The trouble for me, with all this kool-aid crap, is it is causing folks to pay to much for THE COIN, then they
want that plus profit to flip it.
like everything else today the consumer is the one getting the SHAFT in the END
I wanted to upgrade and promptly my enthusiasm for all the beans along with other stickers quickly waned after the LCS offered me greysheet value for low mintage proof trade dollar in OGH stating that it did not matter.
Personally I like the cac and eagle eye because they carry a lot of market weight, and they carry specific connotations. Much else seems like more noise. Cmq kinda feels a bit 'me too' at this point if you will.
@vulcanize said:
I wanted to upgrade and promptly my enthusiasm for all the beans along with other stickers quickly waned after the LCS offered me greysheet value for low mintage proof trade dollar in OGH stating that it did not matter.
I’m a bit unclear on the point you’re making, there are two separate CDN wholesale prices. One for CAC, and one without, and the CAC one is often substantially more. As far as getting better prices for an OGH, that depends on a number of variables, but I would be very hesitant to draw any conclusions based on one offer from one LCS.
This is such an easy nut to crack when it comes to moderns and/or 3 and 4 figure coins. But I could see where everybody gets shook up when there is a sticker on a $10,000 coin and now presumably 12 or 15.
To me, it's "ridiculous," in the sense that I don't care to play many of the games. But I don't begrudge those who enjoy it and/or have the means to play.
The "games" I scratch my head at include (i) the need to have MS70 versions of the Mint's latest offering; (ii) the meaningless "special" designations for some of those Mint coins that are sent right in, and (iii) the occasional well-heeled poster who bashes coins not at least MS65 as "pedestrian."
But just because I don't share those desires doesn't mean I have a problem with whatever people want to collect (well, except I don't think people who have the means to buy the best of the best should denigrate coins other people dream of acquiring).
Yes it’s gotten way out there. However If PCGS gets in it giving them competition (that label thing) - YAY!
At present don’t have any stickered (sold out). As experienced bourse room dealer I like to pick out my own nice coins so any profit from PQ material goes 100 pct to me .
@MFeld asked “What experts have have said if it’s a B or C coin, it isn’t worth buying? I haven’t heard anyone say that - not even extremely particular dealers.”
@vulcanize said:
I wanted to upgrade and promptly my enthusiasm for all the beans along with other stickers quickly waned after the LCS offered me greysheet value for low mintage proof trade dollar in OGH stating that it did not matter.
There are a number of dealers out there that take advantage of collectors. You found one. Sadly they are bad for the hobby but will always exist. I hope you passed and found one of the honest dealers.
@vulcanize said:
I wanted to upgrade and promptly my enthusiasm for all the beans along with other stickers quickly waned after the LCS offered me greysheet value for low mintage proof trade dollar in OGH stating that it did not matter.
Unless your LCS is a national dealer, it’s most likely not the right venue to sell a low mintage proof trade dollar. The reason is that many small LCS’s do not have the local clientele to resell the coin at retail and will have to sell wholesale or place in an auction. That limits their ability to pay to dollar to you. There are exceptions of course, but for a coin like that, you should shop it around on the bourse or consider an auction venue. Just my two cents.
This lowly MS67 coin failed to get a CAC sticker. Ask me if it matters,
Buy the coin, not the holder...unless it is a Black Slab or Regency holder but make sure it has a sticker...LOL
For the coin posted here, it's buy the coin, not the holder or sticker.
"If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64 Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
It’s more than a “bit” ridiculous and sign of an unhealthy market where participants do not trust (apparently) the authentication and grading companies. That cannot be good long term for price stability or growth.
@cameonut2011 said:
It’s more than a “bit” ridiculous and sign of an unhealthy market where participants do not trust (apparently) the authentication and grading companies. That cannot be good long term for price stability or growth.
The introduction of this service doesn’t necessarily indicate that (apparently), participants don’t trust the authentication and grading companies. On the other hand, if the venture is highly successful, it might mean that you’re correct.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@cameonut2011 said:
It’s more than a “bit” ridiculous and sign of an unhealthy market where participants do not trust (apparently) the authentication and grading companies. That cannot be good long term for price stability or growth.
The introduction of this service doesn’t necessarily indicate that (apparently), participants don’t trust the authentication and grading companies. On the other hand, if the venture is highly successful, it might mean that you’re correct.😉
Even if it's successful, I'm not sure it proves distrust. It could just recognize variance.
@cameonut2011 said:
It’s more than a “bit” ridiculous and sign of an unhealthy market where participants do not trust (apparently) the authentication and grading companies. That cannot be good long term for price stability or growth.
The introduction of this service doesn’t necessarily indicate that (apparently), participants don’t trust the authentication and grading companies. On the other hand, if the venture is highly successful, it might mean that you’re correct.😉
Even if it's successful, I'm not sure it proves distrust. It could just recognize variance.
I’m not sure either - hence my inclusion of the word “might”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@TwoSides2aCoin said:
Lest we forget the letters associated with the numbers. Now we need to know if it's an "A" coin, a "B" coin, or a "C" coin. You cannot tell by the color of a sticker, but you know if the experts say it's B or C coin it isn't worth buying. RUBBISH.
ridiculous and cool = funny
What experts have have said if it’s a B or C coin, it isn’t worth buying? I haven’t heard anyone say that - not even extremely particular dealers.
Maybe not spoken Feld. However the implications are there, namely by categorizing a coins grade into subsections. It's odd, at best and I personally think it muddles the grading system more than it warrants collectibility. Call it a C coin and most will say " ewww" , bottom of the totem pole.
