Branch mint proof Morgan?
logger7
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A dealer who runs a small shop in southern NH showed me his 1884-O Morgan dollar last week that he swears is a proof. I should have taken a photo of it. It really did look like a spectacularly struck proof coin but I'm not knowledgeable on these. Apparently they are as rare as hen's teeth and did not see any auction records. He also had a 1916 SL quarter with a satiny look. Both coins he said he doesn't trust grading services to handle safely so he says he will fly down when he's ready to have them graded.
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OK.
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Probably counterfeit, if the Morgan is real, it would be PL.
No wonder he doesn’t want to submit it.
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More than likely that Morgan is a DMPL (or nice PL). Can't help with the 1916 SLQ. I suspect he knows exactly what he has and that is why he has not sent them to the grading services. Or maybe he has in the past and is living in la-la land.
So just how many proof Morgan dollars did the New Orleans mint strike in 1884.
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Let me get this straight a coin dealer says he" doesn't trust grading services to handle safely", and you believe that nonsensical statement? To me the coin dealer just lost all credibility with that statement, therefore I wouldn't trust anything else that he stated.
Sounds more like he didn't trust shipping then since he was going to fly down with them.
Some people believe in "branch mint proofs". Others do not. Roger Burdette was convincing on the fact that there is no such thing in part, IIRC, because the branch mints lacked the equipment to strike them.
And yet here we are
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1879-o-1-bm/7345
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1883-o-1-bm/7346
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1893-cc-1-bm/7347
Mike
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So let me get this straight he doesn't trust registered mail, a dealer saying this. So the dealer isn't shipping anything to any client nor receiving anything, not much of a dealer imo. So he basically either drives his coins to his clients or drives to pick them up. Boy he must have a lot of time and money not trusting registered mail or usps priority insured mail. Come on give me a break. And to me he still has zero credibility of you are correct with your interpretation, and maybe you are right.
If someone who could make a clear determination on the 84-o Morgan and the 1916 SL quarter is in southern NH, the dealer is Ron of Colonial Coin near Keene. I hadn't been in the shop for over 10 years and decided while in the area to stop to see what he had, and the Morgan he's had for a long time. He thought one of the services had "switched" a coin or two on him which I find strange.
I don't know anything about branch mint proofs. I have a few PL Morgan's that do look like proofs but I would swear they are NOT branch mint proofs. The big giveaway on a proof is the wire rim and squared off denticles. Why would someone want to pass off a DMPL or PL Morgan as a proof?
Profit is the only motive I can think of. If that's the case it would need to be certified. Otherwise it should be considered as a PL or DMPL with a value consistent with its grade.
Without images this thread really goes knowhere.
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That’s what I was thinking. To him they are special, and he’s got a good story, but doesn’t really want to know the truth.
If he doesn’t trust shipping or is fearful of coins getting switched, he could attend a major show and do walk-through grading.
As I said, some people believe in them, others don't. But, to Roger's point, if you don't have a medal press, the best you can get is "proof-like". You can't strike true proofs without the equipment.
I have nothing to say to the dealer mentioned in the OP except "Have a nice day."
That said, there are strange and wonderful things out there. I once saw a 1799 Dollar that I would certify as a Proof if I were still certifying coins. Polished fields on the dies and so well struck that the obverse stars have pointy nipples on them. Never saw stars like that on any other Bust Dollar. Don't think that the Philadelphia Mint had a dedicated "medal press" at that time, but it could have been done with care on the large screw press.
Branch mints can certainly made proof coins if all that is required is the necessary dies. They certainly had the capability, in my opinion, to up the tonnage of pressure on the striking. Carson City press had and still has that capability and they are running in at much less pressure today to preserve the press. At least this was true when I last talked with Bob Nylen and coiner Ken, at the Mint in CC. That was probably 5 or more years ago.
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I wouldn’t put too much faith in Walter Breen 2.0.
