@Maywood said: @winesteven said: I believe as potential bidders become aware of that concept, some/many will wonder why the lot they're looking at doesn't have one? What's wrong that it didn't get one?
That's 30 year old logic that was applied to raw coins after the major TPG's started up: to wit, "there must be a reason why it's not in a holder" and then it carried forward to "there must be a reason why it doesn't have a sticker" and time has proven both lines of thought to have a simple answer --- because it wasn't submitted.
I believe that will apply here.
So perhaps a very slight rephrasing of the question - If you (or others) are consigning coins to a Stacks auction, and for discussion purposes let's assume the coin is valued in the upper 3 figures or more, why wouldn't you incur the tiny charge of just a few dollars to get the CMQ sticker for that auction? After all, NO additional shipping costs are involved, and there will be no delay in making the auction.
So, the bottom line, I truly believe (and it's NOT unreasonable for others to believe), the majority of Stacks consignors will indeed incur the cost of just a few dollars. So when that lot comes up with NO CMQ, rightly or wrongly MANY of us will assume it was submitted and FAILED!
Result - fewer bidders! Be my guest and save those few dollars on your Stacks consignments. "Penny wise and......."
Steve
While your assumption about why wouldn't someone submit for a sticker when submitting coins to Stacks fully makes sense, when I asked the customer service about this they made it very clear that these are two separate operations and that is not a good assumption at all. It would seem to me that CMQ has not obtained the perception of value that CAC has and just like 10 years ago I wouldn't have bothered to apply for CAC if given an equivalent opportunity, I would assume many sellers aren't bothering with CMQ at the moment.
@winesteven, I won't engage in a debate. I was only stating why a coin might not have a sticker based on the logic of thousands of collectors over several decades. For all I know you could be correct and coins at Stack's without stickers are consigned by fools.
<<< So perhaps a very slight rephrasing of the question - If you (or others) are consigning coins to a Stacks auction, and for discussion purposes let's assume the coin is valued in the upper 3 figures or more, why wouldn't you incur the tiny charge of just a few dollars to get the CMQ sticker for that auction? After all, NO additional shipping costs are involved, and there will be no delay in making the auction.
So, the bottom line, I truly believe (and it's NOT unreasonable for others to believe), the majority of Stacks consignors will indeed incur the cost of just a few dollars. So when that lot comes up with NO CMQ, rightly or wrongly MANY of us will assume it was submitted and FAILED!
Result - fewer bidders! Be my guest and save those few dollars on your Stacks consignments. "Penny wise and......."
Steve >>>
So applying that same logic......
It can therefore be assumed that every coin offered on the Great Collections website that is not CAC stickered was submitted and failed, as GC gives consignors the opportunity to have their coins submitted to CAC right on the consignment form and even gives the consignor the option to let GC decide at their discretion to submit to CAC prior to auctioning them. Now what consignor in his/her right mind wouldn't spend a few extra dollars to do this, right Steve?
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
It can therefore be assumed that every coin offered on the Great Collections website that is not CAC stickered was submitted and failed, as GC gives consignors the opportunity to have their coins submitted to CAC right on the consignment form and even gives the consignor the option to let GC decide at their discretion to submit to CAC prior to auctioning them. Now what consignor in his/her right mind wouldn't spend a few extra dollars to do this, right Steve?
What you are missing is if one submits coins to CMQ, afterwards they can be quickly turned over to Stack'sBowers for auction. With Great Collections, the coins need to be sent by GC from the West Coast to the East Coast and then back which represents a delay in consignors receiving funds especially during periods when CAC (or CACG) did not accept new submissions.
<<< What you are missing is if one submits coins to CMQ, afterwards they can be quickly turned over to Stack'sBowers for auction. With Great Collections, the coins need to be sent by GC from the West Coast to the East Coast and then back which represents a delay in consignors receiving funds especially during periods when CAC (or CACG) did not accept new submissions. >>>
Ahhhhh.....thanks for setting me straight. So it's those several extra days in transit to and from CAC that makes all the difference, now I understand. How could I have overlooked that?
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
@Luxor said:
<<< What you are missing is if one submits coins to CMQ, afterwards they can be quickly turned over to Stack'sBowers for auction. With Great Collections, the coins need to be sent by GC from the West Coast to the East Coast and then back which represents a delay in consignors receiving funds especially during periods when CAC (or CACG) did not accept new submissions. >>>
Ahhhhh.....thanks for setting me straight. So it's those several extra days in transit to and from CAC that makes all the difference, now I understand. How could I have overlooked that?
Not days, weeks, each way. And then there is the CAC queue.
@Luxor said:
Ahhhhh.....thanks for setting me straight. So it's those several extra days in transit to and from CAC that makes all the difference, now I understand. How could I have overlooked that?
Not days, weeks, each way. And then there is the CAC queue.
Weeks in transit, each way? Is GC shipping them by conestoga wagon?
I’ve been out since 3 pm eastern, hence my delay in responding.
Yes, if I see a coin on GC (or Heritage, DLRC, Stacks, etc.) valued at high three figures or higher without a CAC sticker, I, and many others, will assume it failed, and will not bid on that coin. I fully agree that coin may possibly have NEVER been sent to CAC, AND I agree that I could be missing out on a coin that if CAC were to examine it would be problem free and solid for the grade! But my point is that because I (and others) choose to not take that risk, there WILL BE fewer bidders!!!
What is the impact on the consignor? I can say this - when I see a coin I need for my high ranked Registry sets in the grade I want, with a CAC sticker, AND with the eye appeal I like, I bid VERY aggressively! In many cases I “overpay”. Is that silly and wasteful? Probably. My point is that coins without a CAC sticker will not get my high bids, and there are other collectors like me willing to pay up that will also not bid.
So my suggestion is clear - if you are selling coins, consider spending just a few dollars extra per coin to attract a few extra bidders like me. I believe the end result will be higher than the cost of the sticker! See my next point:
OK, here’s opening a can of worms, and I’ll get tomatoes thrown at me, but I’ll say what some think: Perhaps some of the collectors who choose not to submit their coins to CAC take that position because they fear a lot of their coins will fail, and they want to avoid that psychological rejection. Yes, many rationalize their decision that they’ll send it to CAC down the road, or they want to minimize the risk of shipping loss, or they know their coins and they’ll sell them at the same pricing as coins with CAC stickers. Fine and good. But I believe my theory, is they won’t send their coins for stickering because they’re afraid their coins will fail to sticker!
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
I did a search on Stacks current auction on January 10, 2024 Collectors Choice Online Auction and zero coins were found with CMQ stickers. There were 57 with CAC stickers. Stacks has a search box under COIN PROPERTY for CAC Green, Star & Plus and Stacks has not upgraded their program to include CMQ in the search box. There does not appear to be much cooperation between Stacks and CMQ to get the new sticker company off the ground. The press release for Stack’s Bowers Galleries Partners with David Hall to Launch Collectible Market Qualified (CMQ) was in September 2023.
