Question about "Forbidden" coins (1933 double eagle, etc).
CalifornianKing
Posts: 1,259 ✭✭✭✭
Would a "forbidden" coin become legal if it's no longer a coin? Like say someone takes one of the double eagles that are still hiding out in the wild, and hollows it out, and makes it like those magic coins, or incorporates it into a necklace, etc, would that make it legal? Setting aside the numismatically warcrime it would be...
Or since it's purportedly "mint property", it in any form is illegal?
Why can't some of the double eagles that exist in hiding exist legally outside the US? Such as PCGS Paris. They could be graded there, and be legal outside the US. It doesn't seem that hard to sneak it out. I've flown (domestically) with my coins before, and most TSA folks didn't care, and it usually didn't even come up for searches (other than the time I flew with 5k wheaties, they were super interested in the 45lb bag of stuff the "x-ray cannot see through"). Even if someone saw the double eagle, they'd almost certainly not know it's "illegal", and if they saw it, you can always say its a copy/fake. TSA agents aren't going to crack out a loupe and start looking for known dies or whatever.
Just my 2 cents.
Comments
It will always be a coin - cf Dan Carr's overstrikes.
Unfortunate. Was there a court ruling on this? DN's overstrikes still kept it as a coin. But if it is hollowed out and used as a pocket watch, it's not a coin.
It would then be an altered coin. And before you argue the semantics, you don't need to convince me or anyone here - you need to convince the Treasury Department. Good luck.
And, yes, they can be owned outside of the US. That's where the one legal example came from.
They can only be owned outside the US until the feds fund or and try to recover it. Remember, the Farouk coin was pulled from the Farouk sale to prevent it. It's not "legal " to own anywhere in the universe. It's just harder to recover it from Mars.
To the OP: since it's been labeled as stolen, it is illegal in any form.
It's technically not a coin now as it was never monetized.
I believe it's "legal", or not "illegal" to own in another country in regard to the other country's laws.
I'm not sure what legal mechanism would facilitate seizure of a coin in another country on behalf of the US government. There could be one, but I can't imagine it being used. It's done for artwork stolen during the holocaust but even those cases are quite a challenge.
In any case, if I had a 1933 DE anywhere in the world i wouldn't advertise it.
No comment.
I once was speaking to my local coin dealer and we were talking about the peace dollars and he had heard rumors from a fellow dealer (that he knew and trusted) that had he had once seen a 1964 Peace dollar, but when he brought it up recently that dealer pushed back and said he doesn’t remember that and if he ever had or saw a 1964 peace dollar he would tell no one.
Cue twilight zone music.
Illegal coins are like fight club and the number 1 of fight club is that no one talks about fight club.
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
Treasury regards 1933 double eagles as stolen property - thus they remain illegal, no matter what you might try to do to disguise them.
If somebody steals your car, and puts their own license plates on it and repaints it, does that make it no longer stolen? No. It's still "your stolen car", and thus "stolen property". The treatment given to it might make it harder for the authorities to find, but once found it would still be easy to prove in court.
The only way to launder a 1933 double eagle would be to render it back into the gold from whence it came - a lump of melted gold is a lot harder to prove that it was once stolen property than a dated coin or distinctive piece of jewellery. I think we'd all agree that would be a terrible shame. I suppose you could also smash it up around the date area, whack it with a hammer in that spot a couple of times so it no longer looked like a 1933 double eagle but looked like a generic undatable double eagle. I think we'd all agree that would be a terrible shame, too. This would of course all be illegal, "concealing evidence of crime" or some such, but once done it would be impossible to prove without eyewitness testimony.
As for other the legality of these coins in other jurisdictions, you have to get them there first. Most countries have laws preventing the import of stolen goods. And most countries would have some kind of reciprocal agreement with the US, to repatriate stolen goods once detected and proven.
The United States itself, of course, has laws preventing the export of stolen goods, especially stolen federal property. Stealing and smuggling a 1933 double eagle out of the country might be easier than stealing and smuggling out the Washington Monument, but Just because you could easily get away with it, doesn't mean it's not illegal any more.
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD.
Most countries would not allow the import or possession of stolen property. Friendly nations have agreements to respect the laws of other countries. There are very few nations without extradition treaties with the US.
Just because it might be difficult to reclaim doesn't change its legal status. Is a kidnapped child not kidnapped if I get them to Canada?
That is an absurd comparison. Not relevant to this discussion whatsoever.
It's an example of how a seemingly sincere question at the start of this thread can go completely off the rails.