Warren Mills' associates from RCNH have been in that shop and very likely saw the coin in question. Ron may be thinking that if it really is a branch mint proof it is worth six figures, etc., and that he can't trust people with a vested interest, but honesty and trust are everything in this business. If he has been told by someone of sufficient caliber it is not what he thinks it is keeping the possibility alive is just questionable.
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I believe there were 1884-0 Die trials...with different metal and writing on the edge.
Free Trial
I had looked up some stuff on the branch mint proof Morgans (BMPM) years (plus) ago when doing some collecting of Morgans but not proofs. Today it is a little easier to gather up information with all the internet stuff. So here is some of it.
At least of couple of references will list the BMPM as a category I, II, III (and Wayne Miller had a IV, V). In short the Cat I is documented and verified. Cat II is not documented but verified. Cat III is not documented and not verified but maybe possibly.
See HIghfill / Miller and Breen.
The Cat I dates are 1879 O, 1883 O, 1893 CC and the 1921 S (Zerbe). I did not attempt to track down any of the documentation / documents. For the 1879 O it is stated in Highfill / Miller and Breen that these were struck Feb 20, 1879 and for the reopening of the N.O. mint and first Morgan's struck there. 12 pieces. Also states that this is the only BMPM that was struck with separate dies (VAM). Does this still hold today? The 1883 O it is stated as less known about when and why but that "The Superintendent of the New Orleans Mint called them proofs in AJN, 1884, p. 46." Again 12 pieces. 1893 CC states considerable documentation and for the closing of the CC mint being last issues from this branch. And one report was again 12 pieces.
One reference: https://www.pcgs.com/books/breen-proofs/Chapter13
The above are listed in PCGS and NGC pop reports as proof (except the 1921 S which pcgs has as a SP and ngc did not find).
The other dates that might be listed as a BMPM are category II. I think if a Cat III, then not verified and would not be slabbed. But some were Cat III and then slabbed. I am sure there are different opinions on some Cat II and Cat III. Also in reading I found that some were stated by one author as proof (Cat II) and another as don't know (Cat III) or thought was regular issue.
I do not see any other dates in the pcgs population report as BMPM or SP. Not sure if this is due to them not accepting them or if they simple have gone to ngc for certification. NGC list the other dates as SP and not proof. Here are the two pop reports for proof / SP Morgans (pcgs need to click to get the SP).
https://www.pcgs.com/pop/detail/morgan-dollar-1878-1921/744?ccid=0&t=3&p=PR
https://www.ngccoin.com/census/united-states/dollars/49/
From Heritage there is more information in some of their auction catalogs. Here is just one auction but several others can be found. Copied part of the auction write up below but see link(s) for complete listing.
From NNP and Heritage ANA august 2013:
1879 O
https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/auctionlots?AucCoId=8&AuctionId=33&page=596
"The 1879-0 branch mint proof Dollar is undoubtedly one of the best known of all branch mint proofs. The existence of these coins has been known since 1880 or so, but they were largely forgotten until rediscovered more than 25 years ago. Allegedly twelve proofs were struck on February 20, 1879 to commemorate the reopening of the mint after being shut down in 1861. Today only four pieces are known. This is the #1 specimen as listed in Wayne Miller's second edition of his Morgan and Peace Dollar Textbook, page 219."
The 1 879-0 is unique among branch mint proof dollars in that it was struck from dies not listed in VAM and not used on regular production coins. This piece is mostly brilliant, with slight hints of champagne-gold and lavender toning. The deeply mirrored fields are indistinguishable from a regular Philadelphia proof of this year. The devices are nicely frosted and provide a noticeable contrast against the deep reflectivity in the fields. Eye appeal is outstanding.
1883 CC
https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/auctionlots?AucCoId=8&AuctionId=33&page=600
I notice the link does not always go to the correct page so might need to scroll up / down a little to get there.