@Luxor said:
Ahhhhh.....thanks for setting me straight. So it's those several extra days in transit to and from CAC that makes all the difference, now I understand. How could I have overlooked that?
Not days, weeks, each way. And then there is the CAC queue.
Weeks in transit, each way? Is GC shipping them by conestoga wagon?
@winesteven said:
I’ve been out since 3 pm eastern, hence my delay in responding.
Yes, if I see a coin on GC (or Heritage, DLRC, Stacks, etc.) valued at high three figures or higher without a CAC sticker, I, and many others, will assume it failed, and will not bid on that coin. I fully agree that coin may possibly have NEVER been sent to CAC, AND I agree that I could be missing out on a coin that if CAC were to examine it would be problem free and solid for the grade! But my point is that because I (and others) choose to not take that risk, there WILL BE fewer bidders!!!
What is the impact on the consignor? I can say this - when I see a coin I need for my high ranked Registry sets in the grade I want, with a CAC sticker, AND with the eye appeal I like, I bid VERY aggressively! In many cases I “overpay”. Is that silly and wasteful? Probably. My point is that coins without a CAC sticker will not get my high bids, and there are other collectors like me willing to pay up that will also not bid.
So my suggestion is clear - if you are selling coins, consider spending just a few dollars extra per coin to attract a few extra bidders like me. I believe the end result will be higher than the cost of the sticker! See my next point:
OK, here’s opening a can of worms, and I’ll get tomatoes thrown at me, but I’ll say what some think: Perhaps some of the collectors who choose not to submit their coins to CAC take that position because they fear a lot of their coins will fail, and they want to avoid that psychological rejection. Yes, many rationalize their decision that they’ll send it to CAC down the road, or they want to minimize the risk of shipping loss, or they know their coins and they’ll sell them at the same pricing as coins with CAC stickers. Fine and good. But I believe my theory, is they won’t send their coins for stickering because they’re afraid their coins will fail to sticker!
Steve
Very well articulated, Steve.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@winesteven said:
So, the bottom line, I truly believe (and it's NOT unreasonable for others to believe), the majority of Stacks consignors will indeed incur the cost of just a few dollars. So when that lot comes up with NO CMQ, rightly or wrongly MANY of us will assume it was submitted and FAILED!
Well you know what happens when you assume. You might miss out on some great coins.
@winesteven said:
So, the bottom line, I truly believe (and it's NOT unreasonable for others to believe), the majority of Stacks consignors will indeed incur the cost of just a few dollars. So when that lot comes up with NO CMQ, rightly or wrongly MANY of us will assume it was submitted and FAILED!
Well you know what happens when you assume. You might miss out on some great coins.
That's EXACTLY what I said above! Please read my post:
@winesteven said:
I’ve been out since 3 pm eastern, hence my delay in responding.
Yes, if I see a coin on GC (or Heritage, DLRC, Stacks, etc.) valued at high three figures or higher without a CAC sticker, I, and many others, will assume it failed, and will not bid on that coin. I fully agree that coin may possibly have NEVER been sent to CAC, AND I agree that I could be missing out on a coin that if CAC were to examine it would be problem free and solid for the grade! But my point is that because I (and others) choose to not take that risk, there WILL BE fewer bidders!!!
What is the impact on the consignor? I can say this - when I see a coin I need for my high ranked Registry sets in the grade I want, with a CAC sticker, AND with the eye appeal I like, I bid VERY aggressively! In many cases I “overpay”. Is that silly and wasteful? Probably. My point is that coins without a CAC sticker will not get my high bids, and there are other collectors like me willing to pay up that will also not bid.
So my suggestion is clear - if you are selling coins, consider spending just a few dollars extra per coin to attract a few extra bidders like me. I believe the end result will be higher than the cost of the sticker! See my next point:
OK, here’s opening a can of worms, and I’ll get tomatoes thrown at me, but I’ll say what some think: Perhaps some of the collectors who choose not to submit their coins to CAC take that position because they fear a lot of their coins will fail, and they want to avoid that psychological rejection. Yes, many rationalize their decision that they’ll send it to CAC down the road, or they want to minimize the risk of shipping loss, or they know their coins and they’ll sell them at the same pricing as coins with CAC stickers. Fine and good. But I believe my theory, is they won’t send their coins for stickering because they’re afraid their coins will fail to sticker!
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@winesteven said:
So, the bottom line, I truly believe (and it's NOT unreasonable for others to believe), the majority of Stacks consignors will indeed incur the cost of just a few dollars. So when that lot comes up with NO CMQ, rightly or wrongly MANY of us will assume it was submitted and FAILED!
Well you know what happens when you assume. You might miss out on some great coins.
That's EXACTLY what I said above! Please read my post:
@winesteven said:
I’ve been out since 3 pm eastern, hence my delay in responding.
Yes, if I see a coin on GC (or Heritage, DLRC, Stacks, etc.) valued at high three figures or higher without a CAC sticker, I, and many others, will assume it failed, and will not bid on that coin. I fully agree that coin may possibly have NEVER been sent to CAC, AND I agree that I could be missing out on a coin that if CAC were to examine it would be problem free and solid for the grade! But my point is that because I (and others) choose to not take that risk, there WILL BE fewer bidders!!!
What is the impact on the consignor? I can say this - when I see a coin I need for my high ranked Registry sets in the grade I want, with a CAC sticker, AND with the eye appeal I like, I bid VERY aggressively! In many cases I “overpay”. Is that silly and wasteful? Probably. My point is that coins without a CAC sticker will not get my high bids, and there are other collectors like me willing to pay up that will also not bid.
So my suggestion is clear - if you are selling coins, consider spending just a few dollars extra per coin to attract a few extra bidders like me. I believe the end result will be higher than the cost of the sticker! See my next point:
OK, here’s opening a can of worms, and I’ll get tomatoes thrown at me, but I’ll say what some think: Perhaps some of the collectors who choose not to submit their coins to CAC take that position because they fear a lot of their coins will fail, and they want to avoid that psychological rejection. Yes, many rationalize their decision that they’ll send it to CAC down the road, or they want to minimize the risk of shipping loss, or they know their coins and they’ll sell them at the same pricing as coins with CAC stickers. Fine and good. But I believe my theory, is they won’t send their coins for stickering because they’re afraid their coins will fail to sticker!
Right. So maybe you shouldn't make that assumption.
@winesteven said:
So, the bottom line, I truly believe (and it's NOT unreasonable for others to believe), the majority of Stacks consignors will indeed incur the cost of just a few dollars. So when that lot comes up with NO CMQ, rightly or wrongly MANY of us will assume it was submitted and FAILED!
Well you know what happens when you assume. You might miss out on some great coins.
That's EXACTLY what I said above! Please read my post:
@winesteven said:
I’ve been out since 3 pm eastern, hence my delay in responding.
