another location for the Baltimore Show. A location that is safer and taxes are more favorable toward numismatists. I live 30 miles away and stopped attending several years ago due to the crime around the convention center.
Price guides really should not be a place where there is competition, should it? We all know that Red Book prices aren't really accurate, don't we? So having CDN data sets available can only help.
The only real downside would be if CDN chose to eliminate coverage of certain coins that it doesn't currently track. But I would consider that damage to be minimal since you are only losing guesswork pricing as far as I can tell.
It is important to note that neither enterprise is setting prices. They are (supposedly) simply reporting them.
Yeah, but that's not a Whitman issue. Just ask the people responsible for site selection for ANA shows. There are only so many places where it makes economic sense to have a large show, and Whitman is not a non-profit with a mandate to serve a membership.
Baltimore works because it's proximate to a lot of people and its not insanely expensive, crappy and getting worse surrounding area notwithstanding. Maybe the CDN people will want to give Philly another shot. It's a great location for a show, and the shows do very well when they have them, but Whitman finally reached its limit with the union situation there. Maybe CDN will be able to institute a reset.
Otherwise, none of the usual suggestions work, for one reason on another. Baltimore works for dealers, the auction houses and the promoter, so it's very unlikely to change, just because ownership is changing. They are probably locked in for the next few years anyway.
In an ideal world the collection of the data is easier to combine (either more resources working on the problem or less expensive to collect), and then you could generate four different views of the data from the single source.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
It won't be different if you were colorblind
First time hearing the news. Will the Whitman albums and folders remain in production?
Custom album maker and numismatic photographer.
Need a personalized album made? Design it on the website below and I'll build it for you.
https://www.donahuenumismatics.com/.
Whitman is not a manufacturing company by any stretch. Everything is outsourced to third parties, mostly in China.
They own a bit of IP. Hardly anything to have purchased.
I bet the price was quite low.
Yes, they’ll remain in production! There are no plans to discontinue albums and folders. 😊
I hope they leave the show in Baltimore. Sure don't want
any part of Philly or New York.
Thank you all for the words of support. I concur with most of the positive sentiments expressed here. You might be surprised to know that Whitman does indeed manufacture items in their Florence, AL location including the plastic coin tubes, mylar storage pages, 2x2 cardboard flips, and more. It's an incredible company with so many great attributes, especially the people! We are committed to continuing the great work they've done for decades, and benefit from the best of both companies. Nothing to cut -- only to grow!
Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com)
PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
This has tremendous potential for the hobby. Keeping fingers crossed...
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
NY is a non-starter. Philly would be great because it's a great coin town, and a beautiful convention center with the Reading Terminal Market next door. But it's also not happening, unless new management at Whitman chooses to give it another shot, because they swore it off due to union issues after their last show in Philly, which was something like 10 years ago now.
As much as people dislike Baltimore, and as much as Inner Harbor is becoming a toilet, again, the shows there are entrenched, and do well, so there is no reason, other than idle speculation, to expect any changes.
I read lots of booing about the shows in Baltimore, but truly where else might they be held that is so easy to get to for so many folks, has ample hotel, convention and restaurant space and where you can get in-and-out pretty darn quickly? I like the shows in Baltimore and simply take a room at the Hilton Inner Harbor and am to the convention center no sweat.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Evolution rather than revolution is a good thing.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Maybe they could even try Nashville!
A: The year they spend more on their library than their coin collection.
A numismatist is judged more on the content of their library than the content of their cabinet.
LMAO. Well played.
I wish them luck. They have made many positive changes to the GREYSHEET.
John Feigenbaum is one of the hardest workers in numismatics. I would expect only positive changes to come to Whitman.
I love the merger. I am sure there are operational efficiencies to be had, and the pricing data that CDN can provide will only further strengthen Whitman's publications. There are multiple ave. for pricing (TPG, Sold Listings, Auction Results, etc.) so I am not worried about antitrust. I would much rather Whitman be acquired by a coin-focused company than a large conglomerate with no vested interest in the the coin hobby. Time will tell - wish them well.
I am a newer collector (started April 2020), and I primarily focus on U.S. Half Cents and Type Coins. Early copper is my favorite.
THANK YOU! I love the merger, as well, and the Anderson family made a point to say that they had preferred us the buyer for exactly this reason.
Whitman Brands: President/CEO (www.greysheet.com; www.whitman.com)
PNG: Executive Director (www.pngdealers.org)
I had the thought today that CDN should try to buy out Krause from Penguin and start making the massive catalogs for world coins again and anything else coin-related that Krause was up to.
Custom album maker and numismatic photographer.
Need a personalized album made? Design it on the website below and I'll build it for you.
https://www.donahuenumismatics.com/.
Don't think there is a lot if any money in doing those catalogs (though I miss them).
Also, I have never understood the comments about the Baltimore site as I have lived in the area for 40 years, going to the Convention Center for shows since before 1993 and find the Inner Harbor (NOT the surrounding areas) extremely safe. The occasional panhandler is there but they have never bothered me or even some of my more decrepit friends. Access is wonderful from the DMV (DC, Maryland, Virginia) as well as most other East Coast cities.
Philly? NOT. That place seemed a lot more dangerous and a PIA to get to and park with the featured "freeways" anything but and plenty of uncomfortable ambience.
As busy as my work and family schedule is, I am occasionally even unable to get to Baltimore, let alone alternate locations, so obviously vote for it to remain just where it is.
