Walter Payton or Barry Sanders
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Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
daltex
Walter Payton or Barry Sanders
This is a public poll: others will see what you voted for.
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As much as I respect and appreciate how great Sweetness was, Barry Sanders is my guy over every other running back
As much as I respect and appreciate how great Sweetness was, Barry Sanders is my guy over every other running back
Are we playing Sega football 1992? I'll go Sanders
I will take Barry. the guy was more electric than any other player i have ever watched.
the only RB I can ever put up with Sanders is Jim Brown.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I'll agree that Barry was more "electric", but I'll take the extra 37 games Walter showed up for.
Those 37 extra games where he's averaging 2 yards a carry and 39 yards a game?
You'll have to explain that, please.
In his final 3 seasons (44 games), he rushed for 3417 yards and 4.3 yards per carry.
His final year, he had a 3.7 yard per carry average. Where do you get 2 ypc?
In those 37 games Barry contributed nothing to his team, so even if your numbers are correct (I don't know how they can be) it's better than nothing.
Didn't Barry also quit/retire in the middle of a contract? Not that I can blame him too much, after all it was the Lions, a pretty inept organization.
You could make the same argument for walter vs jim brown. brown was better than payton, and i would say by a significant amount. but yes, walter did play longer, while Brown retired young.
take Browns career and match it up with paytons best 9 seasons and then compare the two. no RB in history can match Browns black ink. no one.
Do the same with Barry. take Walters 10 best seasons and compare the two.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
That wasn't the question though. Those are career accomplishments, not "best 10 year numbers". Jim Brown wasn't part of the comparison either, but he might be better than either of these guys.
So just ignore the fact that Payton played longer and contributed 2-3 more years (6 more than Brown BTW) to helping his team?
If you choose to disregard how long a player performed for, then I'll take Jim Brown first, then YES Barry Sanders above Walter.
But if we are going to ignore some things to get our desired result, the greatest RB in NFL history is Marion Motley. His 5.7 yards per carry is WAY above them all.
The goal of a running back is to gain the most yards each time he is given the ball.
Marion wins hands down.
Both Brown and Sanders quit early, Sanders even had to return $ to the Lions that had been paid to him.
The most confusing part of the debate is the fact that Walter won a Super Bowl and Barry did not, I was under the impression that was what many here think is the difference between players being compared.
@JoeBanzai
Look at the black ink. walter led in rushing 1x, rushing td 1x. barry was 4x leader in rushing yds 1x rushing td.
barry was also better when it came to rates.
i dont think you can really say barry had a short career. he played 10 seasons and averaged 306 carries/season and retired as a great player.
Walter played 13 seasons and averaged 295 carries/season.
you mentioned that payton contributed 3 more seasons than sanders. Say we take out paytons 3 worst seasons so his 10 greatest seasons look better compared with sanders. in those 3 seasons, he had 490 carries for an average of 163 carries. those 3 weak seasons spanned his career, rookie, last and mid career. he averaged 3.6 yards/carry for those 3 weak seasons. so yes, for the extra 3 seasons Payton played over Sanders, he performed as a below average backup RB. I believe league average hovers around 4 yards per carry.
so if you think 3 below average backup quality seasons push Walter over the edge in the Sanders comparison, I would have to strongly disagree.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Close call- would anyone reconsider if their respective college careers were included?
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
...
Are you referring to those who chose Payton, I assume?
Did I say Barry had a short career?
No.
Why on earth would I take away 3 years from Payton when my reason for choosing him is the fact he played those extra years?
No.
Apparently, you're not reading my posts (not that I blame you), I clearly stated that if you disregard length of career, Sanders was better than Peyton, but not as good as Brown........and Marion Motley is the GOAT RB.
Too bad Barry chose to hang it up, even though he was under contract, when he was still great. That's a negative, his coach was begging him for an answer on if he was going to retire and Barry blew him off.
The difference here is that I saw every game these two played against the Vikings, Barry would sometimes lose yardage going for the big play, Walter didn't fool around he got the ball and kicked your a$$. I happen to think there's more value in never getting caught 10 yards behind the line of scrimmage, even if it means you lose the spectacular long runs.
Adrian Peterson was somewhat similar; 2 yard gain, 3 yard gain, -2 yards, then he would get loose and go for 50. He killed a lot of drives with a lot of short runs and then boom, he gets a big run and his ypc looks great. The problem is, if you're on a weak offensive team (like the Lions), long runs often don't equal points.
