Did the toning carry this coin 3 grade points?
ChrisH821
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At the risk of starting a controversial conversation I wanted to know what others think. Particularly those interested and versed in the series of proof coins from 1936 to 42.
I was looking at 1940 WLHs on PCGS coin facts and came across this coin graded PR68+(CAC) with what appears to be a very obvious patch of hairlines in the right obverse field. From my experience this should be a limiting factor and grade PR65, maybe 6, but 68+? Maybe the way I grade proofs is wrong.
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Maybe I'm seeing this wrong and they aren't hairlines but they certainly look like it. The toning is very nice on this half, not really my taste but I can certainly see the appeal. Did that toning carry this coin to top pop? (6/0)
Interestingly, if we look at the other TV image for this coin the marks are not apparent, it also seems slightly out of focus but maybe that's the lighting difference.
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I am not sure what to think here.
Collector, occasional seller
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That’s not the type of toning that would be responsible for much (if any) grading bump. You need high end or monster color and I don’t see that on this Walker.
Maybe the hairline are on the slab. Some Truview get done in slab.
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It certainly appears as if there are obvious hairlines and if so, I think the grade should be limited to 66. Hopefully, in this case, looks are deceiving and the coin deserved the assigned grade.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
It seems like very few of the ultra high grade coins in 36-42 proofs have what I would consider really attractive toning. Most have what I would consider neutral, some I would call haze rather than toning.
Collector, occasional seller
I thought about this as well, but the lines are in focus and we can see the entire rim of the coin so it is not in a holder.
Collector, occasional seller
I may be alone on this, but I like that toning it almost looks like the northern lights!
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I think the same... PCGS and CAC both like the coin at 68, but at 68 there really should be no lighting angle at which hairlines can appear.
Collector, occasional seller
While the tone may not be multi-color which most equate with the term "monster" or "money" color, I do think it is exceptional in its own regard and the green isn't typically encountered. The marks in question look like hairlines on the coin to me, they are visible in the TV but aren't as prominent, most likely due to the lighting. The strike is nearly full with only the central devices showing unstruck planchet flaws. There are scattered flaws, particularly on the reverse along with what appears to be a lint strike-through to the left of Liberty.
PCGS graders are certainly more experienced with these than I am and they've had the coin in-hand, but I think 68+ is a bit generous.
All the same, I think it's a pretty coin that I'd like to own, I just wouldn't want to pay for it.
@ChrisH821 I assume that you have confirmed that the lines are not die polish lines?
@Maywood makes good points.
I also believe they are hairlines. With that said...
1) There is no way to know if they are striations. If this is true, then they are mint made and do not affect grade.
2) They could be very minor in hand and only pop at the right angles.
In my experience, PCGS allows significant hairlines up until PR67, and minor hairlines until 67+. A PR68 can be made if there are minor and perhaps one or two significant hairlines, and spectacular eye appeal (which this coin has). Therefore, I don't think a PR68 for this coin is out of the norm, even if they are hairlines.
PCGS loves the color on these types of coins, so a one to one and a half point bump on color is to be expected. If you choose a PCGS PR68+ at random, there's a good chance it has this color scheme. Therefore, can I say the grade is accurate? No. Can I say it's inaccurate? No.
What I do know is the coin has the PCGS guarantee behind it. As an aside, I recently saw a PCGS PR69DCAM 1964 Accented Hair Kennedy with worse hairlines than this.
Coin Photographer.
I suspect the color of the pictured coin, viewed in hand, is muted and looks nothing like the Trueview photo.
I have a 1940 PF67 half whose Trueview photo is not close to the appearance of the coin in hand. Here is the Trueview photo of same.
Glamour photos of coins are like glamour photos of models. They rarely reflect reality.
Starting with the end of your post and working backwards from there…
If the Kennedy half had more hairlines than the 1940 half, it was badly over-graded.
On a practical basis, what good is the PCGS guarantee for the coin being discussed?
I think it’s highly unlikely that we’re seeing mint-made striations or die polish lines - I’m confident that it’s hairlines.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Mark, the Kennedy was the coin I asked you about in PMs. I don't want to expose our private conversation unless you give me the ok. Regardless, the coin was badly overgraded to anyone who saw it.
In all reality, the guarantee is useless, but if one had some extreme grading skill they may be able to win an appeal.
I also think they are hairlines, which brings me back to my original point - I think this is a technical 67 or 67+ with a bump.
Coin Photographer.
Alex, I thought that the Kennedy half was probably the one we’d discussed privately. Please feel free to post anything I said about it. And I commend you for making a point of keeping our private messages private.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
But it stickered. All you need is some vague references about there being no marks with a neutron microscope, throw it in a Legend Auction, and voila they will come.
I would rather have a white, hairline free, PR-66 graded piece for a lot less money, which what I have.
Sounds good. As you said, the coin was hairline and was certainly several points overgraded. While it happens, there's not much to do about it except to avoid those particular coins.
In this case, I don't think the overgrading is as egregious. The color deserves a bump, and 68 is not outlandish IMO.
Coin Photographer.
Proofs should be and are held to a higher standard. Looks 66 to me. Still a high grade and a nice coin.
I see too many toned coins that trouble me. More and more on the Bourse all the time.
Maybe a way to move old unmovable coins by making them more attractive to the eye
And to folks not looking under and beyond the toning.
Gold is Money nothing else! ( J.P. Morgan)
Toning is damage nothing else ( Anonymous)
I'll take the 5th amendment.
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Yup, looks 66 to me too.
I wonder if it has a bean.
It does
Collector, occasional seller
This makes the most sense for me, Especially considering that the alternate TV does not show a trace of said hairlines. I doubt that both PCGS and CAC missed it when they agreed the coin is strong as a 68.
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I don't think this is true - there's no trace of the gasket in the TrueView.
I think there's a general misunderstanding of the PR68 grade here - that grade does not always imply that there will be no hairlines, particularly for larger size later date Proof coins.
Coin Photographer.