_1948_Swell_Robinson_ said:
If football was only played between the 20's, if first down pickups on third or 4th and 1 were of no significance, if pass catching ability was a moot point, and if blocking didn't matter at all, then Barry was better than Payton.
Otherwise, the way NFL football has been played and the way each skill set has been valued, then Walter Payton was better than Barry Sanders.
Intangibles. Not that it is needed, but @craig44 if you are going to give Tom Brady the credit over other QB for his intangible and leadership value, I would say you need to do the same for Payton, especially in his workhouse and dedication value, instead of to a guy who quit.
I think the record shows Sanders was better at running the football than payton was. i think that they were very close as pass catchers. i think walter had about 1 more reception every 3 games than barry. he averager about a third of a reception/game more than barry.
as far as intangibles, i do think they are a thing. there is no way to quantify it, but some players have "it." i wasnt old enough to really grasp the NFL game until paytons last season or so. i will defer to you on that. I wouldnt call barry a "quitter." that would be someone who leaves their team during a game or during a season like antonio brown or simone biles. Barry retired after the 1998 season. I dont think he was any more a quitter then than when Peyton "quit" on the Bears after the 1987 season.
Quitter may be a bit strong, but Sanders was under contract and playing games about retirement, the Lions coach tried repeatedly to talk to Barry about his intentions and Sanders wouldn't speak to him. It was a very poor way to "retire".
I don't think Walter had to pay back salary to the Bears when he retired.
It's really not a big deal in comparing them, but had Sanders honored his contract, he probably surpasses Peyton.
If I am understanding you correctly, you believe that any player who retired before their contract expired retired in a "poor" way?
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No. You have missed my point completely. But, I'll address a couple of your examples.
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Does that mean John Elway retired in a poor way because he retired with a year left on his contract?
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No. He was 38 years old, not 30 and he was communicating with management and let them know ahead of time.
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I think it is more respectful to retire if your heart/body is not in it early than to just play out the string and earn that paycheck but not be invested in the team.
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Sanders was not "playing out the string", he was one year removed from perhaps his best season. He then tried to keep his entire signing bonus, that was wrong.
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The Royals wanted George brett to come back for one more season in 1994 and he ended up refusing because he said he would have been doing it only for the money, his heart wasnt in it anymore. He said he respected the game too much to do that.
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That's not why Barry quit. Brett was 40, not 30. Don't understand why you even brought Brett up, the guy was ancient.
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I really only have a problem when an athlete pulls a simone biles or antonio brown and leaves during a season or event. that is what i consider quitting.
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Not familiar with these two guys and not going to look them up.
I said right from the beginning that it was hard to blame Barry too much for quitting. The Lions had been a disaster for years and were letting good players leave.
However, Sanders went about it in a poor way by refusing to respond to repeated inquiries from the head coach, who had given Barry a deadline of June 1st do let the club know about his retirement. When that passed, the organization took his lack of response as an indication he would play.
“I had called Barry perhaps 10 times,” Ross said at a July 28 news conference. “I wrote him three or four personal handwritten, as many as five to nine pages in length, explaining our situation and this type of thing. As recently as 10 days … I wrote another handwritten note with the idea to give him an update on where we were and where I thought our football team was and where our organization was.”
All Ross got in return was crickets.
Barry then retired just before training camp. He also tried to keep his entire signing bonus.
"An arbitrator ruled Sanders had to repay more than $5.5 million and forgo another $1.75 million of the $11-million signing bonus he received."
Peyton, on the other hand;
"At the end of the 1986 season, he announced that he would retire from professional football after completing the 1987 NFL season."
See the difference?
I still don't think it's that big a deal.
Now I'll ask you how you feel about another quitter.
RANDY MOSS.
He was great his first few years, but everyone knew here in Minnesota Randy was a huge problem waiting to happen. Cris Carter (who overcame his attitude problems) was assigned to try to keep Moss "under control", but after Carter left, Moss quit trying to catch balls thrown to him over the middle, actually walked off the field before the end of a game and told the media; "I only play when I want to play". Moss was great when he could outrun a DB he had a 6 inch height advantage on, but if he got hit hard even once early in a game he often disappeared.