I realize many buyers lean toward CAC approved coins, however, I had an experience lately that made the decision no more CAC submittal. I sent in eight high grade Morgan dollars through Wayne Miller for CAC approval. All eight were rejected and Wayne could not believe it. He said “what is going on there with CAC?” So CAC sent them back to Wayne and in the shipping the package fell out of the truck and they drove over it. A number of the holders were broken and CAC agreed to pay for the new holders. Some of these holders were the old NGC holders so I was not happy. Then NGC said they would not re-holder one coin (1879-S MS68) as one could slide the coin out and insert another one. Even though only CAC and NGC ever touched the coin holders. Then NGC got a call from Wayne and NGC agreed to re-holder it. So after three months I received my coins back and no green beans and new holders.
@TwoSides2aCoin said:
Lest we forget the letters associated with the numbers. Now we need to know if it's an "A" coin, a "B" coin, or a "C" coin. You cannot tell by the color of a sticker, but you know if the experts say it's B or C coin it isn't worth buying. RUBBISH.
ridiculous and cool = funny
What experts have have said if it’s a B or C coin, it isn’t worth buying? I haven’t heard anyone say that - not even extremely particular dealers.
Maybe not spoken Feld. However the implications are there, namely by categorizing a coins grade into subsections. It's odd, at best and I personally think it muddles the grading system more than it warrants collectibility. Call it a C coin and most will say " ewww" , bottom of the totem pole.
I understand and agree about the negative connotation of “C” coins. It was your inclusion of “B” coins in your comment that threw me.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
To me, the sad part is that there seems to be two collecting groups out there (sticker/slab vs. slab/raw) and they congregate in two separate groups, rarely mingling. For me, the best solution is coin clubs where at least a moderate amount of socialization is encouraged. There are a lot of nice people who collect and I am worried that we spend too much time in each subgroup as opposed to sharing in the joy of collecting.
@TwoSides2aCoin said:
Lest we forget the letters associated with the numbers. Now we need to know if it's an "A" coin, a "B" coin, or a "C" coin. You cannot tell by the color of a sticker, but you know if the experts say it's B or C coin it isn't worth buying. RUBBISH.
ridiculous and cool = funny
What experts have have said if it’s a B or C coin, it isn’t worth buying? I haven’t heard anyone say that - not even extremely particular dealers.
Maybe not spoken Feld. However the implications are there, namely by categorizing a coins grade into subsections. It's odd, at best and I personally think it muddles the grading system more than it warrants collectibility. Call it a C coin and most will say " ewww" , bottom of the totem pole.
I understand and agree about the negative connotation of “C” coins. It was your inclusion of “B” coins in your comment that threw me.
Even C coins have their price. It's like saying that a 64 isn't worth buying but a 65 is. They are both potentially worth buying but the price point is and should be different for a 65C vs. a 65AB.
Now, if some people choose to not buy any "C" coins because of fears of problems rather than simply being at the low end of the grade, that is their choice. A choice they could also make WITHOUT the sticker. If I trust my eye, and I do, I would pay more for a nicer coin in the same holder as a less nice coin - sticker or no sticker.
People keep arguing about the stickers as though they were handed down by God and forced upon the subservient masses. CAC was successful because the stickers were valued by consumers for the information they provided. As I've said before but will keep repeating, I will bid more aggressively on the CAC coin than the non-CAC coin for the simple reason that I have more confidence on coins that I'm usually not seeing in hand.
@TwoSides2aCoin said:
Lest we forget the letters associated with the numbers. Now we need to know if it's an "A" coin, a "B" coin, or a "C" coin. You cannot tell by the color of a sticker, but you know if the experts say it's B or C coin it isn't worth buying. RUBBISH.
ridiculous and cool = funny
What experts have have said if it’s a B or C coin, it isn’t worth buying? I haven’t heard anyone say that - not even extremely particular dealers.
Maybe not spoken Feld. However the implications are there, namely by categorizing a coins grade into subsections. It's odd, at best and I personally think it muddles the grading system more than it warrants collectibility. Call it a C coin and most will say " ewww" , bottom of the totem pole.
I understand and agree about the negative connotation of “C” coins. It was your inclusion of “B” coins in your comment that threw me.
Even C coins have their price. It's like saying that a 64 isn't worth buying but a 65 is. They are both potentially worth buying but the price point is and should be different for a 65C vs. a 65AB.
Now, if some people choose to not buy any "C" coins because of fears of problems rather than simply being at the low end of the grade, that is their choice. A choice they could also make WITHOUT the sticker. If I trust my eye, and I do, I would pay more for a nicer coin in the same holder as a less nice coin - sticker or no sticker.
People keep arguing about the stickers as though they were handed down by God and forced upon the subservient masses. CAC was successful because the stickers were valued by consumers for the information they provided. As I've said before but will keep repeating, I will bid more aggressively on the CAC coin than the non-CAC coin for the simple reason that I have more confidence on coins that I'm usually not seeing in hand.
I agree! But that doesn’t mean that when people refer to “C” coins there isn’t a negative connotation.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@TwoSides2aCoin said:
Lest we forget the letters associated with the numbers. Now we need to know if it's an "A" coin, a "B" coin, or a "C" coin. You cannot tell by the color of a sticker, but you know if the experts say it's B or C coin it isn't worth buying. RUBBISH.
ridiculous and cool = funny
What experts have have said if it’s a B or C coin, it isn’t worth buying? I haven’t heard anyone say that - not even extremely particular dealers.
Maybe not spoken Feld. However the implications are there, namely by categorizing a coins grade into subsections. It's odd, at best and I personally think it muddles the grading system more than it warrants collectibility. Call it a C coin and most will say " ewww" , bottom of the totem pole.
I understand and agree about the negative connotation of “C” coins. It was your inclusion of “B” coins in your comment that threw me.