Yes, if I see a coin on GC (or Heritage, DLRC, Stacks, etc.) valued at high three figures or higher without a CAC sticker, I, and many others, will assume it failed, and will not bid on that coin. I fully agree that coin may possibly have NEVER been sent to CAC, AND I agree that I could be missing out on a coin that if CAC were to examine it would be problem free and solid for the grade! But my point is that because I (and others) choose to not take that risk, there WILL BE fewer bidders!!!
What is the impact on the consignor? I can say this - when I see a coin I need for my high ranked Registry sets in the grade I want, with a CAC sticker, AND with the eye appeal I like, I bid VERY aggressively! In many cases I “overpay”. Is that silly and wasteful? Probably. My point is that coins without a CAC sticker will not get my high bids, and there are other collectors like me willing to pay up that will also not bid.
So my suggestion is clear - if you are selling coins, consider spending just a few dollars extra per coin to attract a few extra bidders like me. I believe the end result will be higher than the cost of the sticker! See my next point:
OK, here’s opening a can of worms, and I’ll get tomatoes thrown at me, but I’ll say what some think: Perhaps some of the collectors who choose not to submit their coins to CAC take that position because they fear a lot of their coins will fail, and they want to avoid that psychological rejection. Yes, many rationalize their decision that they’ll send it to CAC down the road, or they want to minimize the risk of shipping loss, or they know their coins and they’ll sell them at the same pricing as coins with CAC stickers. Fine and good. But I believe my theory, is they won’t send their coins for stickering because they’re afraid their coins will fail to sticker!
Right. So maybe you shouldn't make that assumption.
His point was "I (and others) choose to not take that risk."
@winesteven said:
So, the bottom line, I truly believe (and it's NOT unreasonable for others to believe), the majority of Stacks consignors will indeed incur the cost of just a few dollars. So when that lot comes up with NO CMQ, rightly or wrongly MANY of us will assume it was submitted and FAILED!
Well you know what happens when you assume. You might miss out on some great coins.
That's EXACTLY what I said above! Please read my post:
@winesteven said:
I’ve been out since 3 pm eastern, hence my delay in responding.
Yes, if I see a coin on GC (or Heritage, DLRC, Stacks, etc.) valued at high three figures or higher without a CAC sticker, I, and many others, will assume it failed, and will not bid on that coin. I fully agree that coin may possibly have NEVER been sent to CAC, AND I agree that I could be missing out on a coin that if CAC were to examine it would be problem free and solid for the grade! But my point is that because I (and others) choose to not take that risk, there WILL BE fewer bidders!!!
What is the impact on the consignor? I can say this - when I see a coin I need for my high ranked Registry sets in the grade I want, with a CAC sticker, AND with the eye appeal I like, I bid VERY aggressively! In many cases I “overpay”. Is that silly and wasteful? Probably. My point is that coins without a CAC sticker will not get my high bids, and there are other collectors like me willing to pay up that will also not bid.
So my suggestion is clear - if you are selling coins, consider spending just a few dollars extra per coin to attract a few extra bidders like me. I believe the end result will be higher than the cost of the sticker! See my next point:
OK, here’s opening a can of worms, and I’ll get tomatoes thrown at me, but I’ll say what some think: Perhaps some of the collectors who choose not to submit their coins to CAC take that position because they fear a lot of their coins will fail, and they want to avoid that psychological rejection. Yes, many rationalize their decision that they’ll send it to CAC down the road, or they want to minimize the risk of shipping loss, or they know their coins and they’ll sell them at the same pricing as coins with CAC stickers. Fine and good. But I believe my theory, is they won’t send their coins for stickering because they’re afraid their coins will fail to sticker!
Right. So maybe you shouldn't make that assumption.
His point was "I (and others) choose to not take that risk."
And he was very clear on that - with eyes wide open, he chooses not to take that risk.
Some people have a much higher risk tolerance than others. And everyone should do what works for them, without pushing their way of doing things on others. I haven't seen him say "So maybe you should make that assumption."
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@winesteven said:
So, the bottom line, I truly believe (and it's NOT unreasonable for others to believe), the majority of Stacks consignors will indeed incur the cost of just a few dollars. So when that lot comes up with NO CMQ, rightly or wrongly MANY of us will assume it was submitted and FAILED!
Well you know what happens when you assume. You might miss out on some great coins.
That's EXACTLY what I said above! Please read my post:
@winesteven said:
I’ve been out since 3 pm eastern, hence my delay in responding.
Yes, if I see a coin on GC (or Heritage, DLRC, Stacks, etc.) valued at high three figures or higher without a CAC sticker, I, and many others, will assume it failed, and will not bid on that coin. I fully agree that coin may possibly have NEVER been sent to CAC, AND I agree that I could be missing out on a coin that if CAC were to examine it would be problem free and solid for the grade! But my point is that because I (and others) choose to not take that risk, there WILL BE fewer bidders!!!
What is the impact on the consignor? I can say this - when I see a coin I need for my high ranked Registry sets in the grade I want, with a CAC sticker, AND with the eye appeal I like, I bid VERY aggressively! In many cases I “overpay”. Is that silly and wasteful? Probably. My point is that coins without a CAC sticker will not get my high bids, and there are other collectors like me willing to pay up that will also not bid.
So my suggestion is clear - if you are selling coins, consider spending just a few dollars extra per coin to attract a few extra bidders like me. I believe the end result will be higher than the cost of the sticker! See my next point:
OK, here’s opening a can of worms, and I’ll get tomatoes thrown at me, but I’ll say what some think: Perhaps some of the collectors who choose not to submit their coins to CAC take that position because they fear a lot of their coins will fail, and they want to avoid that psychological rejection. Yes, many rationalize their decision that they’ll send it to CAC down the road, or they want to minimize the risk of shipping loss, or they know their coins and they’ll sell them at the same pricing as coins with CAC stickers. Fine and good. But I believe my theory, is they won’t send their coins for stickering because they’re afraid their coins will fail to sticker!
Right. So maybe you shouldn't make that assumption.
That's an assumption I want to make, since I choose to not take the risk of buying a coin that failed. Coins that fail, fail for a reason, and I choose for my collection to minimize having those coins. I'm not as expert as JA and his team. Maybe you are, and if so, congratulations. Or maybe you don't mind having coins in your collection that JA and his team determine have issues, including not being solid for the grade, that the TPG's don't object to. There's no right or wrong, just personal choice.
Enjoy the hobby with what you choose to collect.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@winesteven said:
So, the bottom line, I truly believe (and it's NOT unreasonable for others to believe), the majority of Stacks consignors will indeed incur the cost of just a few dollars. So when that lot comes up with NO CMQ, rightly or wrongly MANY of us will assume it was submitted and FAILED!
Well you know what happens when you assume. You might miss out on some great coins.
That's EXACTLY what I said above! Please read my post:
@winesteven said:
I’ve been out since 3 pm eastern, hence my delay in responding.