The Vikings did everything they could to kiss his a$$, including implementing the "Randy ratio" trying to get him the ball more. Moss wasn't interested, and the Vikings eventually gave him to Oakland for next to nothing. He responded by giving little or no effort for Oakland, and they got rid of him.
He finally played for a coach who wasn't going to put up with his garbage and he has three great years, although he was a non factor in big games.
Randy Moss, had he given anywhere near 100%, he would have been the greatest receiver of all time. Most overrated player ever.
I think we will have to agree to disagree about Sanders Being a "quitter" or having "retired in a bad way"
to me, quitting means sitting out or not giving it your all on plays (Moss), leaving your team in the middle of a game (antonio brown) or event (simone biles) Barry waited until the offseason. He was/is a very private person. we are basically hearing the lions version of events. for years they refused to put a team around Barry. I think Sanders probably realized what his workload was doing to his body and after not hearing what he wanted from the team about personnel moves, he decided to retire.
Well, no, it's not the Lions "version of events", it's how it happened.
It's not that big of a deal, but trying to keep his entire signing bonus when you decide not to honor your contract is wrong. There's really no way to avoid that fact.
It doesn't make Barry a lesser running back than Walter.
It was just an observation. Barry had every right to retire. In my opinion, on this instance, he should have done it better.
It's not that big of a deal. The Lions were a crappy organization and the new head coach was a pain in the a$$ as far as the players were concerned. They had just let three very good players leave.
I don't blame Sanders for retiring, but he could have shown the organization that made him a millionaire how much more class he had by doing things the "right" way.
It's not that big of a deal.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Bronco Nagurski deserves some love as well, that guy could have played today without all the training and nutrition, he was a man amongst boys and he doesn't get mentioned enough
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That reminds me of when I worked with a bunch of sports fanatics, we used to go back and forth with trivia and debates on who was better.
One of the guys who wasn't a sports nut, Wayne, got so sick of the constant sports conversations, everytime a trivia or "who's the best" question came up he would shout out "BRONKO NARGURSKI!"
Good times.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@JoeBanzai said:
If you just want to look at a single number, rushing yards per carry, Sanders wins. I didn't see that as the question.
If you are looking for the better offensive football player, it's a different story.
In total yards from scrimmage, Walter had four years over 2,000, Barry had two. Years between 1,800-2,000 yards Walter three, Barry two.
Looking at the best 10 seasons of total yards from scrimmage, head to head, Walter wins 6 to 4.
The next 10 years, Barry takes it 6 to 4. If Peyton gets his usual number of touches in 1982, it's a tie.
Then you get Walter's worst three years where he got 907, 892 and 750 total yards. Barry gets you ZERO.
In those "worst" 3 seasons Walter had yards per touch averages of 5.0, 4.2 & 3.9 not 2.0.
Sanders was much more "electric" and exciting of a runner, he did things nobody else has ever done, but he also got tackled behind the line of scrimmage a lot; 1,114 yards in losses over his career. That's a LOT of drive killers. You are ignoring that.
Sanders was not enough better with his very slight advantage in ypt to make up for 3 extra seasons of productivity.
This makes sense.
Can we call this a tie, or do we have a definitive winner here.
After 10,000 posts I MAY have won my first message board debate!
😁
Well, to be honest, even a broken clock gets it right twice a day. 😉
That hurts my feelings.😢
This will make you feel better.
You went to the SB in 76/77 and you not only beat us but held Franco to 2 ypc.
Look at Bleier and Foreman and some pathetic QB play by Bradshaw and Lee.
That DOES help a bit.
Vikings had some TREMENDOUS defensive teams. Never had enough on offense to get to the level of the Steelers.
Put Franco, Swann and Stallworth in there with Francis and it would have spelled absolute doom for the rest of the NFL.
Foreman did have about 3 great years.
Tremendous is correct!!!
As good a D as Pittsburgh at times !!!!
I’ve been trying to make the case that Bradshaw, Swann , Harris, and Webster were HUGE for us !
It wasn’t just our D because yours was just as good !
Terry was just 10% of the team, but we loved him. He was a great QB.
You ran into an incredible Raiders team in 76-77 who was as good and better then us at times.