I read somewhere that Sanders had more rushes that ended up with negative yardage than anyone. I don't know if that's a fact.
I see you haven't mentioned how they compare as pass catchers, looks like Walter was the better receiver.
Besides.....Walter won a Super Bowl and Barry didn't.
Don't ask me to give up his SB victory, the answer will be;
No.
😁
Everything worked out in the end. Sanders was unhappy with the direction of the Lions. I've read that he would have gone elsewhere if possible instead of retiring.
Running behind less than great lines and within less than good offenses all factored into the career Sanders had, which was unique, worthy to some of being called the best, and left people wondering what more could he have done.
You said you liked Walter because he played 37 more games. Ok, fine. If we're comparing totals and giving him credit for 37 games, fine. He also had 776 more carries for 1457 more yards. That's 20 carries for each extra game and 39 yards for each extra game. That's 2 yards a carry.
That's a roundabout way of saying "37 extra games? Whoopdeedoo." It took him roughly a third of those games just to catch up to Barry.
That is what I was trying to convey as well. I even tried to do it in such a way as to make it look better for Walter by simply removing his 3 worst seasons (which were pretty bad) and only compare his 10 best with Barrys 10.
it is very difficult to make a convincing argument for Walter by saying he played more. because when he played more, it was subpar.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
@JoeBanzai is correct that Sanders had the most runs for a loss. It wasn't because of his O-line, but rather his style and him looking to make bigger plays. That is a knock and a real one.
In totality, adding up all the times Sanders took his team from 1st and 10 to 2nd and 12 as often as he did, takes away some of the luster of the times he ripped off 40 yard gains in terms of winning, because sustained drives stalled too much as a result, regardless what his career YDS per carry is.
Payton was the ultimate short yardage RB(especially at the goal line) and this hurt his career yards per carry, whereas Sanders was taken out a lot on short yardage(at the goal line too) and this helped his career yards per carry, so just putting up their career yards per carry is not entirely valid.
When you add their receiving ability and blocking ability(of which Payton is so far superior than Sanders), then Payton is a better running back and football player.
Payton even threw 8 touchdowns, and since sample size is a non-factor on these boards most of the time, Walter Payton had a better career TD/INT ratio than Terry Bradshaw @4for4
, and Payton didn't have Swann and Stallworth, he had Baschnagel and Suhy catching them lol.
**Intangibles for their stats, the Bears offense for most of his career was a clear run first offense where Payton was the ONLY focal point of the defense. All this talk about QB's and their value, for half of Payton's career they had abysmal QB's where defense stacked the box against Payton. So any knock against Payton on total TD's, or yards per carry, is partially the result of absolute crap at QB, and Payton excelled despite that.
Wheras the Run N Shoot offense Detroit had did free Sanders up a bit more, even though they weren't always the best passing team either(but better than the Bears). Then the few years they had Herman Moore they did have a better than average passing game, just enough to allow Sanders to run much more free than Payton ever had the luxury of doing.
@1948_Swell_Robinson, while Barry did lose yards as a runner sometimes, it is a stat that is incomplete and only goes back to 1994, at least as far as I can see. for the last 5 seasons of his career, Sanders lost 614 yards. About 103 yards per season or about 6.4 yards/game. He did lose yards, but not as many as we may recollect. Our memories can oftentimes be faulty.
We do not have stats for Payton, brown or anyone else before 1994, so any recollection of that would be simple conjecture. And we all know how memories can be.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
If you just want to look at a single number, rushing yards per carry, Sanders wins. I didn't see that as the question.
If you are looking for the better offensive football player, it's a different story.
In total yards from scrimmage, Walter had four years over 2,000, Barry had two. Years between 1,800-2,000 yards Walter three, Barry two.
Looking at the best 10 seasons of total yards from scrimmage, head to head, Walter wins 6 to 4.
The next 10 years, Barry takes it 6 to 4. If Peyton gets his usual number of touches in 1982, it's a tie.
Then you get Walter's worst three years where he got 907, 892 and 750 total yards. Barry gets you ZERO.
In those "worst" 3 seasons Walter had yards per touch averages of 5.0, 4.2 & 3.9 not 2.0.