Well, just Love coins, period.
There's definitely not a lot of money, if any, in those catalogs which is why they went away. Publishing is tough. People don't like to pay for content.
My understanding is that Whitman is looking at the Greater Philadelphia Expo Center outside of Philly in Oaks, right near King of Prussia for an additional show, not to move one of the Baltimore shows. If they moved one of the Baltimore shows, it would apparently be the summer show. The Greater Philly Expo Center hosts major hobby shows regularly and would be a decent place to host a show, although if large enough, the bourse there would have to be split into sections. One of the smaller halls was recently used for the Philly Coin Expo, and that seemed to be a good show for the dealers there. Even with a potentially split bourse, it would still would work well imho. Certainly safe and easy to get to, with plenty of hotels and restaurants a short drive away. I went to a Lego Brickfest there not long ago and it was a great venue for that, and absolutely packed with a line that was a solid 1/4 mile to get in the door.
It's about a 40 minute car ride from the airport.
Just to give an idea of the size of the potential bourse, this is how the Lego Brickfest was configured. You walk in, through the lobby, to security, then down a hall to the admittance area, then onto the floor. Halls D and E were occupied by a flea market. Halls D and E are also where the Philly Coin Expo was. The main challenge is that it's not super-updated and doesn't feel as nice as the fancy convention centers in major cities.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
@JohnF
Congrats on the acquisition!
I’m an avid fan of both your products!
If I can offer some constructive criticism, while Whitman has the best layout of any of the leading album makers, I would like you to improve the quality of the Whitman Albums, I had 2 that came apart with minimal usage, one ended up me having to replace a few coins as the album cover came off. On one the blue backing came off the page and in another the cover just ripped off while holding the album. I will state customer service was great on the album that the paper came loose as they sent a replacement page, although the replacement page had a worse issue and hence I am still using the original one.
But your books, magazines and your website article are great reads!
Good luck!
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
@DelawareDoons has brought up the idea of the Greater Philadelphia Expo Center (GPEC) in Oaks, near King of Prussia for a possible show site. I've done several fencing tournaments at the GPEC and my impression is that it's a dump.
Parking fills up quickly and everyone who attends will likely have to drive there as there aren't hotels or train stations within walking distance and the hotels, food selection and surrounding area isn't anything someone would want to travel to experience. My experiences there also appeared to indicate that the GPEC didn't have nearly enough bathroom accessibility or water fountains (water refill stations). If someone wants to have a coin show there then that is great, but if they intend to have a show to draw folks from all over for a larger experience then I think the place is woefully inadequate.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Few people bought a Krause every year because the prices were static and unrealistic.
This isn't to say that more realistic pricing on a more timely basis would make them profitable but it would certainly sell more catalogs.
It would also help if they more more relevant meaning covering coins from at least 1800 to date. Unfortunately this would necessitate removal of most NCLT and probably gold as well. These could be in separate volumes.
A lot of room is taken up by headings that could be trimmed. The first Krause's were far easier to use than the later ones which changed the names of countries from year to year and even omitted them sometimes.
They did have separate volumes. At one time 1800 up was in one volume but it became too large. They then went to one per century. There was a separate gold catalog, although it was also in the regular century volumes.
People never bought them annually, however. Partly because the prices were static but also because no one was trying to collect the entire world.
There are lots of type collectors and those who collect multiple countries. The best thing about Krause is it brought all the coins to your fingertips to help you decide what to collect.
There's plenty of justification for listing only circulating issues; these are usually the only coins seen in junk boxes, poundage, and accumulations of all sorts. They're the coins soldiers have brought home from war throughout time. They rarely bring home gold, special issues, and NCLT. They bring home circulating coinage because these are the ones in circulation. Of course most collectors would also want to buy the gold volume and the NCLT volume from time to time but a vibrant up to date catalog would successfully compete with electronic catalogs that are clumsy, hard to use, and with meaningless pricing.
Of course competing successfully is not the same thing as making a profit. These markets are small and overhead significant.
I did the GB section for them for about 12 years - the 19th and 20th C. predecimal and it really took a LOT of work at NO pay.....It was just too much but I did manage to influence Spink in a couple of areas.....Very, very hard to put it together in a meaningful way. I had done MUCH more on the proof and pattern section but they edited that out mostly.
Well, just Love coins, period.
Doing it right requires a lot of work and knowledge of specific markets. I always wondered why Krause didn't partner with the publishers of price guides in specific countries. There guides were often off base too but at least most had a good handle on relative valuations.
There are no simple solutions and in time the internet will be able to provide a pretty good feel for valuations of most world coins. In the interim collectors should understand the various factors that cause rare and desirable coins to sell for pennies because very similar factors can cause common coins to sell for massive premiums. This cuts across the board for collectibles markets that are thinly capitalized. Even nailing down the prices of widely collected US coins can be like stapling jello to a hickory tree. Markets are continually evolving as participants come and go and supply fluctuates. With many world coins there can be almost no supply and almost no demand. World coin collectors like most collectors often tend to collect the same thing for a while and then move on. this can play havoc with annual guides.
I noticed the work you must have done in the British section and thought it was a big improvement.
I'm afraid it's more complex than you realize. The printed books went to Penguin. The weekly printed magazines - the primary source of pricing data and new issues - went to Active Interest Media (AIM). And the publishing platform was turned off.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")