Forum members on ignore
Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
daltex
@JoeBanzai said:
If you just want to look at a single number, rushing yards per carry, Sanders wins. I didn't see that as the question.
If you are looking for the better offensive football player, it's a different story.
In total yards from scrimmage, Walter had four years over 2,000, Barry had two. Years between 1,800-2,000 yards Walter three, Barry two.
Looking at the best 10 seasons of total yards from scrimmage, head to head, Walter wins 6 to 4.
The next 10 years, Barry takes it 6 to 4. If Peyton gets his usual number of touches in 1982, it's a tie.
Then you get Walter's worst three years where he got 907, 892 and 750 total yards. Barry gets you ZERO.
In those "worst" 3 seasons Walter had yards per touch averages of 5.0, 4.2 & 3.9 not 2.0.
Sanders was much more "electric" and exciting of a runner, he did things nobody else has ever done, but he also got tackled behind the line of scrimmage a lot; 1,114 yards in losses over his career. That's a LOT of drive killers. You are ignoring that.
Sanders was not enough better with his very slight advantage in ypt to make up for 3 extra seasons of productivity.
This makes sense.
Can we call this a tie, or do we have a definitive winner here.
After 10,000 posts I MAY have won my first message board debate!
😁
Well, to be honest, even a broken clock gets it right twice a day. 😉
That hurts my feelings.😢
This will make you feel better.
You went to the SB in 76/77 and you not only beat us but held Franco to 2 ypc.
Look at Bleier and Foreman and some pathetic QB play by Bradshaw and Lee.
That DOES help a bit.
Vikings had some TREMENDOUS defensive teams. Never had enough on offense to get to the level of the Steelers.
Put Franco, Swann and Stallworth in there with Francis and it would have spelled absolute doom for the rest of the NFL.
Foreman did have about 3 great years.
Tremendous is correct!!!
As good a D as Pittsburgh at times !!!!
I’ve been trying to make the case that Bradshaw, Swann , Harris, and Webster were HUGE for us !
It wasn’t just our D because yours was just as good !
Terry was just 10% of the team, but we loved him. He was a great QB.
You ran into an incredible Raiders team in 76-77 who was as good and better then us at times.
You got everything correct except for the part about Bradshaw!
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
@lanemyer85 said:
34 was the better receiver
34 was the better blocker
34 had his own line of Roos
34 never got fat
Payton way better blocker. Better pass receiver. Even threw 8 touchdowns and had nearly same QB rating as Bradshaw.
People are assuming that Sanders was the better runner by virtue of his better yards per carry. How much of the spread offense of the run and shoot helped that compared to Payton? That is in addition to Sanders having less 1 yd opportunities that helped his YPC. Then add the abysmal QB the Bears had for half of Payton's career(making Payton the only threat to the defense).
In other words, it is no slam dunk that Sanders ran with the football better, even statistically(when accounting for variables).
Visually, we saw Payton with elite elusive moves as well, missing many would be tacklers...but in addition to that, Payton also had a very bruising punishing ability to where he would demolish would be tacklers for the extra tough yards, or even run straight through them for many more yards.
I would say the best description of Walter Payton's running the ball ability is that he was a mix of Barry Sanders and Earl Campbell, two of the RB's being hailed as the all time greats, and Payton could do what they EACH of those guys did best.
Call me crazy, but if I can take the best of Barry Sanders and the best of Earl Campbell and put them into one back, I'm taking that back...and his name is Walter Payton.
I know highlights can make anyone good, but look at the highlights to see the dimensions he could beat you...
I would say Payton overall better player but Sanders better running the ball. Barry averaged 100 per game Payton 88 and Walter with more attempts.
What I find funny about the discussion is how often it’s mentioned that sanders had more carries that lost yards. Did you guys watch his games and see how often and how fast the D line was in his face. If he didn’t juke and jive to avoid them he would have finished his career with about 3 yards per attempt. Of course he didn’t always break loose but the O line deserves some blame for crappy blocking.
@JoeBanzai said:
If you just want to look at a single number, rushing yards per carry, Sanders wins. I didn't see that as the question.
If you are looking for the better offensive football player, it's a different story.
In total yards from scrimmage, Walter had four years over 2,000, Barry had two. Years between 1,800-2,000 yards Walter three, Barry two.
