Examples of coins where an old design can still be seen?
350gn
Posts: 24 ✭
Are there any known examples of US coins where the design was completely changed, but when they repurposed a die or hub they didn't manage to fully remove the old design and a ghost of the old design can be seen?
How could you be sure a coin was an overstrike and not what I've described in the case where its very well struck?
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Not really what you described, but close. The stars on the reverse were from an unfinished die of another type. No attempt was made to remove the stars, but they are partially obscured by the new dentils.
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On an overstrike or double strike, the details will be flattened.
In the scenario you describe, any remaining details would be raised on the coin.
right but in the ghost I'm describing they intended to remove the design, but didn't fully remove it, so those design parts are very low in relief, so its very hard to tell.
Some 1910 Lincoln cents still show a trace of the VDB that the mint removed to salvage the reverse die from the prior year.
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But flattened details from a previous strike are flattened, and remnants of a design left on a die are raised. The two will not look the same.
Here is flattened:
A poster above showed a coin with a different design element left on the die.
It's not the same effect.
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These did not involve a complete design change, but in 1878 the Mint took a number of 8 Tail Feather reverse dies, ground them down and hubbed a new 7 Tail Feather design over the remnants of the 8TF design.
Do we know they ground them down rather than just finished a partially hubbed 8TF die with a 7TF hub? It took many impressions with the hub to fully bring up the design.
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I have a book - America's Silver Dollars
It has stuff from Coinage of the Americas Conf. at the American Numismatic Society, NY Oct 30, 1993
One section is - The Development of the 1878 Morgan silver dollar, A. George Mallis
The first about 9 pages has information on the background, initial work, initial design and changes for the 8tf. Then a section titled "Efforts of Ingenuity (7/8 TF)".
So it has discussed the change to the 7tf and new hub. Then notes this reply by Morgan to Pollock on March 25.
"I beg to say that the new hub for the reverse of silver dollar was finished and hardened today (March 25th). New dies from this hub will be ready about 2nd of April but I can enter the hub into the dies - fifty in number made from the old hub and have these ready this week"
The book has a paragraph and identifies the above as the reason for the 7/8 tf. Then it has a letter from Morgan to Linderman on March 26 indicating that the above had been done and thus creating the 7/8 tf (the why and how).
"Today I have made and finished dies fro the new hub for reverse of silver dollar with reference to which I reported to you yesterday. These dies are now being used in the coining room by Mr. Downing - who is most competent to judge of these things - prefers to use them for a few days before he gives an opinion as to how the dies will work."
The book then has a discussion on this.
The book states the new 7tf was entered into the old 8tf. Then quoting:
"Presumably, since the two reverses had border lettering that differed in position with respect to the eagle, the old die lettering, including the wreath, was ground and lapped away round the edge. When the new hub was entered into the old dies, only the center part of the design had a doubled appearance. Dies actually begin as cones to prevent metal from spreading, cracking and chipping during each blow from the hub. Thus in order to finish the die in one or two blows from the hub, only the outer edge of the die could be ground away. Since about 50 reverse dies were modified, it is likely that on some of these dies the old design was probably completely removed and the eight tail feathers did not show beneath the seven tail feathers. Only 13 different dual hub B/A reverse die varieties are known. The other 37 A reverse dies may have been ground down sufficiently so that little of the original design remained. In addition, some of these B/A reverse dies may have been condemned at the Philadelphia mint and never used."
The book then discusses a similar thing with the obverse and new lower relief impressed on old higher relief and some doubling of stars, LIBERTY, symbol letters and design details. Then more discussion about still not stratified and a few more changes and quoting of letters.
The book mentions the there was some public concern if the new design was genuine and also:
"...pointing out the design differences and that they did not stack up to the same height."
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Love the 7/8 and 8 tail feather discussion, but I also love that as Wayne Miller pointed out, no self respecting ornithologist would approve of an eagle with less than 10-12 tail feathers. Even more interesting to me is that to this day folks still claim the change was made because 7 was the correct number.