The legal and jurisdictional hurdles involved in various nations' laws are precisely why people move themselves or their contraband to a country other than where the crime occurred. There is international cooperation on select issues but small crimes (i.e. a "stolen" gold coin minted 90 years ago) are generally not among them.
Hurdles to justice not a change in legal status.
It is an apt comparison if you're suggesting that a stolen coin is not stolen once it crosses the border. The fact that you find it absurd might give you pause to consider your position that a stolen coin in a foreign country is somehow not stolen. It's still stolen property and most countries have laws against possession of stolen property.
I'll never be convinced that the Langbord 10 are illegal since the government sent them ATS , then paraded them around ANA shows. Rubbish. Illegal ? WHO ? ( some rogue players inside our govt.)
Prove that it's stolen. The burden is on you. US federal government's claims are not necessarily automatically accepted in most other countries. Add the statute of limitations to the mix and it becomes an even less pressing matter. (Yes, I know that the statute of limitations doesn't erase the fact that an item is stolen).
In most countries you can get robbed or pickpocketted and local law enforcement will do nothing. (That dynamic is becoming increasingly common here, as well.)
By the way, the Elgin Marbles are on display in the British Museum if you want to see them.
“nauseous prostitution,”
https://info.mysticstamp.com/learn/what-are-farleys-follies/
Another perk of gov't job.
Work the angles.
It was the alleged "Faruk" coin, but I'm talking about them being able to be openly and legally opened abroad.
Makes sense
Makes sense. Wish we could fund a lobbyist group to legalize the illegal coins.
Makes sense. Sad but true.
100% agree
A kidnapped child is A okay if it's in Syria, but no one wants to be in Syria.
True. The burden of the proof is on them. You need to find a country with a shorter (but not a shitty country like Russia, like France, or Germany) statute of limitations. Move it there, then the clock restarts, then after that its perfectly legal.
@CalifornianKing You've been on the Forum long enough to understand that you should not make these kinds of comments.
I believe that coins like the 1933 $20 Gold can be considered national artifacts and the statue of limitations not apply.
As with anything, if the government truly wants it, they will get it. As with anything that is technically black market, just don't talk about it, don't post it on public forums and generally no one will say anything. The more press, the more likely the government(s) to get involved.
My current registry sets:
20th Century Type Set
Virtual DANSCO 7070
Slabbed IHC set - Missing the Anacs Slabbed coins
I don't see the hurt in talking about it. I'm not encouraging people to do anything illegal.
Have you read the PCGS Forum Rules and Guidelines?
(1) Posts must not contain inappropriate language in the form of cuss words, name-calling, sexual suggestion etc.
(2) Posts must not contain libelous (accusatory, attacking) remarks concerning any individual, company, or other entity.
The Treasury Dept. has a vendetta against the 1933 $20's that they will never let go. The Treasury Dept. LOST its case against the Langbords by failing to file necessary paperwork for the forfeiture of them by a lawfully mandated deadline. I suspect that the Langbord's attorney counted on them doing this in their arrogance, and after the deadline for Treasury action has passed, the attorney filed a motion for the return of the coins.
As I recall their motion was upheld, and they should have gotten the coins back. However, Treasury requested a do-over in front of a friendly judge, who granted them the do-over so that they could file the paperwork and keep the coins.
You could put a 1933 $20 in the Pope's Tiara and the Treasury Dept. would knock on the doors of St. Peter's Basilica and demand that it be surrendered.
MOO
TD
I think he's referring to your comments about S***** countries, not the coins themselves.
The statute of limitations applies to prosecution. I don't think the statute ever applies to the stolen goods. To wit: if you rob a bank and bury the money until the statute of limitation passes, you can't be prosecuted for the theft, but you also can't legally keep the money.
I'm sure a lawyer will come along and tell me if that is not correct...in which case I need to start digging.
I wonder if anybody has ever used the legal argument that since under the law that was in effect at the time, a US dollar was 23.22 grains of fine gold, and therefore the weight of gold in the double eagle was $20 in and of itself, independent of anyone's authority to monetize or demonetize it.
First off,
Let's go over the forum rules and guidelines.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1009079/pcgs-forum-rules-and-guidelines-updated-4-19-2021
Posts must not contain inappropriate language in the form of cuss words, name-calling, sexual suggestion etc.
Posts must not contain libelous (accusatory, attacking) remarks concerning any individual, company, or other entity.
Secondly, the questions were asked and discussed.
There is no more to discuss.
Finally, if one is asserting that someone has "stolen" something, then....see our rule:
Posts must not contain libelous (accusatory, attacking) remarks concerning any individual, company, or other entity.