Looking at the best 10 seasons of total yards from scrimmage, head to head, Walter wins 6 to 4.
The next 10 years, Barry takes it 6 to 4. If Peyton gets his usual number of touches in 1982, it's a tie.
Then you get Walter's worst three years where he got 907, 892 and 750 total yards. Barry gets you ZERO.
In those "worst" 3 seasons Walter had yards per touch averages of 5.0, 4.2 & 3.9 not 2.0.
Sanders was much more "electric" and exciting of a runner, he did things nobody else has ever done, but he also got tackled behind the line of scrimmage a lot; 1,114 yards in losses over his career. That's a LOT of drive killers. You are ignoring that.
Sanders was not enough better with his very slight advantage in ypt to make up for 3 extra seasons of productivity.
This makes sense.
Can we call this a tie, or do we have a definitive winner here.
After 10,000 posts I MAY have won my first message board debate!
😁
Well, to be honest, even a broken clock gets it right twice a day. 😉
That hurts my feelings.😢
This will make you feel better.
You went to the SB in 76/77 and you not only beat us but held Franco to 2 ypc.
Look at Bleier and Foreman and some pathetic QB play by Bradshaw and Lee.
That DOES help a bit.
Vikings had some TREMENDOUS defensive teams. Never had enough on offense to get to the level of the Steelers.
Put Franco, Swann and Stallworth in there with Francis and it would have spelled absolute doom for the rest of the NFL.
Foreman did have about 3 great years.
Tremendous is correct!!!
As good a D as Pittsburgh at times !!!!
I’ve been trying to make the case that Bradshaw, Swann , Harris, and Webster were HUGE for us !
It wasn’t just our D because yours was just as good !
Terry was just 10% of the team, but we loved him. He was a great QB.
You ran into an incredible Raiders team in 76-77 who was as good and better then us at times.
Well this thread was fun while it lasted. All things eventually return to the Bradshaw Wars. 🤬
@Darin said:
I would say Payton overall better player but Sanders better running the ball. Barry averaged 100 per game Payton 88 and Walter with more attempts.
What I find funny about the discussion is how often it’s mentioned that sanders had more carries that lost yards. Did you guys watch his games and see how often and how fast the D line was in his face. If he didn’t juke and jive to avoid them he would have finished his career with about 3 yards per attempt. Of course he didn’t always break loose but the O line deserves some blame for crappy blocking.
It's a style difference. Barry could have done less dodging and dancing and just run it into the line, like Walter, but that wasn't his style.
Barry (along with Sayers and Hugh McElhenny, maybe Simpson) was a super exciting back, it would be boring if they were all just plowing into the line.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Still a harder stadium to play in than the Silverdome because of the weather.
You'll get no argument from me there.
I had forgotten that Soldier field put in turf back then.
Thanks for correcting me!
I was actually tempted to start arguing with you about it, many here can't/won't admit when they are wrong. Thought maybe I could mess with you a bit. 😁
We all know I am right twice a day! ⏰
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
I don't blame Sanders for retiring, but he could have shown the organization that made him a millionaire how much more class he had by doing things the "right" way.
It's not that big of a deal.
Barry timed it intentionally took screw the organization. He knew he wanted to retire but waited so Detroit wouldn't draft a running back. It was wrong.
I don't blame Sanders for retiring, but he could have shown the organization that made him a millionaire how much more class he had by doing things the "right" way.
It's not that big of a deal.
Barry timed it intentionally took screw the organization. He knew he wanted to retire but waited so Detroit wouldn't draft a running back. It was wrong.
Well, according to the interview I read, he has no regrets about it.
The Lions were simply pathetic, but he sort of stooped to their level as I see it.
I worked at a place for 24 years that was ok for a long time and then management just changed into a bunch of a holes.
When I quit, I didn't say anything bad during my exit interview (I sure wanted to) there really wasn't anything to gain.
2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
Comments
Well, no, it's not the Lions "version of events", it's how it happened.
It's not that big of a deal, but trying to keep his entire signing bonus when you decide not to honor your contract is wrong. There's really no way to avoid that fact.
It doesn't make Barry a lesser running back than Walter.
It was just an observation. Barry had every right to retire. In my opinion, on this instance, he should have done it better.