Yes, if I see a coin on GC (or Heritage, DLRC, Stacks, etc.) valued at high three figures or higher without a CAC sticker, I, and many others, will assume it failed, and will not bid on that coin. I fully agree that coin may possibly have NEVER been sent to CAC, AND I agree that I could be missing out on a coin that if CAC were to examine it would be problem free and solid for the grade! But my point is that because I (and others) choose to not take that risk, there WILL BE fewer bidders!!!
What is the impact on the consignor? I can say this - when I see a coin I need for my high ranked Registry sets in the grade I want, with a CAC sticker, AND with the eye appeal I like, I bid VERY aggressively! In many cases I “overpay”. Is that silly and wasteful? Probably. My point is that coins without a CAC sticker will not get my high bids, and there are other collectors like me willing to pay up that will also not bid.
So my suggestion is clear - if you are selling coins, consider spending just a few dollars extra per coin to attract a few extra bidders like me. I believe the end result will be higher than the cost of the sticker! See my next point:
OK, here’s opening a can of worms, and I’ll get tomatoes thrown at me, but I’ll say what some think: Perhaps some of the collectors who choose not to submit their coins to CAC take that position because they fear a lot of their coins will fail, and they want to avoid that psychological rejection. Yes, many rationalize their decision that they’ll send it to CAC down the road, or they want to minimize the risk of shipping loss, or they know their coins and they’ll sell them at the same pricing as coins with CAC stickers. Fine and good. But I believe my theory, is they won’t send their coins for stickering because they’re afraid their coins will fail to sticker!
Steve
Steve: I am one of the others you referred to, especially when buying MS gold. The logic you articulated is spot on for me. As a matter of fact when I'm on Heritage or GC, my filters are set for Denomination/PCGS/CAC. 90% of the time I am totally blind to other inventory up for auction, right or wrong. Recently I have changed my filters slightly to ensure I am viewing CACG .
Jake
@winesteven said:
So, the bottom line, I truly believe (and it's NOT unreasonable for others to believe), the majority of Stacks consignors will indeed incur the cost of just a few dollars. So when that lot comes up with NO CMQ, rightly or wrongly MANY of us will assume it was submitted and FAILED!
Well you know what happens when you assume. You might miss out on some great coins.
That's EXACTLY what I said above! Please read my post:
@winesteven said:
I’ve been out since 3 pm eastern, hence my delay in responding.
Yes, if I see a coin on GC (or Heritage, DLRC, Stacks, etc.) valued at high three figures or higher without a CAC sticker, I, and many others, will assume it failed, and will not bid on that coin. I fully agree that coin may possibly have NEVER been sent to CAC, AND I agree that I could be missing out on a coin that if CAC were to examine it would be problem free and solid for the grade! But my point is that because I (and others) choose to not take that risk, there WILL BE fewer bidders!!!
What is the impact on the consignor? I can say this - when I see a coin I need for my high ranked Registry sets in the grade I want, with a CAC sticker, AND with the eye appeal I like, I bid VERY aggressively! In many cases I “overpay”. Is that silly and wasteful? Probably. My point is that coins without a CAC sticker will not get my high bids, and there are other collectors like me willing to pay up that will also not bid.
So my suggestion is clear - if you are selling coins, consider spending just a few dollars extra per coin to attract a few extra bidders like me. I believe the end result will be higher than the cost of the sticker! See my next point:
OK, here’s opening a can of worms, and I’ll get tomatoes thrown at me, but I’ll say what some think: Perhaps some of the collectors who choose not to submit their coins to CAC take that position because they fear a lot of their coins will fail, and they want to avoid that psychological rejection. Yes, many rationalize their decision that they’ll send it to CAC down the road, or they want to minimize the risk of shipping loss, or they know their coins and they’ll sell them at the same pricing as coins with CAC stickers. Fine and good. But I believe my theory, is they won’t send their coins for stickering because they’re afraid their coins will fail to sticker!
Steve
Steve: I am one of the others you referred to, especially when buying MS gold. The logic you articulated is spot on for me. As a matter of fact when I'm on Heritage or GC, my filters are set for Denomination/PCGS/CAC. 90% of the time I am totally blind to other inventory up for auction, right or wrong. Recently I have changed my filters slightly to ensure I am viewing CACG .
Jake
I use the filters too on all sites I search every night. And you and I are not the only two that choose not to bid on coins above a certain value that are eligible for CAC stickers that don't have CAC stickers. As I've said several times, all that means are fewer serious buyers for unstickered coins! Just think how little it cost to get the stickers for coins that merit them!
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@winesteven said:
So, the bottom line, I truly believe (and it's NOT unreasonable for others to believe), the majority of Stacks consignors will indeed incur the cost of just a few dollars. So when that lot comes up with NO CMQ, rightly or wrongly MANY of us will assume it was submitted and FAILED!
Well you know what happens when you assume. You might miss out on some great coins.
That's EXACTLY what I said above! Please read my post:
@winesteven said:
I’ve been out since 3 pm eastern, hence my delay in responding.
Yes, if I see a coin on GC (or Heritage, DLRC, Stacks, etc.) valued at high three figures or higher without a CAC sticker, I, and many others, will assume it failed, and will not bid on that coin. I fully agree that coin may possibly have NEVER been sent to CAC, AND I agree that I could be missing out on a coin that if CAC were to examine it would be problem free and solid for the grade! But my point is that because I (and others) choose to not take that risk, there WILL BE fewer bidders!!!
What is the impact on the consignor? I can say this - when I see a coin I need for my high ranked Registry sets in the grade I want, with a CAC sticker, AND with the eye appeal I like, I bid VERY aggressively! In many cases I “overpay”. Is that silly and wasteful? Probably. My point is that coins without a CAC sticker will not get my high bids, and there are other collectors like me willing to pay up that will also not bid.
So my suggestion is clear - if you are selling coins, consider spending just a few dollars extra per coin to attract a few extra bidders like me. I believe the end result will be higher than the cost of the sticker! See my next point:
OK, here’s opening a can of worms, and I’ll get tomatoes thrown at me, but I’ll say what some think: Perhaps some of the collectors who choose not to submit their coins to CAC take that position because they fear a lot of their coins will fail, and they want to avoid that psychological rejection. Yes, many rationalize their decision that they’ll send it to CAC down the road, or they want to minimize the risk of shipping loss, or they know their coins and they’ll sell them at the same pricing as coins with CAC stickers. Fine and good. But I believe my theory, is they won’t send their coins for stickering because they’re afraid their coins will fail to sticker!
Steve
Steve: I am one of the others you referred to, especially when buying MS gold. The logic you articulated is spot on for me. As a matter of fact when I'm on Heritage or GC, my filters are set for Denomination/PCGS/CAC. 90% of the time I am totally blind to other inventory up for auction, right or wrong. Recently I have changed my filters slightly to ensure I am viewing CACG .
