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Copper coin designations

seatedlib3991seatedlib3991 Posts: 835 ✭✭✭✭✭

I have spent a futile morning trying to find out if and how long PCGS and NGC stand behind the color designations they make for Proof Indian cents. Anyone familiar with this information: your feedback is appreciated. James

Comments

  • robecrobec Posts: 6,773 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don’t think PCGS has a guarantee any longer.

    From PCGS
    “Coins exhibiting environmental deterioration. The PCGS Guarantee does not apply to coins exhibiting environmental deterioration subsequent to PCGS grading and encapsulation. This deterioration may include, but is not limited to, spotting, hazing, PVC contamination, changes in color, and corrosion.

    IMPORTANT: Because the color and surfaces of copper coins can change due to environmental factors, including weather and improper storage, PCGS does not guarantee against changes in the color of copper coins, or against copper spotting subsequent to grading and encapsulation by PCGS.”

  • seatedlib3991seatedlib3991 Posts: 835 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks for the information. james

  • TurtleCatTurtleCat Posts: 4,619 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yeah, I don’t think any of them have any meaningful guarantee of copper color. Too many things can happen after being slabbed to guarantee it stays unchanged.

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,240 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2023 12:46PM

    It's one more reason to stay away from red copper. On older coins, it's dangerous move to buy it. I would take a brown coin over a red one if it's over 100 years old and you are expected to pay a big premium.

    I have never had any problems with Brown copper going bad on me, and I live in Florida. I had a graded Red 1853 cent turn on me years ago. My response was and is NEVER AGAIN!

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • RayboRaybo Posts: 5,330 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BillJones said:
    It's one more reason to stay away from red copper. On older coins, it's dangerous move to buy it. I would take a brown coin over a red one if it's over 100 years old and you are expected to pay a big premium.

    I have never had any problems with Brown copper going bad on me, and I live in Florida. I had a graded Red 1853 cent turn on me years ago. My response was and is NEVER AGAIN!

    This /\

    Brown copper is the best.

  • alaura22alaura22 Posts: 3,283 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TurtleCat said:
    Yeah, I don’t think any of them have any meaningful guarantee of copper color. Too many things can happen after being slabbed to guarantee it stays unchanged.

    How about CAC? Do they have a color guarantee?

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 35,103 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @alaura22 said:

    @TurtleCat said:
    Yeah, I don’t think any of them have any meaningful guarantee of copper color. Too many things can happen after being slabbed to guarantee it stays unchanged.

    How about CAC? Do they have a color guarantee?

    I doubt it. It's not the TPGS who is causing the copper to change. Any red guarantee would cost the TPGS a fortune over time.

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,358 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If you want to have an old copper coin that has the RD designation on the slab label, find one that is still red in an old slab which means that the color is reasonably stable from the time it was slabbed and then store it in an Intercept Shield slab holder.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 34,240 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2023 3:11AM

    @PerryHall said:
    If you want to have an old copper coin that has the RD designation on the slab label, find one that is still red in an old slab which means that the color is reasonably stable from the time it was slabbed and then store it in an Intercept Shield slab holder.

    Look for one in a slab that is at least ten years old. Even then, it’s easy to screw it up if it’s not stored perfectly.

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • seatedlib3991seatedlib3991 Posts: 835 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Does anyone have an opinion as to whether it is better to go with attractive coins that are already slabbed as Brown, or go for Red And Brown coins that are more than three quarters red? I would think the latter would buy you room for the coin to degrade but remain in the group classified.

  • coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 11,516 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2023 8:30AM

    @seatedlib3991 said:
    Does anyone have an opinion as to whether it is better to go with attractive coins that are already slabbed as Brown, or go for Red And Brown coins that are more than three quarters red? I would think the latter would buy you room for the coin to degrade but remain in the group classified.

    For myself it depends on what I'm buying, Lincoln cents I like in full red and the occasional red brown most of the time. That is not to say I don't like a nice brown Lincoln, I do and have several, but I prefer red or red brown. But for IHC's and early copper it is brown all the way, for some reason I find most of the red brown IHC's to be rather unattractive, and full red is just way out of my financial reach.

    I will also second the thought to purchase red copper in an older holder when you can, those have been stored well by previous collectors and if you store them correctly, they have a better than not chance of staying red.

    My Lincoln Registry
    My Collection of Old Holders

    Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
  • seatedlib3991seatedlib3991 Posts: 835 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks for the information. I am not quite sure (unless you are talking about sm white anac holders or rattlers ) how you know a holder is old. I will have to investigate that. james

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,358 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @seatedlib3991 said:
    Thanks for the information. I am not quite sure (unless you are talking about sm white anac holders or rattlers ) how you know a holder is old. I will have to investigate that. james

    For PCGS slabs, go to PCGS Coin Facts. They show pics of their various generations of slab designs in their "Museum of Coin Holders" including the dates they were used.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • seatedlib3991seatedlib3991 Posts: 835 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks, I didn't know about that. James

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