1883-CC PR65 Cameo NGC. Only two examples of the branch mint 1 883-CC dollar are known today, and only two were believed to have struck by the Chapmans, as mentioned in their June 1 889 auction. In that sale, it was simply stated: "1 883 Carson City mint. Brilliant proof. Extremely rare." This little-known but important auction had a run of five branch mint proof dollars: 1 883-0, 1 883-CC, 1 884-0, 1 884-CC, and 1 885-0. The 1 883-CC proof dollar brought $4 at a time when a circulation-strike example was worth approximately half that amount.
In 1995 we had the opportunity to examine eight branch mint proof dollars in the Anita Maxwell Trust. The opportunity to research these coins was irresistible and an article was subsequently published in Coin World with diagnostics of each coin from the Trust. This is the coin from that historic 1995 auction. At that time we noted seven obverse markers and six on the reverse. Several die scratches are noted in the article. What is perhaps most easily seen and telling for a branch mint proof dollar is the lack of complete die polish between closely set design elements. This is especially noticeable on this coin below the 18 in the date and behind the eagle's neck and wing. Numerous crisscrossing die polish lines were also not completely polished out of the die, most notably above the field between the eagle's left (facing) wing and neck, and another area of pronounced die striations outline the left (facing) wing. These are significant because all branch mint proofs show such incomplete areas of die polish, not the same ones as seen here obviously, but predictably they are present in the close spaces between design elements. We believe this is because branch mint personnel were unfamiliar with exactly how proofs were made. They knew of them, and may have seen them, but were not accustomed to producing proof coinage such as that seen from the Philadelphia Mint. Nevertheless, great care was taken to produce a deeply reflective, high-quality coin.
The physical description of this piece bears repeating here, as nothing has changed on the coin since 1995:
"The fields have an unfathomably deep reflectivity that we can remember only seeing on proof strikings. There are also numerous tiny lint marks in the fields. Their presence suggests that the dies were wiped with a cloth prior to striking, and static electricity caused minute pieces of lint to adhere to the dies, and the impression of these were in turn imparted to the coin. This is not evidence of a proof striking per se, but it does suggest that an unusual degree of care was used to produce this coin. Lint marks such as seen on this coin are common to proof strikings, but are usually not seen on business strikes. The design elements are also completely brought up. Every bit of hair detail over Liberty's ear is fully defined on this coin as well as individuated feather detail on the eagle. The interior portions of each side are mostly brilliant with a light golden-brown patina clinging to the peripheries."
1884 CC
https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/auctionlots?AucCoId=8&AuctionId=33&page=603
Again I noticed the link may not go to the correct page so might need to scroll up/down a little to get there.
1884-CC PR66 Cameo NGC. In Wayne Miller's book on
Morgan and Peace dollars, he classifies branch mint proofs into five categories. The 1884-CC is a Class III coin, along with the 1881O and the 1884-0, meaning Miller considered the coins possible branch mint proofs, but he had some doubts about their proof status. However, Miller examined the 1884-CC that he based this evalua¬ tion on in 1973, at a time when he admits he was not sufficiently knowledgeable to make a definitive determination. After examining two examples of the 1 884-CC branch mint proof dollars in our sales, we believe the 1 884-CC should be promoted to Class II strikings, i.e., "unauthorized but definite branch mint proofs," as they display all the diagnostic qualities of these issues.
Very little is known about the origin and purpose for striking the 1884-CC branch mint proof dollar. What we do know is what can be derived from direct observation of the coin itself. The fields are deeply mirrored, the striking details extremely sharp throughout (even though not struck by a hydraulic press), and the rims squared off and crisp. The fields are extraordinarily clean and show several tiny lint marks (visible with strong magnification), which indicates the dies had been wiped with a cloth prior to striking and several pieces of lint adhered to the die from static electricity (a common practice for striking proofs). A small area of heavy die polish is also seen in front of Liberty's eye, indicating special preparation of the die prior to striking. Brilliant throughout, the devices are also heavily frosted which gives the coin a pronounced cameo appearance.
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