Sanders was much more "electric" and exciting of a runner, he did things nobody else has ever done, but he also got tackled behind the line of scrimmage a lot; 1,114 yards in losses over his career. That's a LOT of drive killers. You are ignoring that.
Sanders was not enough better with his very slight advantage in ypt to make up for 3 extra seasons of productivity.
Do you really believe that it was any different in the years not counted on Football reference? 1,100 is the number according to some sources. That certainly jives with the recorded numbers on football reference.
Check in comparison to his contemporary Emmitt Smith to gauge it better as that was always the comparison between the two.
This makes sense.
Can we call this a tie, or do we have a definitive winner here.
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Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
daltex
Short yardage detriment. That hurts your team.
For their careers inside the opponents ten yard line. This is from 1994 and on so it doesn't include some years and also includes Emmitt Smith old man years(also missess some of Emmitt's best years). Payton carried the ball on short yardage like Emmitt did too. So although not Payton, it does show the difference in workload for a feature back who does all the carries and one who gets replaced in short yardage situations.
INSIDE THEIR OPPONENTS 10 yard line: Emmitt has twice the amount of games compared to Barry:
Sanders 83 carries for 109 yds and 16 TD
Emmitt 304 carries for 498 yards and 96 TD
So what you have is Emmitt is taking a bigger hit(like Payton did) on their career yards per carry. It isn't huge but this is only inside the 10. Keep in mind that Sanders got taken out often when the ball was on the one yard line or two, so most of his carries in this split are from further out. Wheras Emmitt was running that ball in those carries from the one or two almost all the time.
SO that explains some of the vast difference in TD's ....but also shows how much Sanders was not able to get the ball into the end zone. Emmitt played twice the games, so even if you double Barry's totals that is still only 32 TD.
Dallas was better offense than Detroit(so they got there a little more), but still doesn't explain away the efficiency per carry or per game on those TD's.
This isn't counting any 3rd and 1 or fourth and 1 on the rest of the field. Most of the splits only have third and 1-3 to go, and we saw Barry get taken out when it was third and one, where as emmitt was diving for 1.5 yards on his stat total more often. So those won't tell the whole story unless it is isolated to third and one and fourth and one where Payton and Emmitt both got the carries and got 1.5 yards, while Sanders got pulled and the FB got the 1.5 yards per carry added to his total.
Walter Payton was the ultimate goal line back. He played for such a horrible offense for half his career and still scored all those rushing TD's...because he was almost unstoppable when he got down there...much like Emmitt...though Payton had a worse line for most of his career.
Meanwhile, Sanders was being replaced in those situations.
So if your best back is getting replaced in the most important time, then how does that make him better than guys who got a similar amount of yards, but got them in the most key yards for their teams??
If football was only played between the 20's, if first down pickups on third or 4th and 1 were of no significance, if pass catching ability was a moot point, and if blocking didn't matter at all, then Barry was better than Payton.
Otherwise, the way NFL football has been played and the way each skill set has been valued, then Walter Payton was better than Barry Sanders.
Intangibles. Not that it is needed, but @craig44 if you are going to give Tom Brady the credit over other QB for his intangible and leadership value, I would say you need to do the same for Payton, especially in his workhouse and dedication value, instead of to a guy who quit.
Some great comments guys!
How about the advantage Barry had playing his home games on artificial turf, whereas Walter played on grass?
In looking at yards per touch, best to worst, Sanders looks to have the 3 best years where he out gained Payton by .8, .6 & .6 yards. Then there were 7 seasons that were almost identical and then there were those 3 where Walter out gained Barry by 4.2, 4.2 & 3.9 yards to 0.0.
I feel like the answer is Walter Payton and I really don't think it's that close. Payton played many more games in miserable weather, was a better receiver, would take on blocks of other teams elite LB's, could throw the ball, much more powerful player and played most of his career on not a bad team; but a horrible team. Payton did everything and did it well/great. Sanders was fantastic....I just think that Payton was better.
