Safe deposit box not safe - Gov't asset forfeiture

Tramp

Are you safe? Does insurance protect your collection in an asset forfeiture?

https://www.foxnews.com/media/fbi-sued-allegedly-losing-hundreds-thousands-rare-coins-during-raid

IkesT

FYI, this was reported on another thread:

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1095898/are-the-feds-out-of-control#latest

logger7

By the time the government comes knocking or seizes something, there are usually many warning bells that have been ignored.

johnny9434

@logger7 said:
By the time the government comes knocking or seizes something, there are usually many warning bells that have been ignored.

This

Vasanti

There is ALOT more to that story which is, of course not being told because the purveyors want to spin it for clicks. That private safe deposit box outfit was a gigantic machine to launder drug money, and the owners have admitted that it was indeed that: “ The company admitted that it recruited drug traffickers as customers and used the illicit proceeds to run the business. It also acknowledged that people at the company sold cocaine, arranged drug deals at the store and instructed customers how to structure cash transactions to dodge currency reporting requirements.”

Unfortunately, some innocent people got caught up in that dragnet. The FBI has returned tens of millions of dollars in cash and valuables to people who weren’t engaged in criminal activity. It sucks, but the people to blame here are the owners of the private safe deposit box company.

https://latimes.com/california/story/2022-03-03/beverly-hills-store-admits-to-using-safe-deposit-boxes-to-launder-drug-money

Tramp

@IkesT said:
FYI, this was reported on another thread:

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1095898/are-the-feds-out-of-control#latest

Yes, but not my question

WillieBoyd2

I believe that the answer is "no".

Vasanti

Protip: Don’t store your valuables at a safe deposit box location that is located in a seedy strip mall next to a nail salon that isn’t affiliated with any bank that you’ve ever heard of.

Pnies20

I don’t think there’s anyway insurance would cover your collection in the event it is seized by the gov’t

Vasanti

@Pnies20 said:
I don’t think there’s anyway insurance would cover your collection in the event it is seized by the gov’t

Here’s the problem:

Scenario 1
1. FBI seizes person A’s stuff from a criminal money laundering enterprise.
2. FBI investigation reveals that person A is not involved in money laundering.
3. FBI asks person A what they had so that they are returning items to the proper person and proof of ownership of said items.
4. Person A provides evidence or ownership and is able to prove the items are theirs.
5. FBI returns items (which has happened multiple times in this case).

Scenario 2
1. FBI seizes person B’s stuff from a criminal money laundering enterprise.
2. FBI investigation reveals that person B is not involved in money laundering.
3. FBI asks person B what they had so that they are returning items to the proper person and proof of ownership of said items.
4. Person B cannot provide ownership proof. Person B also claims that certain items should be in the FBI’s possession, but the FBI says they were not in the box.
5. FBI cannot return items to a person that it isn’t clear that they own, particularly if the person rented the box anonymously. The FBI also isn’t just going to take the person’s word for it that there was something super valuable there. After all, the safe deposit place was run by drug dealers and money launderers. It’s much more likely they stole Person B’a stuff than the FBI (if it ever existed at all).

In Scenario 2, insurance is probably also going to tell you to get lost for the stuff that the FBI won’t return because you can’t prove it’s yours. After all, that means you can’t prove it to the insurance company, either. If the items are missing and you can prove they were there, then you would probably have better luck claiming that the dirtbag drug dealers and money launderers that owned the business stole it from you.

PhillyJoe

If your house or car was seized by the government, that would not be a casualty covered by your auto or homeowner’s insurance.

Vasanti

@PhillyJoe said:
If your house or car was seized by the government, that would not be a casualty covered by your auto or homeowner’s insurance.

Let’s make the analogy fit the facts. You drove your car downtown. For whatever reason, you hate name brand parking garages, so you parked your car at a parking garage in a strip mall run by a guy named Carlos. It turns out Carlos’ strip mall parking service is a cover for a vehicle fencing operation. While you are getting your business done downtown, the FBI raids Carlos and takes all the cars as evidence because they don’t know which cars are stolen and which are legit parking jobs. You go to the FBI and ask for your car back, but the FBI has no idea what you’re talking about. Your car isn’t in their inventory.

Should US taxpayer dollars be used to pay for your car? (I think, no, unless you can prove it was in the FBIs possession).

Will your insurance cover the loss? (I think, yes, because you are innocent of car fencing and you had proof you dropped your car off with Carlos and now it’s gone.)

Now, what happens if you can’t prove you dropped off your car with Carlos (similar to being unable to prove what was in your safe deposit box). Would anyone pay? Likely not.

PeakRarities

@Vasanti said:

@Pnies20 said:
I don’t think there’s anyway insurance would cover your collection in the event it is seized by the gov’t

Here’s the problem:

Scenario 1
1. FBI seizes person A’s stuff from a criminal money laundering enterprise.
2. FBI investigation reveals that person A is not involved in money laundering.
3. FBI asks person A what they had so that they are returning items to the proper person and proof of ownership of said items.
4. Person A provides evidence or ownership and is able to prove the items are theirs.
5. FBI returns items (which has happened multiple times in this case).

Scenario 2
1. FBI seizes person B’s stuff from a criminal money laundering enterprise.
2. FBI investigation reveals that person B is not involved in money laundering.
3. FBI asks person B what they had so that they are returning items to the proper person and proof of ownership of said items.
4. Person B cannot provide ownership proof. Person B also claims that certain items should be in the FBI’s possession, but the FBI says they were not in the box.
5. FBI cannot return items to a person that it isn’t clear that they own, particularly if the person rented the box anonymously. The FBI also isn’t just going to take the person’s word for it that there was something super valuable there After all, the safe deposit place was run by drug dealers and money launderers. It’s much more likely they stole Person B’a stuff than the FBI (if it ever existed at all).

