Is WINGS still in business?

Crusty

I’m newer to foreign coins and I am wondering if the company WINGS is still reviewing coins? If so what has been your experience with them? Do you need to be a member? How long does the process take? Was it a worthwhile experience? How does the market treat coins that have been approved by them. Any and all advice would be appreciated.

Boosibri

Market doesn’t care about WINGS. I don’t think they are still operating but Lance Zchor is still an active dealer.

Crusty

@Boosibri Thanks for the information. Why do you think it failed to gain traction in the market compared to CAC with US coins? Was it because they stickered coins that were sub standard or because the foreign coin collector in general does not care as much about certification?

Exbrit

Probably because most world collectors, other than Americans, don’t really care for TPGs or stickers at all. Some are coming around, but the majority have yet to take the plunge.

pruebas

CAC succeeded because they made a market in coins they stickered. The others did not.

Opinions are cheap and valued as such. Money talks.

Sapyx

The WINGS website is still operational. But as noted above, there's very little market for it.

In America, the market for WINGS is small compared to CAC because the basic underlying axiom of the CAC market (US coins) simply isn't true for world coins, for the most part: that a single increment in grade can generate a huge increase in market value. If there's a chance that your MS66-slabbed US coin is actually an MS67, then it's usually worth paying CAC for their opinion that it might be a good candidate for a resubmission. But why go to all the trouble of slabbing a world coin as MS66, submitting it to WINGS, then resubmitting it to the TPG (maybe several times) in the hopes of an upgrade to MS67, if there's virtually no difference in price between MS66 and MS67?

In terms of the outside-the-US market, TPGs as a concept are still largely shunned by collectors as being a "weird American thing". And if TPGs aren't doing well, then FPGs (Fourth Party Grading companies, like CAC and WINGS) are going to do even worse.

MrEureka

@Sapyx said:

In terms of the outside-the-US market, TPGs as a concept are still largely shunned by collectors as being a "weird American thing".

That’s not really true anymore. One notable example is China, where slabs are essential. Another is the internet, where anyone selling high end coins to a global marketplace almost has no choice but to embrace slabs.

neildrobertson

@Sapyx said:
In terms of the outside-the-US market, TPGs as a concept are still largely shunned by collectors as being a "weird American thing". And if TPGs aren't doing well, then FPGs (Fourth Party Grading companies, like CAC and WINGS) are going to do even worse.

That is and has been actively changing in German coins. Each year a larger percentage of auctioned coins are greater. I know several German dealers I buy from that will still criticize slabs, but even they have learned taking advantage of them is a profitable endeavor.

Clio

@Crusty said:
@Boosibri Thanks for the information. Why do you think it failed to gain traction in the market compared to CAC with US coins? Was it because they stickered coins that were sub standard or because the foreign coin collector in general does not care as much about certification?

CAC has a bid to back their stickering. So, they are willing to buy whatever they sticker for a published price. As others have said CAC put their money where their mouth is. CAC was also started by someone who founded/co-founded both the leading TPGs. There's a rock-solid reputation there to back up his opinions on coins.

In addition to all of that, US coins are far more likely to have large spreads between grades where the sticker creates additional interest in a coin which could be $300 in 66 and $3,000 in 67. Those spreads are far scarcer in Non-US coinage.

Wings also stickers from a different standard. Their gold stickers aren't just for under graded coins. Coins get the gold sticker for exceptional eye appeal which could mean much different things to different people. This means it's heavily based on personal preference and not something you could potentially benefit from on a resubmission.

Jabshier

On CAC’s website John Albanese once had it on his website in future they planned to include world coins … But that was long ago , problem is world coins are to vast so many countries we all are collecting different stuff the market would be all over the place not to mention (some world coins prices are already surpassed prices being paid for certain US coins in price and grade wise) … as where US coins is pretty standard weather it’s Morgan dollars , or walkers , down to 2 cents and colonial coinage there’s enough back log cataloging and graded coins out in market to back up a healthy market in US coin collecting CAC fit perfectly right in the middle or all market …. John Albanese green bean coins that he felt were solid for the grade but in “upper tier” for that grade it may upgrade or it might now however the whole point of green bean was that John Albanese beaned coins that he would buy outright if they were to pop up in auctions or so on (from what I was told that’s why he really started CAC) …. Gold bean was different story

I just can’t see it being done to world coins too many pathways to go down in world coin sectors

Elmhurst

@MrEureka said:

@Sapyx said:

In terms of the outside-the-US market, TPGs as a concept are still largely shunned by collectors as being a "weird American thing".