Honestly, this was written perfectly. Absolutely perfect. Exactly how I remember their careers. 20-20 Sanders was a highlight reel; but he also was getting taken out of the game in key short yardage situations and certainly goal line situations. Payton simply could do everything on a football field. I can remember Payton having to block Harry Carson and LT and doing a more than decent job most of the time.
nothing much for me to add here, as swell won the internet with his analysis. superb breakdown.
i loved Barry. most electric back i've ever seen. but if we're talking a complete football player, there's no comparison. none. and Sweetness played on some terrible, terrible Bears teams that consisted of absolutely no one else that an opposing defense had to key on. what, are Gary Huff, Bob Avellini, Mike Phipps, and Vince Evans going to keep you up at night as a d-coord? that's a big, fat, resounding negative, and teams stacked the box like it was going out of style to slow down the one Bear who could beat them.
Payton dealt with that for YEARS.
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
After 10,000 posts I MAY have won my first message board debate!
Like Walter Peyton, I never quit trying.
😁
first and goal at the 1, Sanders was nowhere to be found on the football field
it's laughable to think about Payton being pulled in that situation
you'll never be able to outrun a bad diet
I think the record shows Sanders was better at running the football than payton was. i think that they were very close as pass catchers. i think walter had about 1 more reception every 3 games than barry. he averager about a third of a reception/game more than barry.
as far as intangibles, i do think they are a thing. there is no way to quantify it, but some players have "it." i wasnt old enough to really grasp the NFL game until paytons last season or so. i will defer to you on that. I wouldnt call barry a "quitter." that would be someone who leaves their team during a game or during a season like antonio brown or simone biles. Barry retired after the 1998 season. I dont think he was any more a quitter then than when Peyton "quit" on the Bears after the 1987 season.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
As far as the narrative that Sanders could not finish on the goal line? crazy. he sure did it the first 4 years of his career, getting i believe 12 1 yard TD's. the lions let backups vulture barrys TD's to save some wear and tear.
does anyone think that a RB with some of the best vision out of the backfield in NFL history couldnt hit holes from 1 yard out? hogwash. from 94-98 the lions let derek moore, tommy vardell and scott mitchell punch it in from the 1.
does anyone really think derek moore could hit a hole faster or better than Sanders from the 1 yard line?
sanders was already under an extreme workload, averaging over 300 carries/season for his career, so the staff let the QB or the backup RB's punch it in on the goal line and save a little on barry.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
All these top tier running backs were special in their own way, If I had to chose 2 Running Backs at their best it would be Sanders and Campbell.
Now if anyone says they prefer Payton and Brown or OJ and Brown I'm not counter pointing it.
These debates can go on and on and the truth of that matter is nobody is losing much when your talking Sanders, Campbell, Brown, Dickerson or OJ
Bronco Nagurski deserves some love as well, that guy could have played today without all the training and nutrition, he was a man amongst boys and he doesn't get mentioned enough
Quitter may be a bit strong, but Sanders was under contract and playing games about retirement, the Lions coach tried repeatedly to talk to Barry about his intentions and Sanders wouldn't speak to him. It was a very poor way to "retire".
I don't think Walter had to pay back salary to the Bears when he retired.
It's really not a big deal in comparing them, but had Sanders honored his contract, he probably surpasses Peyton.
Payton played his entire career on astroturf. Soldier Field didn't get grass until 1988:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soldier_Field#:~:text=The playing surface was AstroTurf,designated a National Historic Landmark.
This has been a fantastic discussion.
🏈🏈🏈
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Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
daltex
Well, to be honest, even a broken clock gets it right twice a day. 😉
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Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
daltex
If I am understanding you correctly, you believe that any player who retired before their contract expired retired in a "poor" way?
Does that mean John Elway retired in a poor way because he retired with a year left on his contract?
I think it is more respectful to retire if your heart/body is not in it early than to just play out the string and earn that paycheck but not be invested in the team.
The Royals wanted George brett to come back for one more season in 1994 and he ended up refusing because he said he would have been doing it only for the money, his heart wasnt in it anymore. He said he respected the game too much to do that.
I really only have a problem when an athlete pulls a simone biles or antonio brown and leaves during a season or event. that is what i consider quitting.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I agree. this is what i love best about the sports forum!!
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
That hurts my feelings.😢
This will make you feel better.
You went to the SB in 76/77 and you not only beat us but held Franco to 2 ypc.
Look at Bleier and Foreman and some pathetic QB play by Bradshaw and Lee.
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Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
daltex
It's a coin toss for me. Both were great. It seems that when discussing the greatest ever the discussion is usually between Sanders and Brown. Still it is difficult to pick one over the other.
http://www.unisquare.com/store/brick/
Ralph
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No. You have missed my point completely. But, I'll address a couple of your examples.