Even C coins have their price. It's like saying that a 64 isn't worth buying but a 65 is. They are both potentially worth buying but the price point is and should be different for a 65C vs. a 65AB.
Now, if some people choose to not buy any "C" coins because of fears of problems rather than simply being at the low end of the grade, that is their choice. A choice they could also make WITHOUT the sticker. If I trust my eye, and I do, I would pay more for a nicer coin in the same holder as a less nice coin - sticker or no sticker.
People keep arguing about the stickers as though they were handed down by God and forced upon the subservient masses. CAC was successful because the stickers were valued by consumers for the information they provided. As I've said before but will keep repeating, I will bid more aggressively on the CAC coin than the non-CAC coin for the simple reason that I have more confidence on coins that I'm usually not seeing in hand.
In conclusion, what you're saying is you have less confidence in the grading companies and all of your trust is blindly given to CAC because they(JA) reviewed the TPG's grade and approved ?
@TwoSides2aCoin said:
Lest we forget the letters associated with the numbers. Now we need to know if it's an "A" coin, a "B" coin, or a "C" coin. You cannot tell by the color of a sticker, but you know if the experts say it's B or C coin it isn't worth buying. RUBBISH.
ridiculous and cool = funny
What experts have have said if it’s a B or C coin, it isn’t worth buying? I haven’t heard anyone say that - not even extremely particular dealers.
Maybe not spoken Feld. However the implications are there, namely by categorizing a coins grade into subsections. It's odd, at best and I personally think it muddles the grading system more than it warrants collectibility. Call it a C coin and most will say " ewww" , bottom of the totem pole.
I understand and agree about the negative connotation of “C” coins. It was your inclusion of “B” coins in your comment that threw me.
Even C coins have their price. It's like saying that a 64 isn't worth buying but a 65 is. They are both potentially worth buying but the price point is and should be different for a 65C vs. a 65AB.
Now, if some people choose to not buy any "C" coins because of fears of problems rather than simply being at the low end of the grade, that is their choice. A choice they could also make WITHOUT the sticker. If I trust my eye, and I do, I would pay more for a nicer coin in the same holder as a less nice coin - sticker or no sticker.
People keep arguing about the stickers as though they were handed down by God and forced upon the subservient masses. CAC was successful because the stickers were valued by consumers for the information they provided. As I've said before but will keep repeating, I will bid more aggressively on the CAC coin than the non-CAC coin for the simple reason that I have more confidence on coins that I'm usually not seeing in hand.
I agree! But that doesn’t mean that when people refer to “C” coins there isn’t a negative connotation.
Oh, absolutely. I thought I acknowledged that in my second paragraph.
I just try to go with the flow. If I buy a coin I really like and it is in a PCGS holder with the bean. Yeah, I like it, because it means a future collector will like it too and the coin will be easier to sell.
@TwoSides2aCoin said:
Lest we forget the letters associated with the numbers. Now we need to know if it's an "A" coin, a "B" coin, or a "C" coin. You cannot tell by the color of a sticker, but you know if the experts say it's B or C coin it isn't worth buying. RUBBISH.
ridiculous and cool = funny
What experts have have said if it’s a B or C coin, it isn’t worth buying? I haven’t heard anyone say that - not even extremely particular dealers.
Maybe not spoken Feld. However the implications are there, namely by categorizing a coins grade into subsections. It's odd, at best and I personally think it muddles the grading system more than it warrants collectibility. Call it a C coin and most will say " ewww" , bottom of the totem pole.
I understand and agree about the negative connotation of “C” coins. It was your inclusion of “B” coins in your comment that threw me.
Even C coins have their price. It's like saying that a 64 isn't worth buying but a 65 is. They are both potentially worth buying but the price point is and should be different for a 65C vs. a 65AB.
Now, if some people choose to not buy any "C" coins because of fears of problems rather than simply being at the low end of the grade, that is their choice. A choice they could also make WITHOUT the sticker. If I trust my eye, and I do, I would pay more for a nicer coin in the same holder as a less nice coin - sticker or no sticker.
People keep arguing about the stickers as though they were handed down by God and forced upon the subservient masses. CAC was successful because the stickers were valued by consumers for the information they provided. As I've said before but will keep repeating, I will bid more aggressively on the CAC coin than the non-CAC coin for the simple reason that I have more confidence on coins that I'm usually not seeing in hand.
In conclusion, what you're saying is you have less confidence in the grading companies and all of your trust is blindly given to CAC because they(JA) reviewed the TPG's grade and approved ?
I didn’t read it that way at all.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
These services are for the most part well intended and have their place within the hobby. But to try to explain all of this to a completely raw newbie must in some instances require quite the effort. Hopefully would not be discouraging to the potential new collector.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
Stickers are for the advanced collector that has no clue how to grade the series they collect. And for anyone who wants to maximize their profits so I see nothing wrong with it, to a point.
Clearly that point is now in the rearview mirror. Yet even I benefited from the approval process because now I have a new saying and will completely wear it out at work home and play. “Put a sticker on it”
If I see anything that looks good, doggone it put a sticker on it.
An interesting thing will be to see if the proliferation of slabs will result in any... perceived stigma ....as now applies to some TPGs.
That attitude leads to even MORE concerns over the holder rather than the coin.
As a former collector with two coin purchases in the past 15 or so years I will add my quasi outsider looking in view on this.
It used to be certifying a coin was reserved for something of high value or unique and a slab added more or a presentational factor. Now I see everything gets put in plastic from bullion, coins of low value, even people chasing to get the lowest possible grade. Watching a dried up cricket sell in a holder was the pinnacle of stupidity.
Buyers and sellers always had opinions of grades. Sometimes marked and other times verbal. It was an opinion and not always agreed on. Now buyers of raw coins are buying based on where they feel a third party will grade in order to sell because most new collectors cannot grade. This has become people collecting based on someone else's opinion.