It's not that big of a deal. The Lions were a crappy organization and the new head coach was a pain in the a$$ as far as the players were concerned. They had just let three very good players leave.
I don't blame Sanders for retiring, but he could have shown the organization that made him a millionaire how much more class he had by doing things the "right" way.
It's not that big of a deal.
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That reminds me of when I worked with a bunch of sports fanatics, we used to go back and forth with trivia and debates on who was better.
One of the guys who wasn't a sports nut, Wayne, got so sick of the constant sports conversations, everytime a trivia or "who's the best" question came up he would shout out "BRONKO NARGURSKI!"
Good times.
Tremendous is correct!!!
As good a D as Pittsburgh at times !!!!
I’ve been trying to make the case that Bradshaw, Swann , Harris, and Webster were HUGE for us !
It wasn’t just our D because yours was just as good !
Terry was just 10% of the team, but we loved him. He was a great QB.
You ran into an incredible Raiders team in 76-77 who was as good and better then us at times.
Forum members on ignore
Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
daltex
You got everything correct except for the part about Bradshaw!
Payton was the ultimate warrior. I have him at #1 all time.
Terry Bradshaw was AMAZING!!
Ignore list -Basebal21
34 was the better receiver
34 was the better blocker
34 had his own line of Roos
34 never got fat
Payton way better blocker. Better pass receiver. Even threw 8 touchdowns and had nearly same QB rating as Bradshaw.
People are assuming that Sanders was the better runner by virtue of his better yards per carry. How much of the spread offense of the run and shoot helped that compared to Payton? That is in addition to Sanders having less 1 yd opportunities that helped his YPC. Then add the abysmal QB the Bears had for half of Payton's career(making Payton the only threat to the defense).
In other words, it is no slam dunk that Sanders ran with the football better, even statistically(when accounting for variables).
Visually, we saw Payton with elite elusive moves as well, missing many would be tacklers...but in addition to that, Payton also had a very bruising punishing ability to where he would demolish would be tacklers for the extra tough yards, or even run straight through them for many more yards.
I would say the best description of Walter Payton's running the ball ability is that he was a mix of Barry Sanders and Earl Campbell, two of the RB's being hailed as the all time greats, and Payton could do what they EACH of those guys did best.
Call me crazy, but if I can take the best of Barry Sanders and the best of Earl Campbell and put them into one back, I'm taking that back...and his name is Walter Payton.
I know highlights can make anyone good, but look at the highlights to see the dimensions he could beat you...
of course he was. How else would Punky QB run for like 1000 yards over 34's last 4 seasons.
I would say Payton overall better player but Sanders better running the ball. Barry averaged 100 per game Payton 88 and Walter with more attempts.
What I find funny about the discussion is how often it’s mentioned that sanders had more carries that lost yards. Did you guys watch his games and see how often and how fast the D line was in his face. If he didn’t juke and jive to avoid them he would have finished his career with about 3 yards per attempt. Of course he didn’t always break loose but the O line deserves some blame for crappy blocking.
As long as a certain QB in black isn’t mentioned which ruins all threads.
Well this thread was fun while it lasted. All things eventually return to the Bradshaw Wars. 🤬
...........................
death, taxes, and the Bradshaw Wars
It's a style difference. Barry could have done less dodging and dancing and just run it into the line, like Walter, but that wasn't his style.
Barry (along with Sayers and Hugh McElhenny, maybe Simpson) was a super exciting back, it would be boring if they were all just plowing into the line.
You'll get no argument from me there.
I had forgotten that Soldier field put in turf back then.
Thanks for correcting me!
I was actually tempted to start arguing with you about it, many here can't/won't admit when they are wrong. Thought maybe I could mess with you a bit. 😁
We all know I am right twice a day! ⏰
Barry timed it intentionally took screw the organization. He knew he wanted to retire but waited so Detroit wouldn't draft a running back. It was wrong.
Well, according to the interview I read, he has no regrets about it.
The Lions were simply pathetic, but he sort of stooped to their level as I see it.
I worked at a place for 24 years that was ok for a long time and then management just changed into a bunch of a holes.
When I quit, I didn't say anything bad during my exit interview (I sure wanted to) there really wasn't anything to gain.