Jake
I use the filters too on all sites I search every night. And you and I are not the only two that choose not to bid on coins above a certain value that are eligible for CAC stickers that don't have CAC stickers. As I've said several times, all that means are fewer serious buyers for unstickered coins! Just think how little it cost to get the stickers for coins that merit them!
Steve
I also won’t bid on a modestly priced coin without a sticker for the reasons Steve has previously stated. I also realize that some of these coins may not have been submitted to CAC but on the other hand I’m going to assume that most have.
Yet another "here's my opinion" service....joy. I'm underwhelmed.
USAF (Ret) 1974 - 1994 - The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. Remembering RickO, a brother in arms.
As an FYI, I submitted three coins to CMQ as an experiment of sorts. Two with gold CACs and one with a green CAC. I will post the results when they are reviewed, hopefully by the end of this week.
@Luxor said:
I'm thinking of submitting these gold coins hoping for a CMQ or two:
there doesn’t seem to be any reliable information on any of these gold CMQ coins bringing a substantial higher market price so what is the point
I agree that if anything, gold coins that merit CAC stickers probably have a greater chance of having an increased market value, especially since CAC is tough on gold coins, presumably due to “surface treatments” unacceptable to CAC but acceptable to PCGS and NGC.
But if I were consigning coins to a Stacks auction, whether the coins had CAC stickers or not, I would make the consignment of each coin contingent upon if the coin got a CMQ sticker or not. Unlike submitting a coin to CAC where there are costs and slight risks of round trip shipping, along with the extra time of round trip shipping, once Stacks has the coins in hand, those three disadvantages don’t apply to CMQ stickering, since they just bring the coins down the “Hall” (lol). Because of that ease and low cost of applying for CMQ’s once Stacks has the coins anyway, as a potential buyer of a Stacks lot, I’d be concerned if the coin I wanted to bid on did NOT have a CMQ!
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
Here’s an odd question based on my comment just above. What if I’m very interested in bidding on a coin without a CMQ in a Stacks auction, and I call Stacks to speak with one of their Numismatists to get the coin in their hand (as I typically do anyway to ask a couple of questions). I then say that I’ll pay the nominal fee to see if the coin would get a CMQ. Naturally, to actually apply the sticker they would need the permission of the consignor, but my reason for paying the fee would be to find out before I place a bid on that coin if there was a “problem” with that coin if it would fail getting a CMQ?
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@winesteven said:
once Stacks has the coins in hand, those three disadvantages don’t apply to CMQ stickering, since they just bring the coins down the “Hall” (lol).
@winesteven said:
Here’s an odd question based on my comment just above. What if I’m very interested in bidding on a coin without a CMQ in a Stacks auction, and I call Stacks to speak with one of their Numismatists to get the coin in their hand (as I typically do anyway to ask a couple of questions). I then say that I’ll pay the nominal fee to see if the coin would get a CMQ. Naturally, to actually apply the sticker they would need the permission of the consignor, but my reason for paying the fee would be to find out before I place a bid on that coin if there was a “problem” with that coin if it would fail getting a CMQ?
That would be nice but I know they would not because they emphasize that while they have common ownership, they are two separate operations and they probably want to keep it that way. Plus I surmise that it would complicate operations tremendously.
You may very well be right, but even though they are different operations, when one consigns a coin to Stacks, and "checks the box", Stacks Auctions gives the coin to CMQ stickering. This is no different. I don't believe logistics is the issue. The true issue is a policy issue, having a potential bidder paying the fee to get CMQ's opinion, even if it's agreed not to apply the sticker if it passes, unless the consignor agrees. And if they did allow this, and I did indeed pay the fee, I would insist that they just give me the opinion, but if it passes, since I'm paying the fee, absolutely do NOT apply the sticker, since I don't want other bidders knowing it has a CMQ.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@Luxor said:
I'm thinking of submitting these gold coins hoping for a CMQ or two:
there doesn’t seem to be any reliable information on any of these gold CMQ coins bringing a substantial higher market price so what is the point
I agree that if anything, gold coins that merit CAC stickers probably have a greater chance of having an increased market value, especially since CAC is tough on gold coins, presumably due to “surface treatments” unacceptable to CAC but acceptable to PCGS and NGC.
But if I were consigning coins to a Stacks auction, whether the coins had CAC stickers or not, I would make the consignment of each coin contingent upon if the coin got a CMQ sticker or not. Unlike submitting a coin to CAC where there are costs and slight risks of round trip shipping, along with the extra time of round trip shipping, once Stacks has the coins in hand, those three disadvantages don’t apply to CMQ stickering, since they just bring the coins down the “Hall” (lol). Because of that ease and low cost of applying for CMQ’s once Stacks has the coins anyway, as a potential buyer of a Stacks lot, I’d be concerned if the coin I wanted to bid on did NOT have a CMQ!
Steve
To simplify the seller's negotiations with Stacks, my suggestion would be to first submit the coins to CMQ. Have CMQ make an offer to purchase all the coins. Then decide whether to put the coins at auction or sell them outright to CMQ or have the coins that do not CMQ returned.
I would insist that they just give me the opinion, but if it passes, since I'm paying the fee, absolutely do NOT apply the sticker, since I don't want other bidders knowing it has a CMQ.
Steve
I'm so glad you and I don't bid on the same coins.
@winesteven said:
You may very well be right, but even though they are different operations, when one consigns a coin to Stacks, and "checks the box", Stacks Auctions gives the coin to CMQ stickering. This is no different. I don't believe logistics is the issue. The true issue is a policy issue, having a potential bidder paying the fee to get CMQ's opinion, even if it's agreed not to apply the sticker if it passes, unless the consignor agrees. And if they did allow this, and I did indeed pay the fee, I would insist that they just give me the opinion, but if it passes, since I'm paying the fee, absolutely do NOT apply the sticker, since I don't want other bidders knowing it has a CMQ.
You haven't thought through the logistics issues then. First, all of the stickering happens at the CA location, but they have locations around the country and world. I believe that the coins are not always necessarily at the CA location although I could be wrong. The website gives me the impression that they make coin auctions viewable in person at the other locations and probably at big coin shows. Second, they have an established workflow where all of the auction items are (I'm guessing) stored and secured in one location in a neat orderly fashion. Now you're grabbing select pieces and removing them from that location taking them to another, and then returning them. It doesn't sound like a lot but it introduces a lot of opportunity to misplace or lose items. Third, there are issues if you ask for an evaluation on Monday and while it's in CMQ process, another bidder asks for the same service on the same item. Then there are timing issues and re-imaging coins that pass to show the slab with sticker. Not that some or all of these couldn't be handled, but it adds a lot of complexity and risk for what is probably very minimal return.
What I would love is that after you win an auction, you have the option to have items reviewed for CMQ before they send it to you.
What I would love is that after you win an auction, you have the option to have items reviewed for CMQ before they send it to you.
Most likely that can be done. GC and Heritage have sent coins to CAC for me.
