Elizondo’s Collection

Boosibri

Does anyone know when and where Elizondo sold his collection?

ELuis

Not sure if this is the same person, you might found this topic already:
https://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=375927

And if it is, a member wrote on that topic:

My father is Carlos A. Elizondo, Jr. who wrote Eight Reales and Pesos of the New World in the late 60s/early 70s.

HTH

Boosibri

@ELuis said:
Not sure if this is the same person, you might found this topic already:
https://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=375927

And if it is, a member wrote on that topic:

My father is Carlos A. Elizondo, Jr. who wrote Eight Reales and Pesos of the New World in the late 60s/early 70s.

HTH

Thanks!

JohnnyCache

I don't know if the above link will or won't help Boosibri, but it is a great read, in and of itself, that should not be missed.

ELuis

^ indeed, maybe if it is to try to contact the person via PM there, do not know.

realeswatcher

@JohnnyCache said:
I don't know if the above link will or won't help Boosibri, but it is a great read, in and of itself, that should not be missed.

https://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=375927

I still don't know what to make of that "1772" piece.............

ABSOLUTELY see why Elizondo father and son kept it on the side.

Also, my Dad looks a lot like Hector Elizondo the actor. So. Ital. vs. Spanish-phenotype PR... understandable.

maetx

Boosibri, thanks for your original post. As ELuis has referenced, I originally posted to the Coin Community forum a few years ago asking about the 1772 coin. realeswatcher, I too don't know what to make of that piece still, but I do think there's a deeper story to uncover. I want to believe there's a reason why my grandfather held onto it. I hope to do further research around the general practices and timeline of the Potosi mint, or anything else I can find, to help shed some light on why it may exist. It may still end up being a fake, but interesting regardless.

In speaking with my father originally, but also asking him again this past weekend, the bulk of their Latin American collection was sold to a number of private collectors between 1970 and 1972. My grandfather was a man of many business interests. So, as he had done before, he took the money and moved onto his next chapter in life. My father remained in Texas to finish his education to become an engineer and eventually had a family.

Both of them had done business with a number of individuals over those years and throughout the world. Right around the time of my original post on the other forum, my brothers and I sat down with my father to hear countless fascinating stories related to their coin collecting. I wish I would have recorded that conversation. In the end, we got access to some old documents, letters, books, etc that we donated to the Benson Latin American Collection at The University of Texas at Austin.

I have a couple letters that show Norman Stack corresponding with my father about his books, but also the sale of some of his coins to the Stack's auction house. There are a number of other letters from coin dealers and collectors that help paint a picture of coin collecting during that era. In addition, my grandfather partnered with Al Almanzar in San Antonio and my father also worked with him in his business there. Almanzar eventually published both my father's books. Some of the sale of their collection to those private collectors likely went through that channel.

My father recalls a few specific transactions. No name was given but he said some coins were sold to a race car driver from the Boston area. More to a Stanford professor by the name of R.N. Stuart. Then three prominent Mexico City coins to a Brownsville businessman by the name of Pat L. Pace.

I hope some of this information helps. If anyone has more specific questions, I would be happy to ask my father and post his answers back here.

pruebas

@maetx said:
I too don't know what to make of that piece still, but I do think there's a deeper story to uncover. I want to believe there's a reason why my grandfather held onto it.

With all due respect, usually the simplest answer is the correct answer.

The buyers (or auctioneers) of his collection didn’t want the coin because it was clearly a fake, but your grandfather had that nagging doubt that it could be real and it would make him good money if it were. And he WANTED it to be real. So he just put it aside for later. And later is now.

At some point, someone will have to accept reality that it’s counterfeit and move on.

I’ve seen the same thing with the 1730-Mo pillar dollars and every time one appears, some folks get all in a tizzy about it.

Boosibri

@maetx said:
Boosibri, thanks for your original post. As ELuis has referenced, I originally posted to the Coin Community forum a few years ago asking about the 1772 coin. realeswatcher, I too don't know what to make of that piece still, but I do think there's a deeper story to uncover. I want to believe there's a reason why my grandfather held onto it. I hope to do further research around the general practices and timeline of the Potosi mint, or anything else I can find, to help shed some light on why it may exist. It may still end up being a fake, but interesting regardless.

In speaking with my father originally, but also asking him again this past weekend, the bulk of their Latin American collection was sold to a number of private collectors between 1970 and 1972. My grandfather was a man of many business interests. So, as he had done before, he took the money and moved onto his next chapter in life. My father remained in Texas to finish his education to become an engineer and eventually had a family.

Both of them had done business with a number of individuals over those years and throughout the world. Right around the time of my original post on the other forum, my brothers and I sat down with my father to hear countless fascinating stories related to their coin collecting. I wish I would have recorded that conversation. In the end, we got access to some old documents, letters, books, etc that we donated to the Benson Latin American Collection at The University of Texas at Austin.

I have a couple letters that show Norman Stack corresponding with my father about his books, but also the sale of some of his coins to the Stack's auction house. There are a number of other letters from coin dealers and collectors that help paint a picture of coin collecting during that era. In addition, my grandfather partnered with Al Almanzar in San Antonio and my father also worked with him in his business there. Almanzar eventually published both my father's books. Some of the sale of their collection to those private collectors likely went through that channel.

My father recalls a few specific transactions. No name was given but he said some coins were sold to a race car driver from the Boston area. More to a Stanford professor by the name of R.N. Stuart. Then three prominent Mexico City coins to a Brownsville businessman by the name of Pat L. Pace.