I recall the Flying Eagle stickers, CAC stickers is something new, this latest company not bothered to look into. It is just another opinion. In fact it is a paid opinion of an opinion. It is sad that people now buy based on others opinions.
Two years sold 400+ coins. Everything common date type coins from Bust to Barber/SLQ era plus type gold. Purchases ended around 2006. When I collected would stick with solid strike, clean original surfaces and toning. Never chased dates/mints.
Sadly dealers were offering 40% of eventual sold prices. Some were aggressive and pushed group buy offers vs my individual approach. Individual sells at auction was best approach and that required certification. Sold 400+ and maybe 250 or so needed certified. Of those maybe 50 had been certified and removed years ago. When I began selling was surprised at the grades received. Everything was coming back strong. When the previously removed from certified coins came back those were higher too. Maybe 12 submissions to both services . In the end feel grades assigned by both PCGS/NGC were not true and buyers were paying up for them. My many presumptions of what would grade were thrown out. Think 7 or so coins ended up getting a details grade and maybe 5 resubmitted and passing. Sadly that small handful of returned coins had previously been clean grades. No raw purchased coin submissions did not grade and it eats me up that only the coins returned were ones I relied upon another opinion through prior assigned grades.
For the buyers of opinions with the looser certification standards I can see the need of a third opinion. Fortunately I never felt compelled to chase anyone else's opinion and finding something that stood out was always rewarding in the end. People chase that next assigned grade and certification companies see the market. People need to focus on the eye appeal. I always wondered what would happen when every coin ended up certified. Now have that answer. Feel very fortunate to not be a collector chasing coins in this new market.
@AUandAG said:
I'm going to start the Black Lima Bean sticker for ugly as hell discs, with denominations.
bob
vegas baby!
I've thought of starting a stickering service using the poop emoji for ugly, problem coins with stickers. Brown goes well with emerald, too. Admittedly, they would be rare, but I could become rich over the hype. It's sorta like a 'low-ball' thing.
Yes what gets me is what ya Gonna do with ugly stickered coins (gone bad in holder). What’s their lifespan when fresh out anyway 3yr, 5yr? Sight unseen Mkt? Facebook? eBay 99c auc start blowout?
My only CAC investment in ages ($10) is the CDN CAC Mkt review / price guide. Like it, very informative, great reference.
@TwoSides2aCoin said:
Lest we forget the letters associated with the numbers. Now we need to know if it's an "A" coin, a "B" coin, or a "C" coin. You cannot tell by the color of a sticker, but you know if the experts say it's B or C coin it isn't worth buying. RUBBISH.
ridiculous and cool = funny
What experts have have said if it’s a B or C coin, it isn’t worth buying? I haven’t heard anyone say that - not even extremely particular dealers.
Maybe not spoken Feld. However the implications are there, namely by categorizing a coins grade into subsections. It's odd, at best and I personally think it muddles the grading system more than it warrants collectibility. Call it a C coin and most will say " ewww" , bottom of the totem pole.
I understand and agree about the negative connotation of “C” coins. It was your inclusion of “B” coins in your comment that threw me.
Even C coins have their price. It's like saying that a 64 isn't worth buying but a 65 is. They are both potentially worth buying but the price point is and should be different for a 65C vs. a 65AB.
Now, if some people choose to not buy any "C" coins because of fears of problems rather than simply being at the low end of the grade, that is their choice. A choice they could also make WITHOUT the sticker. If I trust my eye, and I do, I would pay more for a nicer coin in the same holder as a less nice coin - sticker or no sticker.
People keep arguing about the stickers as though they were handed down by God and forced upon the subservient masses. CAC was successful because the stickers were valued by consumers for the information they provided. As I've said before but will keep repeating, I will bid more aggressively on the CAC coin than the non-CAC coin for the simple reason that I have more confidence on coins that I'm usually not seeing in hand.
In conclusion, what you're saying is you have less confidence in the grading companies and all of your trust is blindly given to CAC because they(JA) reviewed the TPG's grade and approved ?
I didn’t read it that way at all.
I read this part, that way :
"As I've said before but will keep repeating, I will bid more aggressively on the CAC coin than the non-CAC coin for the simple reason that I have more confidence on coins that I'm usually not seeing in hand."
I remember when “Uncirculated” became “Brilliant Uncirculated”, which then became “Gem BU”, but then they started playing the “Choice Gem BU” card. It never stops.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
@TwoSides2aCoin said:
Lest we forget the letters associated with the numbers. Now we need to know if it's an "A" coin, a "B" coin, or a "C" coin. You cannot tell by the color of a sticker, but you know if the experts say it's B or C coin it isn't worth buying. RUBBISH.
ridiculous and cool = funny
What experts have have said if it’s a B or C coin, it isn’t worth buying? I haven’t heard anyone say that - not even extremely particular dealers.
Maybe not spoken Feld. However the implications are there, namely by categorizing a coins grade into subsections. It's odd, at best and I personally think it muddles the grading system more than it warrants collectibility. Call it a C coin and most will say " ewww" , bottom of the totem pole.
I understand and agree about the negative connotation of “C” coins. It was your inclusion of “B” coins in your comment that threw me.
Even C coins have their price. It's like saying that a 64 isn't worth buying but a 65 is. They are both potentially worth buying but the price point is and should be different for a 65C vs. a 65AB.
Now, if some people choose to not buy any "C" coins because of fears of problems rather than simply being at the low end of the grade, that is their choice. A choice they could also make WITHOUT the sticker. If I trust my eye, and I do, I would pay more for a nicer coin in the same holder as a less nice coin - sticker or no sticker.