That’s not really true anymore. One notable example is China, where slabs are essential. Another is the internet, where anyone selling high end coins to a global marketplace almost has no choice but to embrace slabs.

Agree, if you have any decent Asian coins to sell, get them slabbed and they will move. This includes the British empire issues.

bidask

Two things :

1) John Dannreuther still plans to sticker world coins last I heard.
2) ….”those spreads are far scarcer in non US coinage….”

Maybe it shouldn’t be 🤓

RWM

For what it is worth, I have only purchased one coin that had a wings sticker on it. I personally thought the coin was over graded and removed the sticker. The other pieces I have in the same grade are clearly superior examples which made it standout even more and not in the way it should.

Exbrit

I had a couple and both were A level coins. I was very happy with them. As far as the stickers, they did not add a premium, but it was nice to say that they were stickered which hopefully made them stand out in the sale if compared to an equally nice example.

Crusty

Thanks for the input guys. I reached out to wings via email and have not heard back. I may submit a box of 20 and see what happens. I know it won’t add value. But having another set of eyes that has experience in foreign would not hurt. I want to see how my foreign eye is doing so far since I’m new to it.

pruebas

@Crusty said:
I reached out to wings via email and have not heard back.

Red flag? At least they don't have your coins yet.

RSP

Give the man a break!!! You expect a response within the hour at the end of the day...a day which we are intimately involved with a hurricane no less?

Lance Tchor is a very reputable dealer.

coinkat

Take a deep breath... Use the grading skills you have and look at those coins that have already been graded and make a decision. Are these decent coins? These coins must have some redeeming look... otherwise you would not have taken the plunge and bought them. While we all make mistakes, learn from them. And your current view in connection certain coins - those that you plan to send to wings- may be a reasonable view. It is not unreasonable to simply stand up to the process if you have confidence in your grading abilities.

MrEureka

@Crusty said:
Thanks for the input guys. I reached out to wings via email and have not heard back. I may submit a box of 20 and see what happens. I know it won’t add value. But having another set of eyes that has experience in foreign would not hurt. I want to see how my foreign eye is doing so far since I’m new to it.

I’m not convinced that you can learn much from that exercise without getting some feedback on why they did or didn’t sticker each coin.

jt88

@MrEureka said:

@Sapyx said:

In terms of the outside-the-US market, TPGs as a concept are still largely shunned by collectors as being a "weird American thing".

That’s not really true anymore. One notable example is China, where slabs are essential. Another is the internet, where anyone selling high end coins to a global marketplace almost has no choice but to embrace slabs.

I agree. You can check PCGS grading time for wold coin is longer than US coin.

Crusty

@MrEureka said:

@Crusty said:
Thanks for the input guys. I reached out to wings via email and have not heard back. I may submit a box of 20 and see what happens. I know it won’t add value. But having another set of eyes that has experience in foreign would not hurt. I want to see how my foreign eye is doing so far since I’m new to it.

I’m not convinced that you can learn much from that exercise without getting some feedback on why they did or didn’t sticker each coin.

I have since gotten in touch with Lance and he gave me a list of shows he will be attending. I’ve decided if I’m going to get my coins reviewed, I am going to do it in person.

@coinkat said:
Take a deep breath... Use the grading skills you have and look at those coins that have already been graded and make a decision. Are these decent coins? These coins must have some redeeming look... otherwise you would not have taken the plunge and bought them. While we all make mistakes, learn from them. And your current view in connection certain coins - those that you plan to send to wings- may be a reasonable view. It is not unreasonable to simply stand up to the process if you have confidence in your grading abilities.