I hope some of this information helps. If anyone has more specific questions, I would be happy to ask my father and post his answers back here.

What an great post and thank you so much for taking the time to send it. Your families collection was outstanding and one of my areas of interest is to trace the provenance history of coins back through previously notable collections.

The use of the asterisks in the book in noting which coins were in the collection is extremely helpful and interesting that that pursuit. A few questions along those lines…

In the introduction to the book your father notes five collections which many of the families collection was sourced from:
1. Guatemalan and Central American from Jorge Skinner-Klee
2. Pedro Benton Mojica (presumably Lima materials)
3. Roberto Riva coins from Lima
4. Jose Toribio Medina
5. Clyde Hubbard Guatemalan coins

Is there are reference for which coins came from which collection with a specifc interest in the Guatemalan coins which came from Hubbard vs. Skinner-Klee and which were from Don Jose Toribio Medina?

I own the 1764- Guatemala plated in the second edition of the book shown below. The date is plated with an asterisks so I would assume that the coin in the collection was used for the image. It is also plated in the Calbeto de Grau Compendium de coho reales published just a year previously. I am curious if your father recalls the coin and if he recalls which collection it came from.

Likely a much harder question after 50 years… In the book a 1768 Santiago Pillar is plated and not noted as a part of the collection. I also own that coin as was wondering if your father recalls the source for the image used in the book.

Thank you so much again for posting and for your continued engagement on your families work.
Brian

maetx

@pruebas said:

@maetx said:
I too don't know what to make of that piece still, but I do think there's a deeper story to uncover. I want to believe there's a reason why my grandfather held onto it.

With all due respect, usually the simplest answer is the correct answer.

The buyers (or auctioneers) of his collection didn’t want the coin because it was clearly a fake, but your grandfather had that nagging doubt that it could be real and it would make him good money if it were. And he WANTED it to be real. So he just put it aside for later. And later is now.

At some point, someone will have to accept reality that it’s counterfeit and move on.

I’ve seen the same thing with the 1730-Mo pillar dollars and every time one appears, some folks get all in a tizzy about it.

I'm completely content if it's a fake. It wouldn't upset me at all as I'm not a coin collector. I'm simply interested in the history, including that of my father and grandfather who were both significant figures in this business. Which gets us back to the original question and why I registered on this site, to provide some answers.

pruebas

@maetx said:

I'm completely content if it's a fake.

That’s all well and good. But from what I’ve read so far (mostly on the other site), your family hasn’t ACCEPTED that it’s a fake after numerous intelligent people have condemned it. You’re still saying “if it’s a fake.”

I guess keeping the hope alive makes for a lot of fun speculation.

Boosibri

@pruebas said:

@maetx said:

I'm completely content if it's a fake.

That’s all well and good. But from what I’ve read so far (mostly on the other site), your family hasn’t ACCEPTED that it’s a fake after numerous intelligent people have condemned it. You’re still saying “if it’s a fake.”

I guess keeping the hope alive makes for a lot of fun speculation.

Point made.

And not sure what’s funny about my post. It’s a long shot anyone would recall or remember that far back about these coins but Im curious.

maetx

@Boosibri You're very welcome. Thank you for your interest. I'll definitely speak to my father in the coming days and see what answers he can provide. We might be surprised what he does remember.

It's interesting that you note the asterisks in the book being helpful. One of the letters to my father during that period from another collector noted the opposite:

"Criticism: Your book is immensely important and much more so than your collection which tends to give small or young collectors an inferiority complex. On a future edition please leave out page xiii and the asterisks."

It's interesting to hear all sides.

Regarding some of the names you mentioned, I recall many stories from my father about his interactions with those individuals. He mentioned to me that the partial Medina collection that he and my grandfather purchase in 1967 was a considerable transaction, so much that Amon Carter Jr. helped finance it for them.

There is also a letter that I have from a dealer to my father mentioning that Gabriel Calbeto was interested in purchasing a coin from him, though I don't know which one. Everything I have seen shows how often many of these coins changed hands.

In any case, let me see what answers I can get for you.

Abuelo

I never knew a collector concerned with giving other one an inferiority complex 😉
Interesting story unfolding here.

maetx

@Boosibri I spoke with my father again and I'll first note that he was involved in so many transactions, and as you suspected, it's very hard to keep everything straight after all these years. Not only was it buying and selling through auctions or dealers, but directly from private collectors who had acquired these coins in various places in their respective country/region. And in many cases the trading of duplicate coins for other coins of interest.

With that said, there is no reference for which coins came from who. In going through his materials a few years back I don't recall seeing any documentation of that kind. Again, much of it is just memories. Some clearer than others, but all filled with a cast of characters from various backgrounds.

Unfortunately, he doesn't remember exactly where the 1764 Guatemala came from. He did remember that Hubbard was very much obsessed with acquiring Mexican coins and recalls trading a rare coin from Oaxaca to him for various others, possibly some of the Guatemalan.

As for the 1768 Santiago Pillar, he believes he obtained the photo from a Chilean collector with a German name starting with a S. He gave me one name, but wasn't sure, so I don't want to put it out here.

Not the information you were hoping for, but again, many years have passed. However, he did express that if you ever wanted to speak with him directly he would be willing to do so. If interested, send me a private message and I can share his contact info.

tcollects

what a cool thread, a longshot leads to the primary source