After the auction? It's easy for them to do it before. It's a little disruptive to do it after an auction when they are furiously packing everything up waiting to ship it, and then does CAC return the coin directly to you or back to HA/GC, at which point they have to turn around and ship it to you?
My understanding, and I could very well be wrong, is that while coins to be consigned to Stacks can initially be given/shipped to any of their locations, for US auctions, they do indeed end up in one location - California. I know for a fact that from California ALL coins in an auction may first be shipped to NY for viewing, and then shipped once more to a final destination, like Baltimore, where they can be viewed at the Whitman show, and then all returned back to California for shipping to the high bidders. i just bought a coin from that Whitman auction, and when I called California in advance of the auction to speak with a Stacks numismatist, they told me the coins had been shipped to NY from California, before ultimately heading to Baltimore, and then back to California. As such, i spoke to their NY numismatist, who got the coin in hand. As such, the main point you make doesn't hold up, since presumably the CMQ analysis, even by the consignor, would/can be done when the coin is initially in that central location in California.
Regarding Disney's suggestion of actually buying the coin at auction and only then paying the fee and finding out if it fails!!! Would I buy a problem coin without knowing what the problem was? Maybe yes, maybe no, obviously depending on the problem. Speaking only for myself, I would want to know if and what the problem is BEFORE I bid on a coin, NOT after I paid for it in an auction!.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@winesteven said:
My understanding, and I could very well be wrong, is that while coins to be consigned to Stacks can initially be given/shipped to any of their locations, for US auctions, they do indeed end up in one location - California. I know for a fact that from California ALL coins in an auction may first be shipped to NY for viewing, and then shipped once more to a final destination, like Baltimore, where they can be viewed at the Whitman show, and then all returned back to California for shipping to the high bidders. i just bought a coin from that Whitman auction, and when I called California in advance of the auction to speak with a Stacks numismatist, they told me the coins had been shipped to NY from California, before ultimately heading to Baltimore, and then back to California. As such, i spoke to their NY numismatist, who got the coin in hand. As such, the main point you make doesn't hold up, since presumably the CMQ analysis, even by the consignor, would/can be done when the coin is initially in that central location in California.
You ignored the other points I made which are not small.
One thing I didn't mention is the optics of an auction company saying, "We're auctioning a bunch of items for you to bid on and they are all amazing and wonderful. But for an extra fee we'll give you an expert evaluation, but only to those people who pay for it."
@winesteven said:
My understanding, and I could very well be wrong, is that while coins to be consigned to Stacks can initially be given/shipped to any of their locations, for US auctions, they do indeed end up in one location - California. I know for a fact that from California ALL coins in an auction may first be shipped to NY for viewing, and then shipped once more to a final destination, like Baltimore, where they can be viewed at the Whitman show, and then all returned back to California for shipping to the high bidders. i just bought a coin from that Whitman auction, and when I called California in advance of the auction to speak with a Stacks numismatist, they told me the coins had been shipped to NY from California, before ultimately heading to Baltimore, and then back to California. As such, i spoke to their NY numismatist, who got the coin in hand. As such, the main point you make doesn't hold up, since presumably the CMQ analysis, even by the consignor, would/can be done when the coin is initially in that central location in California.
You ignored the other points I made which are not small.
One thing I didn't mention is the optics of an auction company saying, "We're auctioning a bunch of items for you to bid on and they are all amazing and wonderful. But for an extra fee we'll give you an expert evaluation, but only to those people who pay for it."
Yes, I ignored your other point BECAUSE it made sense, lol.
FYI, firms like Stacks and most others will accept for consignment virtually ANY straight graded coin, no matter how much of a dog it is, no matter if the eye appeal is ugly, no matter if the auction house thinks the coin might be overgraded. So this last point does not hold water! it's for THAT VERY reason that CAC stickering has grown to such a great demand (not that there aren't plenty of CAC stickered coins that don't have the eye appeal collectors want) .
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@Luxor said:
I'm thinking of submitting these gold coins hoping for a CMQ or two:
there doesn’t seem to be any reliable information on any of these gold CMQ coins bringing a substantial higher market price so what is the point
I agree that if anything, gold coins that merit CAC stickers probably have a greater chance of having an increased market value, especially since CAC is tough on gold coins, presumably due to “surface treatments” unacceptable to CAC but acceptable to PCGS and NGC.
But if I were consigning coins to a Stacks auction, whether the coins had CAC stickers or not, I would make the consignment of each coin contingent upon if the coin got a CMQ sticker or not. Unlike submitting a coin to CAC where there are costs and slight risks of round trip shipping, along with the extra time of round trip shipping, once Stacks has the coins in hand, those three disadvantages don’t apply to CMQ stickering, since they just bring the coins down the “Hall” (lol). Because of that ease and low cost of applying for CMQ’s once Stacks has the coins anyway, as a potential buyer of a Stacks lot, I’d be concerned if the coin I wanted to bid on did NOT have a CMQ!
Steve
I am wondering if the lack of a CMQ sticker matters that much as you Steve have said yourself that you don’t hold much regard for the value of their opinion
@Slade01 said:
So does GC remove all CMQ stickers still, or was that a one time thing just to piss somebody off?
That was discussed on another thread and @ianrussell said:
We do not state anywhere that we accept CMQ stickers on coins. And I do agree with you, that it would be better if we reached out to the consignor first, so we are going to change our policy about this.
@Luxor said:
I'm thinking of submitting these gold coins hoping for a CMQ or two:
there doesn’t seem to be any reliable information on any of these gold CMQ coins bringing a substantial higher market price so what is the point
I agree that if anything, gold coins that merit CAC stickers probably have a greater chance of having an increased market value, especially since CAC is tough on gold coins, presumably due to “surface treatments” unacceptable to CAC but acceptable to PCGS and NGC.
But if I were consigning coins to a Stacks auction, whether the coins had CAC stickers or not, I would make the consignment of each coin contingent upon if the coin got a CMQ sticker or not. Unlike submitting a coin to CAC where there are costs and slight risks of round trip shipping, along with the extra time of round trip shipping, once Stacks has the coins in hand, those three disadvantages don’t apply to CMQ stickering, since they just bring the coins down the “Hall” (lol). Because of that ease and low cost of applying for CMQ’s once Stacks has the coins anyway, as a potential buyer of a Stacks lot, I’d be concerned if the coin I wanted to bid on did NOT have a CMQ!
Steve
I am wondering if the lack of a CMQ sticker matters that much as you Steve have said yourself that you don’t hold much regard for the value of their opinion
The more the merrier as long as it has a CAC.
HOWEVER, in all seriousness, CAC is known for stickering some coins that don't appear to be eye appealing. I wonder if those coins would be rejected by CMQ?