In Scenario 2, insurance is probably also going to tell you to get lost for the stuff that the FBI won’t return because you can’t prove it’s yours. After all, that means you can’t prove it to the insurance company, either. If the items are missing and you can prove they were there, then you would probably have better luck claiming that the dirtbag drug dealers and money launderers that owned the business stole it from you.

Im not challenging your point, but imo the FBI shouldn't have to "take someones word" for what was in the box, they should have carefully documented the contents of each box when they emptied them out to begin with. My "proof" is that they were in my box. Alternatively, what if they were family heirlooms, jewels, or coins handed down generations, am I expected to procure the original receipt from 1938 or would a simple picture of the item suffice?

IF someone even had a private insurance policy on the coins or valuables were itemized in some fashion, I would consider that to be enough proof. Although with my policy through HW, you only have to itemize each item over 10k.

Pnies20

I agree. Insurance companies are not going to cover that.

Another thing to consider is is the level of proof for forfeiture is different and you don’t need to convicted of a crime. The level of proof is only a preponderance of the evidence. It’s a separate process.

dollarfan

@DeplorableDan said:

@Vasanti said:

@Pnies20 said:
I don’t think there’s anyway insurance would cover your collection in the event it is seized by the gov’t

Here’s the problem:

Scenario 1
1. FBI seizes person A’s stuff from a criminal money laundering enterprise.
2. FBI investigation reveals that person A is not involved in money laundering.
3. FBI asks person A what they had so that they are returning items to the proper person and proof of ownership of said items.
4. Person A provides evidence or ownership and is able to prove the items are theirs.
5. FBI returns items (which has happened multiple times in this case).

Scenario 2
1. FBI seizes person B’s stuff from a criminal money laundering enterprise.
2. FBI investigation reveals that person B is not involved in money laundering.
3. FBI asks person B what they had so that they are returning items to the proper person and proof of ownership of said items.
4. Person B cannot provide ownership proof. Person B also claims that certain items should be in the FBI’s possession, but the FBI says they were not in the box.
5. FBI cannot return items to a person that it isn’t clear that they own, particularly if the person rented the box anonymously. The FBI also isn’t just going to take the person’s word for it that there was something super valuable there After all, the safe deposit place was run by drug dealers and money launderers. It’s much more likely they stole Person B’a stuff than the FBI (if it ever existed at all).

In Scenario 2, insurance is probably also going to tell you to get lost for the stuff that the FBI won’t return because you can’t prove it’s yours. After all, that means you can’t prove it to the insurance company, either. If the items are missing and you can prove they were there, then you would probably have better luck claiming that the dirtbag drug dealers and money launderers that owned the business stole it from you.

Im not challenging your point, but imo the FBI shouldn't have to "take someones word" for what was in the box, they should have carefully documented the contents of each box when they emptied them out to begin with. My "proof" is that they were in my box. Alternatively, what if they were family heirlooms, jewels, or coins handed down generations, am I expected to procure the original receipt from 1938 or would a simple picture of the item suffice?

IF someone even had a private insurance policy on the coins or valuables were itemized in some fashion, I would consider that to be enough proof. Although with my policy through HW, you only have to itemize each item over 10k.

The whole procedure of opening EACH BOX should have been video taped. Fbi was running dirty if it wasn't. It would be to cover their asses.

privatecoin

Pvc pipe under dirt are the safest.

WillieBoyd2

Until a guy with a metal detector comes along.

Jacques_Loungecoque

@logger7 said:
By the time the government comes knocking or seizes something, there are usually many warning bells that have been ignored.

You’re not wrong in general, but there are many exceptions as of late. Guys driving across the country with intent on buying a car/truck and paying in cash or bartering with gold have been AF’ed. These are dudes with verifiable documentation and sellers who can verify their intent.

Also, how many grannies have their stuff in a box that gets swept up because the local thugs have also been using that one facility. These are the same grannies that get internet scammed and preyed upon by rip-off artist contractors. Just saying, sometimes folks find out the hard way and NEVER see this coming.

ccmorgan

Have charges been filed?

logger7

Asset seizure laws used to be worse; false suspicion on those crossing state lines, getting stopped who consent to a vehicle search whether or not there is probable cause. The 4th Amendment is the law of the land but as usual unless you know and advocate for your rights they can evaporate.

YQQ

did this actually happen in America? ( meaning the USA)??

BryceM

Having spent last week visiting Independence Hall and musing upon the lives and actions of the Founding Fathers, the entire concept of asset forfeiture reeks of the sort of thing that caused them to rise up and commit treason against the crown. I have no problem with the rule of law and enforcement, but allowing agencies to keep what they find creates an overwhelming bias against both the guilty and the innocent. Private ownership of property is one of our inviolable Liberties and Rights.

ccmorgan

@BryceM said:
Having spent last week visiting Independence Hall and musing upon the lives and actions of the Founding Fathers, the entire concept of asset forfeiture reeks of the sort of thing that caused them to rise up and commit treason against the crown. I have no problem with the rule of law and enforcement, but allowing agencies to keep what they find creates an overwhelming bias against both the guilty and the innocent. Private ownership of property is used to be one of our inviolable Liberties and Rights.

Fixed it for you. No need to thank me.