People keep arguing about the stickers as though they were handed down by God and forced upon the subservient masses. CAC was successful because the stickers were valued by consumers for the information they provided. As I've said before but will keep repeating, I will bid more aggressively on the CAC coin than the non-CAC coin for the simple reason that I have more confidence on coins that I'm usually not seeing in hand.
In conclusion, what you're saying is you have less confidence in the grading companies and all of your trust is blindly given to CAC because they(JA) reviewed the TPG's grade and approved ?
I didn’t read it that way at all.
I read this part, that way :
"As I've said before but will keep repeating, I will bid more aggressively on the CAC coin than the non-CAC coin for the simple reason that I have more confidence on coins that I'm usually not seeing in hand."
Interesting.
If your doctor wanted to amputate your foot, would you just do it or seek a second opinion?
You can't have a CAC sticker without a first opinion. I would much rather have two opinions before I reach deeply into my pocket. And those are two concurring opinions.
I have thought about it some. On the whole the sheer number of stickers that could be applied is ridiculous. However once you winnow out all but the one(s) with a proven track record of reliability it isn’t as ridiculous.
I feel like the extra opinions can be helpful if you value attributes that the sticker notes and believe in trustworthiness of the sticker. In the “buy based on the picture only” market it can be very helpful. In hand maybe not as much.
The downside is that this extra confidence tends to magnify the pricing differential of coins ostensibly in the same grade based on some attributes that may be more arbitrary or nuanced. That benefits some people more than others.
All that to say I do wonder if the coin market will have a correction in the next ten years. I feel like the pricing of certain higher end coins keeps getting loftier and bubble like. But I may be wrong, it’s happened before
It's the same as those who collect different series of coins. Some like a sticker some don't. Some like eisenhower dollars some don't. I only prefer certified coins to help protect myself from counterfeits and tracking my collection. I keep it simple. Do I like the coin, can I afford it. Ok. I'll take it.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
This discussion seems to have veered into the inevitable discussion of "stickers."
Speaking only for myself, I am flummoxed by either extreme--those who deride stickers, and those who worship them. I find CAC stickers to be useful, in the sense that it will make it easier to sell the coin, eventually, for a good price, because it's an independent confirmation that the coin is strong for the grade. I certainly have seen (and even own a couple, bought with my eyes open) CAC-stickered coins that aren't pretty, so a grade-with-a-sticker doesn't substitute for a careful visual evaluation; but I find value in the stickers. Which is not to say that I wouldn't buy a coin that isn't stickered--only a relatively small minority of my slabbed coins have a sticker.
@cameonut2011 said:
It’s more than a “bit” ridiculous and sign of an unhealthy market where participants do not trust (apparently) the authentication and grading companies. That cannot be good long term for price stability or growth.
The introduction of this service doesn’t necessarily indicate that (apparently), participants don’t trust the authentication and grading companies. On the other hand, if the venture is highly successful, it might mean that you’re correct.😉
Even if it's successful, I'm not sure it proves distrust. It could just recognize variance.
I’m not sure either - hence my inclusion of the word “might”.
I have not run a quantitative study with regression/statistical analysis, but I have seen and heard far too many comments from the CAC crowd that they fear all CAC rejects are overgraded or worse to write off the comments. Many of them have expressed interest in other sticker companies as well.
@cameonut2011 said:
It’s more than a “bit” ridiculous and sign of an unhealthy market where participants do not trust (apparently) the authentication and grading companies. That cannot be good long term for price stability or growth.
The introduction of this service doesn’t necessarily indicate that (apparently), participants don’t trust the authentication and grading companies. On the other hand, if the venture is highly successful, it might mean that you’re correct.😉
Even if it's successful, I'm not sure it proves distrust. It could just recognize variance.
I’m not sure either - hence my inclusion of the word “might”.
I have not run a quantitative study with regression/statistical analysis, but I have seen and heard far too many comments from the CAC crowd that they fear all CAC rejects are overgraded or worse to write off the comments. Many of them have expressed interest in other sticker companies as well.
I like CAC. I've never said it. But I will almost always bid higher for a CAC coin than a non-CAC coin
@TwoSides2aCoin said:
Lest we forget the letters associated with the numbers. Now we need to know if it's an "A" coin, a "B" coin, or a "C" coin. You cannot tell by the color of a sticker, but you know if the experts say it's B or C coin it isn't worth buying. RUBBISH.
ridiculous and cool = funny
What experts have have said if it’s a B or C coin, it isn’t worth buying? I haven’t heard anyone say that - not even extremely particular dealers.
Maybe not spoken Feld. However the implications are there, namely by categorizing a coins grade into subsections. It's odd, at best and I personally think it muddles the grading system more than it warrants collectibility. Call it a C coin and most will say " ewww" , bottom of the totem pole.
I understand and agree about the negative connotation of “C” coins. It was your inclusion of “B” coins in your comment that threw me.
Even C coins have their price. It's like saying that a 64 isn't worth buying but a 65 is. They are both potentially worth buying but the price point is and should be different for a 65C vs. a 65AB.
Now, if some people choose to not buy any "C" coins because of fears of problems rather than simply being at the low end of the grade, that is their choice. A choice they could also make WITHOUT the sticker. If I trust my eye, and I do, I would pay more for a nicer coin in the same holder as a less nice coin - sticker or no sticker.
People keep arguing about the stickers as though they were handed down by God and forced upon the subservient masses. CAC was successful because the stickers were valued by consumers for the information they provided. As I've said before but will keep repeating, I will bid more aggressively on the CAC coin than the non-CAC coin for the simple reason that I have more confidence on coins that I'm usually not seeing in hand.
In conclusion, what you're saying is you have less confidence in the grading companies and all of your trust is blindly given to CAC because they(JA) reviewed the TPG's grade and approved ?