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No. He was 38 years old, not 30 and he was communicating with management and let them know ahead of time.
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Sanders was not "playing out the string", he was one year removed from perhaps his best season. He then tried to keep his entire signing bonus, that was wrong.
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That's not why Barry quit. Brett was 40, not 30. Don't understand why you even brought Brett up, the guy was ancient.
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Not familiar with these two guys and not going to look them up.
I said right from the beginning that it was hard to blame Barry too much for quitting. The Lions had been a disaster for years and were letting good players leave.
However, Sanders went about it in a poor way by refusing to respond to repeated inquiries from the head coach, who had given Barry a deadline of June 1st do let the club know about his retirement. When that passed, the organization took his lack of response as an indication he would play.
“I had called Barry perhaps 10 times,” Ross said at a July 28 news conference. “I wrote him three or four personal handwritten, as many as five to nine pages in length, explaining our situation and this type of thing. As recently as 10 days … I wrote another handwritten note with the idea to give him an update on where we were and where I thought our football team was and where our organization was.”
All Ross got in return was crickets.
Barry then retired just before training camp. He also tried to keep his entire signing bonus.
"An arbitrator ruled Sanders had to repay more than $5.5 million and forgo another $1.75 million of the $11-million signing bonus he received."
Peyton, on the other hand;
"At the end of the 1986 season, he announced that he would retire from professional football after completing the 1987 NFL season."
See the difference?
I still don't think it's that big a deal.
Now I'll ask you how you feel about another quitter.
RANDY MOSS.
He was great his first few years, but everyone knew here in Minnesota Randy was a huge problem waiting to happen. Cris Carter (who overcame his attitude problems) was assigned to try to keep Moss "under control", but after Carter left, Moss quit trying to catch balls thrown to him over the middle, actually walked off the field before the end of a game and told the media; "I only play when I want to play". Moss was great when he could outrun a DB he had a 6 inch height advantage on, but if he got hit hard even once early in a game he often disappeared.
The Vikings did everything they could to kiss his a$$, including implementing the "Randy ratio" trying to get him the ball more. Moss wasn't interested, and the Vikings eventually gave him to Oakland for next to nothing. He responded by giving little or no effort for Oakland, and they got rid of him.
He finally played for a coach who wasn't going to put up with his garbage and he has three great years, although he was a non factor in big games.
Randy Moss, had he given anywhere near 100%, he would have been the greatest receiver of all time. Most overrated player ever.
You missed the point completely.
No one said Barry couldn't have scored from short yardage, they said he wasn't asked to.
Peyton is going to lose on his yards per carry, because you can't gain many yards on goal line rushes.
My mistake.
Still a harder stadium to play in than the Silverdome because of the weather.
So conversely, Paytons TD total is inflated because he was allowed to vulture TD's from the goal line that a lesser RB could score or could be scored on a QB sneak.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
That DOES help a bit.
Vikings had some TREMENDOUS defensive teams. Never had enough on offense to get to the level of the Steelers.
Put Franco, Swann and Stallworth in there with Francis and it would have spelled absolute doom for the rest of the NFL.
Foreman did have about 3 great years.
I think we will have to agree to disagree about Sanders Being a "quitter" or having "retired in a bad way"
to me, quitting means sitting out or not giving it your all on plays (Moss), leaving your team in the middle of a game (antonio brown) or event (simone biles) Barry waited until the offseason. He was/is a very private person. we are basically hearing the lions version of events. for years they refused to put a team around Barry. I think Sanders probably realized what his workload was doing to his body and after not hearing what he wanted from the team about personnel moves, he decided to retire.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
TD totals were not brought into the comparison by me.
But if they had been, yes Payton was given more opportunities to score TDs.
Except in the SB.😢
@JoeBanzai That's not why Barry quit. Brett was 40, not 30. Don't understand why you even brought Brett up, the guy was ancient.
keep in mind, Barry was a 30 year old RB who had averaged 306 carries for 10 years. NFL RB has an average shelf life of 2.57 seasons. I would imagine Barrys 30 year old body had seen much more wear and tear than Bretts 40 year old body did playing baseball.
while he was still playing well, only Barry knows how much he had left in the tank
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
we can absolutely agree that it was a travesty that the fridge was given that chance and not sweetness. I bet even Ditka regrets that.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.