I know how to grade Seated dollars all day long. Outside of that series/type I am not as confident. I am studying as I add graded examples. I have chosen about 40 raw coins that I purchased over the past year and I plan to get them graded. That should give me a good idea of how my foreign eye is doing.

coinkat

I would suggest more can be learned by looking at various graded coins within a series. Some will be better than others and you will quickly see which opinions are better. But this comes with establishing a benchmark for any series. Factors such as quality of the strike- knowing what dates exist in a reasonable quantity so there are valid comparisons which can be made-And this is only a sub section as there are those coins that really are tough in that the graded population is small... as in very small. In those instances, the question really is not solely about grading... quality for the grade... but something more basic. How many opportunities will I have to own this coin?

And while having standards is a optimum, the real question goes beyond that. At what does one sacrifice ownership of rarity at the expense/risk of never owning the rarity at all?

Bob13

I know how to grade Seated dollars all day long. Outside of that series/type I am not as confident. I am studying as I add graded examples. I have chosen about 40 raw coins that I purchased over the past year and I plan to get them graded. That should give me a good idea of how my foreign eye is doing.

@Crusty - first off, welcome to the dark side! I’ve seen your seated dollars on the Lite side. I think those coins (depending on what world you collect) will serve you well. Soooo many world coins have been cleaned or messed with - just like your seated dollars! But, on the world side there are 2 problems:

• fewer safety nets (fewer coins are slabbed, no true CAC equivalent)
• Even a lot of slabbed coins have been cleaned in the past.

Again, these problems will be more of an issue with older coins (pre 1800s or so) and less with more modern issues.

So, what are you finding yourself interested in?

Finally, the forum members have some tremendous knowledge and can give you some good feedback.

Again, welcome to the dark side!

Crusty

Coinkat- At this point in my collecting journey. I have no interest in owning a rare coin that has problems. I don’t want 400 year old blast white silver coins. If given the choice I’d rather own a coin that has some originality to it, regardless or rarity.

As far as grading goes. Your advice is prudent. But I am not specializing in anyone series. I am just finding coins that are as original as possible that I find attractive and buying them. In the last stacks auctionI bought 10 coins. 9 or which are the only ones graded at pcgs. 7 of them don’t have a single listing on eBay. It’s hard to judge/ compare the grades in these situations. I was fortunate to meet a couple of world collectors that have agreed to help me along the way. I think these experienced collectors will be invaluable to me as I go deeper down this path.

Crusty

@Bob13

I appreciate your kind words regarding my seated dollars. And yes, I totally agree that the same problems that plague the SLD series seem to also plague the old foreign silver coins.

I have been sharing coins under the name seated_crust_bucket on instagram. I will try to get some pics and share with you here.

Crusty

coinkat

@Crusty

I should have made a comment earlier in this thread about SLD- I like the series too- And these are so hard to find with the look. And because of the experience you have with this series, it really carries over to help with grading even for world crowns. I looked at the images you posted- terrific coins. Not sold yet on the 1847 Victorian crown... You will really enjoy the path in which you have chose to travel. Collecting World coins really provides that feeling of entering the old world through a new frontier

Bob13

@Crusty - based on the images above and your IG, I think you are doing pretty good! That Scottish Ryal looks cool to me.

Jabshier

@Crusty once you go down pathway of world coins it becomes additive that all you’ll want to study and collect …That was my case I made the decision to sell off my entire US coin collection 15 years ago made the switch to German coins since my heritage was traced back to Baden Germany … Since then I have NOT looked back on US coins nor have I purchased any US coins since …. “World Coins-VS-US coins” I’m not going to get into that too deep if I were I would be better off writing a book on the subject …. You find there are many world coins and medals and pattern trial strikes and so on with low low mintages compared to the (Over hyped high US coin market) they call “rare coin market” nah ! Most US coins are NOT rare at all they were plentiful … only few US coins are truly rare… world coins really make you study and study about mint that made them and history of the era the coin was struck in…. buy books and catalogs if you can (you’ll find some books and catalogs are pretty pricey and hard to find, as other are reasonably priced) …

OGDan

@Crusty said:
I have been sharing coins under the name seated_crust_bucket on instagram. I will try to get some pics and share with you here.

I guessed that account was you here, and sure enough you confirmed it. I've enjoyed your posts there.

I'm "chopmarkedcoins" on IG.