I didn’t read it that way at all.
I read this part, that way :
"As I've said before but will keep repeating, I will bid more aggressively on the CAC coin than the non-CAC coin for the simple reason that I have more confidence on coins that I'm usually not seeing in hand."
Interesting.
If your doctor wanted to amputate your foot, would you just do it or seek a second opinion?
You can't have a CAC sticker without a first opinion. I would much rather have two opinions before I reach deeply into my pocket. And those are two concurring opinions.
But do you need three, four, or more opinions?
Let’s take a IHC… We could have an Eagle Eye, CAC, PQ, and now CMQ. Is five opinions enough? If someone needs that much assurance, it is time to find a new hobby. And unlike the medical example given, the purchase of coins (I.e. luxury item purchased as part of a hobby) is hardly life changing in any meaningful way.
@TwoSides2aCoin said:
Lest we forget the letters associated with the numbers. Now we need to know if it's an "A" coin, a "B" coin, or a "C" coin. You cannot tell by the color of a sticker, but you know if the experts say it's B or C coin it isn't worth buying. RUBBISH.
ridiculous and cool = funny
What experts have have said if it’s a B or C coin, it isn’t worth buying? I haven’t heard anyone say that - not even extremely particular dealers.
Maybe not spoken Feld. However the implications are there, namely by categorizing a coins grade into subsections. It's odd, at best and I personally think it muddles the grading system more than it warrants collectibility. Call it a C coin and most will say " ewww" , bottom of the totem pole.
I understand and agree about the negative connotation of “C” coins. It was your inclusion of “B” coins in your comment that threw me.
Even C coins have their price. It's like saying that a 64 isn't worth buying but a 65 is. They are both potentially worth buying but the price point is and should be different for a 65C vs. a 65AB.
Now, if some people choose to not buy any "C" coins because of fears of problems rather than simply being at the low end of the grade, that is their choice. A choice they could also make WITHOUT the sticker. If I trust my eye, and I do, I would pay more for a nicer coin in the same holder as a less nice coin - sticker or no sticker.
People keep arguing about the stickers as though they were handed down by God and forced upon the subservient masses. CAC was successful because the stickers were valued by consumers for the information they provided. As I've said before but will keep repeating, I will bid more aggressively on the CAC coin than the non-CAC coin for the simple reason that I have more confidence on coins that I'm usually not seeing in hand.
In conclusion, what you're saying is you have less confidence in the grading companies and all of your trust is blindly given to CAC because they(JA) reviewed the TPG's grade and approved ?
I didn’t read it that way at all.
I read this part, that way :
"As I've said before but will keep repeating, I will bid more aggressively on the CAC coin than the non-CAC coin for the simple reason that I have more confidence on coins that I'm usually not seeing in hand."
Interesting.
If your doctor wanted to amputate your foot, would you just do it or seek a second opinion?
You can't have a CAC sticker without a first opinion. I would much rather have two opinions before I reach deeply into my pocket. And those are two concurring opinions.
But do you need three, four, or more opinions?
Let’s take a IHC… We could have an Eagle Eye, CAC, PQ, and now CMQ. Is five opinions enough? If someone needs that much assurance, it is time to find a new hobby. And unlike the medical example given, the purchase of coins (I.e. luxury item purchased as part of a hobby) is hardly life changing in any meaningful way.
I have no interest in PQ or Eagle Eye. It's too soon on CMQ. But, every concurrent opinion increases confidence. Show me a PCGS CAC, CMQ coin, I may well bid higher. I also may not. There is a max value: my sight seen value.
Comments
The trouble for me, with all this kool-aid crap, is it is causing folks to pay to much for THE COIN, then they
want that plus profit to flip it.
like everything else today the consumer is the one getting the SHAFT in the END
I wanted to upgrade and promptly my enthusiasm for all the beans along with other stickers quickly waned after the LCS offered me greysheet value for low mintage proof trade dollar in OGH stating that it did not matter.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/quarters/PCGS-2020-quarter-quest/album/247091
Personally I like the cac and eagle eye because they carry a lot of market weight, and they carry specific connotations. Much else seems like more noise. Cmq kinda feels a bit 'me too' at this point if you will.
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin
I’m a bit unclear on the point you’re making, there are two separate CDN wholesale prices. One for CAC, and one without, and the CAC one is often substantially more. As far as getting better prices for an OGH, that depends on a number of variables, but I would be very hesitant to draw any conclusions based on one offer from one LCS.
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This is such an easy nut to crack when it comes to moderns and/or 3 and 4 figure coins. But I could see where everybody gets shook up when there is a sticker on a $10,000 coin and now presumably 12 or 15.
I'm going to start the Black Lima Bean sticker for ugly as hell discs, with denominations.
bob
vegas baby!
To me, it's "ridiculous," in the sense that I don't care to play many of the games. But I don't begrudge those who enjoy it and/or have the means to play.
The "games" I scratch my head at include (i) the need to have MS70 versions of the Mint's latest offering; (ii) the meaningless "special" designations for some of those Mint coins that are sent right in, and (iii) the occasional well-heeled poster who bashes coins not at least MS65 as "pedestrian."
But just because I don't share those desires doesn't mean I have a problem with whatever people want to collect (well, except I don't think people who have the means to buy the best of the best should denigrate coins other people dream of acquiring).
I miss Ricko already.
My YouTube Channel
Yes it’s gotten way out there. However If PCGS gets in it giving them competition (that label thing) - YAY!
At present don’t have any stickered (sold out). As experienced bourse room dealer I like to pick out my own nice coins so any profit from PQ material goes 100 pct to me .
@MFeld asked “What experts have have said if it’s a B or C coin, it isn’t worth buying? I haven’t heard anyone say that - not even extremely particular dealers.”