Comments
While your assumption about why wouldn't someone submit for a sticker when submitting coins to Stacks fully makes sense, when I asked the customer service about this they made it very clear that these are two separate operations and that is not a good assumption at all. It would seem to me that CMQ has not obtained the perception of value that CAC has and just like 10 years ago I wouldn't have bothered to apply for CAC if given an equivalent opportunity, I would assume many sellers aren't bothering with CMQ at the moment.
@winesteven, I won't engage in a debate. I was only stating why a coin might not have a sticker based on the logic of thousands of collectors over several decades. For all I know you could be correct and coins at Stack's without stickers are consigned by fools.
Does anyone think a gold sticker from CMQ would add substantially to the price of a coin
<<< So perhaps a very slight rephrasing of the question - If you (or others) are consigning coins to a Stacks auction, and for discussion purposes let's assume the coin is valued in the upper 3 figures or more, why wouldn't you incur the tiny charge of just a few dollars to get the CMQ sticker for that auction? After all, NO additional shipping costs are involved, and there will be no delay in making the auction.
So, the bottom line, I truly believe (and it's NOT unreasonable for others to believe), the majority of Stacks consignors will indeed incur the cost of just a few dollars. So when that lot comes up with NO CMQ, rightly or wrongly MANY of us will assume it was submitted and FAILED!
Result - fewer bidders! Be my guest and save those few dollars on your Stacks consignments. "Penny wise and......."
Steve >>>
So applying that same logic......
It can therefore be assumed that every coin offered on the Great Collections website that is not CAC stickered was submitted and failed, as GC gives consignors the opportunity to have their coins submitted to CAC right on the consignment form and even gives the consignor the option to let GC decide at their discretion to submit to CAC prior to auctioning them. Now what consignor in his/her right mind wouldn't spend a few extra dollars to do this, right Steve?
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
It can therefore be assumed that every coin offered on the Great Collections website that is not CAC stickered was submitted and failed, as GC gives consignors the opportunity to have their coins submitted to CAC right on the consignment form and even gives the consignor the option to let GC decide at their discretion to submit to CAC prior to auctioning them. Now what consignor in his/her right mind wouldn't spend a few extra dollars to do this, right Steve?
What you are missing is if one submits coins to CMQ, afterwards they can be quickly turned over to Stack'sBowers for auction. With Great Collections, the coins need to be sent by GC from the West Coast to the East Coast and then back which represents a delay in consignors receiving funds especially during periods when CAC (or CACG) did not accept new submissions.
<<< What you are missing is if one submits coins to CMQ, afterwards they can be quickly turned over to Stack'sBowers for auction. With Great Collections, the coins need to be sent by GC from the West Coast to the East Coast and then back which represents a delay in consignors receiving funds especially during periods when CAC (or CACG) did not accept new submissions. >>>
Ahhhhh.....thanks for setting me straight. So it's those several extra days in transit to and from CAC that makes all the difference, now I understand. How could I have overlooked that?
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
Not days, weeks, each way. And then there is the CAC queue.
Weeks in transit, each way? Is GC shipping them by conestoga wagon?
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
I’ve been out since 3 pm eastern, hence my delay in responding.
Yes, if I see a coin on GC (or Heritage, DLRC, Stacks, etc.) valued at high three figures or higher without a CAC sticker, I, and many others, will assume it failed, and will not bid on that coin. I fully agree that coin may possibly have NEVER been sent to CAC, AND I agree that I could be missing out on a coin that if CAC were to examine it would be problem free and solid for the grade! But my point is that because I (and others) choose to not take that risk, there WILL BE fewer bidders!!!
What is the impact on the consignor? I can say this - when I see a coin I need for my high ranked Registry sets in the grade I want, with a CAC sticker, AND with the eye appeal I like, I bid VERY aggressively! In many cases I “overpay”. Is that silly and wasteful? Probably. My point is that coins without a CAC sticker will not get my high bids, and there are other collectors like me willing to pay up that will also not bid.
So my suggestion is clear - if you are selling coins, consider spending just a few dollars extra per coin to attract a few extra bidders like me. I believe the end result will be higher than the cost of the sticker! See my next point:
OK, here’s opening a can of worms, and I’ll get tomatoes thrown at me, but I’ll say what some think: Perhaps some of the collectors who choose not to submit their coins to CAC take that position because they fear a lot of their coins will fail, and they want to avoid that psychological rejection. Yes, many rationalize their decision that they’ll send it to CAC down the road, or they want to minimize the risk of shipping loss, or they know their coins and they’ll sell them at the same pricing as coins with CAC stickers. Fine and good. But I believe my theory, is they won’t send their coins for stickering because they’re afraid their coins will fail to sticker!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I did a search on Stacks current auction on January 10, 2024 Collectors Choice Online Auction and zero coins were found with CMQ stickers. There were 57 with CAC stickers. Stacks has a search box under COIN PROPERTY for CAC Green, Star & Plus and Stacks has not upgraded their program to include CMQ in the search box. There does not appear to be much cooperation between Stacks and CMQ to get the new sticker company off the ground. The press release for Stack’s Bowers Galleries Partners with David Hall to Launch Collectible Market Qualified (CMQ) was in September 2023.
Ha! Now THAT’S silly, isn’t it?
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Have you sent any coins to CAC?
Very well articulated, Steve.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Many. Transit time each way is three days, on average.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
That's impressive - you've avoided the bottlenecks that others have experienced.
Well you know what happens when you assume. You might miss out on some great coins.
Will CMQ standards be similar to PCGS given David Halll involvement ?
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
That's EXACTLY what I said above! Please read my post:
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Right. So maybe you shouldn't make that assumption.
His point was "I (and others) choose to not take that risk."
I did receive the images, but my coin is still not showing in the coin look-up.
And he was very clear on that - with eyes wide open, he chooses not to take that risk.
Some people have a much higher risk tolerance than others. And everyone should do what works for them, without pushing their way of doing things on others. I haven't seen him say "So maybe you should make that assumption."
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
That's an assumption I want to make, since I choose to not take the risk of buying a coin that failed. Coins that fail, fail for a reason, and I choose for my collection to minimize having those coins. I'm not as expert as JA and his team. Maybe you are, and if so, congratulations. Or maybe you don't mind having coins in your collection that JA and his team determine have issues, including not being solid for the grade, that the TPG's don't object to. There's no right or wrong, just personal choice.
Enjoy the hobby with what you choose to collect.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Steve: I am one of the others you referred to, especially when buying MS gold. The logic you articulated is spot on for me. As a matter of fact when I'm on Heritage or GC, my filters are set for Denomination/PCGS/CAC. 90% of the time I am totally blind to other inventory up for auction, right or wrong. Recently I have changed my filters slightly to ensure I am viewing CACG .
Jake
I use the filters too on all sites I search every night. And you and I are not the only two that choose not to bid on coins above a certain value that are eligible for CAC stickers that don't have CAC stickers. As I've said several times, all that means are fewer serious buyers for unstickered coins! Just think how little it cost to get the stickers for coins that merit them!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I also won’t bid on a modestly priced coin without a sticker for the reasons Steve has previously stated. I also realize that some of these coins may not have been submitted to CAC but on the other hand I’m going to assume that most have.