Post edited; apologies
@MFeld - I misread your statement so removed a post - apologies to all.
There are a number of dealers out there that take advantage of collectors. You found one. Sadly they are bad for the hobby but will always exist. I hope you passed and found one of the honest dealers.
Successful BST with drddm, BustDMs, Pnies20, lkeigwin, pursuitofliberty, Bullsitter, felinfoel, SPalladino
$5 Type Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/type-sets/half-eagle-type-set-circulation-strikes-1795-1929/album/344192
CBH Set https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/everyman-collections/everyman-half-dollars/everyman-capped-bust-half-dollars-1807-1839/album/345572
@Higashiyama, I don’t know what you posted, but you’ve always been a gentleman.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Unless your LCS is a national dealer, it’s most likely not the right venue to sell a low mintage proof trade dollar. The reason is that many small LCS’s do not have the local clientele to resell the coin at retail and will have to sell wholesale or place in an auction. That limits their ability to pay to dollar to you. There are exceptions of course, but for a coin like that, you should shop it around on the bourse or consider an auction venue. Just my two cents.
This lowly MS67 coin failed to get a CAC sticker. Ask me if it matters,
Buy the coin, not the holder...unless it is a Black Slab or Regency holder but make sure it has a sticker...LOL
For the coin posted here, it's buy the coin, not the holder or sticker.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
It’s more than a “bit” ridiculous and sign of an unhealthy market where participants do not trust (apparently) the authentication and grading companies. That cannot be good long term for price stability or growth.
The introduction of this service doesn’t necessarily indicate that (apparently), participants don’t trust the authentication and grading companies. On the other hand, if the venture is highly successful, it might mean that you’re correct.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
and don't forget the edges.
Someone can also put the slab in a bigger slab for protection and more stickers
Even if it's successful, I'm not sure it proves distrust. It could just recognize variance.
I’m not sure either - hence my inclusion of the word “might”.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Maybe not spoken Feld. However the implications are there, namely by categorizing a coins grade into subsections. It's odd, at best and I personally think it muddles the grading system more than it warrants collectibility. Call it a C coin and most will say " ewww" , bottom of the totem pole.
I realize many buyers lean toward CAC approved coins, however, I had an experience lately that made the decision no more CAC submittal. I sent in eight high grade Morgan dollars through Wayne Miller for CAC approval. All eight were rejected and Wayne could not believe it. He said “what is going on there with CAC?” So CAC sent them back to Wayne and in the shipping the package fell out of the truck and they drove over it. A number of the holders were broken and CAC agreed to pay for the new holders. Some of these holders were the old NGC holders so I was not happy. Then NGC said they would not re-holder one coin (1879-S MS68) as one could slide the coin out and insert another one. Even though only CAC and NGC ever touched the coin holders. Then NGC got a call from Wayne and NGC agreed to re-holder it. So after three months I received my coins back and no green beans and new holders.
I understand and agree about the negative connotation of “C” coins. It was your inclusion of “B” coins in your comment that threw me.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
To me, the sad part is that there seems to be two collecting groups out there (sticker/slab vs. slab/raw) and they congregate in two separate groups, rarely mingling. For me, the best solution is coin clubs where at least a moderate amount of socialization is encouraged. There are a lot of nice people who collect and I am worried that we spend too much time in each subgroup as opposed to sharing in the joy of collecting.
Even C coins have their price. It's like saying that a 64 isn't worth buying but a 65 is. They are both potentially worth buying but the price point is and should be different for a 65C vs. a 65AB.
Now, if some people choose to not buy any "C" coins because of fears of problems rather than simply being at the low end of the grade, that is their choice. A choice they could also make WITHOUT the sticker. If I trust my eye, and I do, I would pay more for a nicer coin in the same holder as a less nice coin - sticker or no sticker.
People keep arguing about the stickers as though they were handed down by God and forced upon the subservient masses. CAC was successful because the stickers were valued by consumers for the information they provided. As I've said before but will keep repeating, I will bid more aggressively on the CAC coin than the non-CAC coin for the simple reason that I have more confidence on coins that I'm usually not seeing in hand.
I agree! But that doesn’t mean that when people refer to “C” coins there isn’t a negative connotation.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
In conclusion, what you're saying is you have less confidence in the grading companies and all of your trust is blindly given to CAC because they(JA) reviewed the TPG's grade and approved ?
Spike the Kool-Aid
Oh, absolutely. I thought I acknowledged that in my second paragraph.
I just try to go with the flow. If I buy a coin I really like and it is in a PCGS holder with the bean. Yeah, I like it, because it means a future collector will like it too and the coin will be easier to sell.
I didn’t read it that way at all.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
These services are for the most part well intended and have their place within the hobby. But to try to explain all of this to a completely raw newbie must in some instances require quite the effort. Hopefully would not be discouraging to the potential new collector.
Stickers are for the advanced collector that has no clue how to grade the series they collect. And for anyone who wants to maximize their profits so I see nothing wrong with it, to a point.
Clearly that point is now in the rearview mirror. Yet even I benefited from the approval process because now I have a new saying and will completely wear it out at work home and play. “Put a sticker on it”
If I see anything that looks good, doggone it put a sticker on it.
This thread needs more pics.
Nice photos. I got to get my camera back out. I like to look at photos, especially of my coins. 😊
An interesting thing will be to see if the proliferation of slabs will result in any... perceived stigma ....as now applies to some TPGs.
That attitude leads to even MORE concerns over the holder rather than the coin.
As a former collector with two coin purchases in the past 15 or so years I will add my quasi outsider looking in view on this.
It used to be certifying a coin was reserved for something of high value or unique and a slab added more or a presentational factor. Now I see everything gets put in plastic from bullion, coins of low value, even people chasing to get the lowest possible grade. Watching a dried up cricket sell in a holder was the pinnacle of stupidity.
Buyers and sellers always had opinions of grades. Sometimes marked and other times verbal. It was an opinion and not always agreed on. Now buyers of raw coins are buying based on where they feel a third party will grade in order to sell because most new collectors cannot grade. This has become people collecting based on someone else's opinion.
I recall the Flying Eagle stickers, CAC stickers is something new, this latest company not bothered to look into. It is just another opinion. In fact it is a paid opinion of an opinion. It is sad that people now buy based on others opinions.
Two years sold 400+ coins. Everything common date type coins from Bust to Barber/SLQ era plus type gold. Purchases ended around 2006. When I collected would stick with solid strike, clean original surfaces and toning. Never chased dates/mints.
Sadly dealers were offering 40% of eventual sold prices. Some were aggressive and pushed group buy offers vs my individual approach. Individual sells at auction was best approach and that required certification. Sold 400+ and maybe 250 or so needed certified. Of those maybe 50 had been certified and removed years ago. When I began selling was surprised at the grades received. Everything was coming back strong. When the previously removed from certified coins came back those were higher too. Maybe 12 submissions to both services . In the end feel grades assigned by both PCGS/NGC were not true and buyers were paying up for them. My many presumptions of what would grade were thrown out. Think 7 or so coins ended up getting a details grade and maybe 5 resubmitted and passing. Sadly that small handful of returned coins had previously been clean grades. No raw purchased coin submissions did not grade and it eats me up that only the coins returned were ones I relied upon another opinion through prior assigned grades.
For the buyers of opinions with the looser certification standards I can see the need of a third opinion. Fortunately I never felt compelled to chase anyone else's opinion and finding something that stood out was always rewarding in the end. People chase that next assigned grade and certification companies see the market. People need to focus on the eye appeal. I always wondered what would happen when every coin ended up certified. Now have that answer. Feel very fortunate to not be a collector chasing coins in this new market.
I've thought of starting a stickering service using the poop emoji for ugly, problem coins with stickers. Brown goes well with emerald, too. Admittedly, they would be rare, but I could become rich over the hype. It's sorta like a 'low-ball' thing.
Yes what gets me is what ya Gonna do with ugly stickered coins (gone bad in holder). What’s their lifespan when fresh out anyway 3yr, 5yr? Sight unseen Mkt? Facebook? eBay 99c auc start blowout?
My only CAC investment in ages ($10) is the CDN CAC Mkt review / price guide. Like it, very informative, great reference.
I read this part, that way :
"As I've said before but will keep repeating, I will bid more aggressively on the CAC coin than the non-CAC coin for the simple reason that I have more confidence on coins that I'm usually not seeing in hand."
I remember when “Uncirculated” became “Brilliant Uncirculated”, which then became “Gem BU”, but then they started playing the “Choice Gem BU” card. It never stops.
I knew it would happen.
Interesting.
If your doctor wanted to amputate your foot, would you just do it or seek a second opinion?
You can't have a CAC sticker without a first opinion. I would much rather have two opinions before I reach deeply into my pocket. And those are two concurring opinions.
I have thought about it some. On the whole the sheer number of stickers that could be applied is ridiculous. However once you winnow out all but the one(s) with a proven track record of reliability it isn’t as ridiculous.
I feel like the extra opinions can be helpful if you value attributes that the sticker notes and believe in trustworthiness of the sticker. In the “buy based on the picture only” market it can be very helpful. In hand maybe not as much.
The downside is that this extra confidence tends to magnify the pricing differential of coins ostensibly in the same grade based on some attributes that may be more arbitrary or nuanced. That benefits some people more than others.
All that to say I do wonder if the coin market will have a correction in the next ten years. I feel like the pricing of certain higher end coins keeps getting loftier and bubble like. But I may be wrong, it’s happened before
It's the same as those who collect different series of coins. Some like a sticker some don't. Some like eisenhower dollars some don't. I only prefer certified coins to help protect myself from counterfeits and tracking my collection. I keep it simple. Do I like the coin, can I afford it. Ok. I'll take it.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
Collectors as a group have no one to blame but themselves for what's happening.
You mean "take credit", don't you?
This discussion seems to have veered into the inevitable discussion of "stickers."
Speaking only for myself, I am flummoxed by either extreme--those who deride stickers, and those who worship them. I find CAC stickers to be useful, in the sense that it will make it easier to sell the coin, eventually, for a good price, because it's an independent confirmation that the coin is strong for the grade. I certainly have seen (and even own a couple, bought with my eyes open) CAC-stickered coins that aren't pretty, so a grade-with-a-sticker doesn't substitute for a careful visual evaluation; but I find value in the stickers. Which is not to say that I wouldn't buy a coin that isn't stickered--only a relatively small minority of my slabbed coins have a sticker.
I have not run a quantitative study with regression/statistical analysis, but I have seen and heard far too many comments from the CAC crowd that they fear all CAC rejects are overgraded or worse to write off the comments. Many of them have expressed interest in other sticker companies as well.
I like CAC. I've never said it. But I will almost always bid higher for a CAC coin than a non-CAC coin
But do you need three, four, or more opinions?
Let’s take a IHC… We could have an Eagle Eye, CAC, PQ, and now CMQ. Is five opinions enough? If someone needs that much assurance, it is time to find a new hobby. And unlike the medical example given, the purchase of coins (I.e. luxury item purchased as part of a hobby) is hardly life changing in any meaningful way.
I have no interest in PQ or Eagle Eye. It's too soon on CMQ. But, every concurrent opinion increases confidence. Show me a PCGS CAC, CMQ coin, I may well bid higher. I also may not. There is a max value: my sight seen value.