Oh boy.
Yet another "here's my opinion" service....joy. I'm underwhelmed.
USAF (Ret) 1974 - 1994 - The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. Remembering RickO, a brother in arms.
As an FYI, I submitted three coins to CMQ as an experiment of sorts. Two with gold CACs and one with a green CAC. I will post the results when they are reviewed, hopefully by the end of this week.
Tim
we can get this thread to 1000 posts, together as a team
+1
I'm thinking of submitting these hoping for a gold CMQ or two:
Your hobby is supposed to be your therapy, not the reason you need it.
I agree that if anything, gold coins that merit CAC stickers probably have a greater chance of having an increased market value, especially since CAC is tough on gold coins, presumably due to “surface treatments” unacceptable to CAC but acceptable to PCGS and NGC.
But if I were consigning coins to a Stacks auction, whether the coins had CAC stickers or not, I would make the consignment of each coin contingent upon if the coin got a CMQ sticker or not. Unlike submitting a coin to CAC where there are costs and slight risks of round trip shipping, along with the extra time of round trip shipping, once Stacks has the coins in hand, those three disadvantages don’t apply to CMQ stickering, since they just bring the coins down the “Hall” (lol). Because of that ease and low cost of applying for CMQ’s once Stacks has the coins anyway, as a potential buyer of a Stacks lot, I’d be concerned if the coin I wanted to bid on did NOT have a CMQ!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Here’s an odd question based on my comment just above. What if I’m very interested in bidding on a coin without a CMQ in a Stacks auction, and I call Stacks to speak with one of their Numismatists to get the coin in their hand (as I typically do anyway to ask a couple of questions). I then say that I’ll pay the nominal fee to see if the coin would get a CMQ. Naturally, to actually apply the sticker they would need the permission of the consignor, but my reason for paying the fee would be to find out before I place a bid on that coin if there was a “problem” with that coin if it would fail getting a CMQ?
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Steve…you have outdone yourself with this one
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
That would be nice but I know they would not because they emphasize that while they have common ownership, they are two separate operations and they probably want to keep it that way. Plus I surmise that it would complicate operations tremendously.
You may very well be right, but even though they are different operations, when one consigns a coin to Stacks, and "checks the box", Stacks Auctions gives the coin to CMQ stickering. This is no different. I don't believe logistics is the issue. The true issue is a policy issue, having a potential bidder paying the fee to get CMQ's opinion, even if it's agreed not to apply the sticker if it passes, unless the consignor agrees. And if they did allow this, and I did indeed pay the fee, I would insist that they just give me the opinion, but if it passes, since I'm paying the fee, absolutely do NOT apply the sticker, since I don't want other bidders knowing it has a CMQ.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
To simplify the seller's negotiations with Stacks, my suggestion would be to first submit the coins to CMQ. Have CMQ make an offer to purchase all the coins. Then decide whether to put the coins at auction or sell them outright to CMQ or have the coins that do not CMQ returned.
I would insist that they just give me the opinion, but if it passes, since I'm paying the fee, absolutely do NOT apply the sticker, since I don't want other bidders knowing it has a CMQ.
I'm so glad you and I don't bid on the same coins.
You haven't thought through the logistics issues then. First, all of the stickering happens at the CA location, but they have locations around the country and world. I believe that the coins are not always necessarily at the CA location although I could be wrong. The website gives me the impression that they make coin auctions viewable in person at the other locations and probably at big coin shows. Second, they have an established workflow where all of the auction items are (I'm guessing) stored and secured in one location in a neat orderly fashion. Now you're grabbing select pieces and removing them from that location taking them to another, and then returning them. It doesn't sound like a lot but it introduces a lot of opportunity to misplace or lose items. Third, there are issues if you ask for an evaluation on Monday and while it's in CMQ process, another bidder asks for the same service on the same item. Then there are timing issues and re-imaging coins that pass to show the slab with sticker. Not that some or all of these couldn't be handled, but it adds a lot of complexity and risk for what is probably very minimal return.
What I would love is that after you win an auction, you have the option to have items reviewed for CMQ before they send it to you.
Most likely that can be done. GC and Heritage have sent coins to CAC for me.
After the auction? It's easy for them to do it before. It's a little disruptive to do it after an auction when they are furiously packing everything up waiting to ship it, and then does CAC return the coin directly to you or back to HA/GC, at which point they have to turn around and ship it to you?
My understanding, and I could very well be wrong, is that while coins to be consigned to Stacks can initially be given/shipped to any of their locations, for US auctions, they do indeed end up in one location - California. I know for a fact that from California ALL coins in an auction may first be shipped to NY for viewing, and then shipped once more to a final destination, like Baltimore, where they can be viewed at the Whitman show, and then all returned back to California for shipping to the high bidders. i just bought a coin from that Whitman auction, and when I called California in advance of the auction to speak with a Stacks numismatist, they told me the coins had been shipped to NY from California, before ultimately heading to Baltimore, and then back to California. As such, i spoke to their NY numismatist, who got the coin in hand. As such, the main point you make doesn't hold up, since presumably the CMQ analysis, even by the consignor, would/can be done when the coin is initially in that central location in California.
Regarding Disney's suggestion of actually buying the coin at auction and only then paying the fee and finding out if it fails!!! Would I buy a problem coin without knowing what the problem was? Maybe yes, maybe no, obviously depending on the problem. Speaking only for myself, I would want to know if and what the problem is BEFORE I bid on a coin, NOT after I paid for it in an auction!.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
You ignored the other points I made which are not small.
One thing I didn't mention is the optics of an auction company saying, "We're auctioning a bunch of items for you to bid on and they are all amazing and wonderful. But for an extra fee we'll give you an expert evaluation, but only to those people who pay for it."
Yes, I ignored your other point BECAUSE it made sense, lol.
FYI, firms like Stacks and most others will accept for consignment virtually ANY straight graded coin, no matter how much of a dog it is, no matter if the eye appeal is ugly, no matter if the auction house thinks the coin might be overgraded. So this last point does not hold water! it's for THAT VERY reason that CAC stickering has grown to such a great demand (not that there aren't plenty of CAC stickered coins that don't have the eye appeal collectors want) .
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
That's how they keep getting strong bids.
I am wondering if the lack of a CMQ sticker matters that much as you Steve have said yourself that you don’t hold much regard for the value of their opinion
So does GC remove all CMQ stickers still, or was that a one time thing just to piss somebody off?
That was discussed on another thread and
@ianrussell said:
We do not state anywhere that we accept CMQ stickers on coins. And I do agree with you, that it would be better if we reached out to the consignor first, so we are going to change our policy about this.
The more the merrier as long as it has a CAC.
HOWEVER, in all seriousness, CAC is known for stickering some coins that don't appear to be eye appealing. I wonder if those coins would be rejected by CMQ?