Another "I think this is a 1909 VDB Matte Proof Lincoln Cent" thread
HolyHackJack
Posts: 11 ✭
Hey everyone,
First off, I promise as someone writing a 'do I have one of these?' posts, that this is not a low effort post and I have provided everything I possibly can down below in the form of what I've done and what I can show/prove.
In reality, I have 4 coins that I believe to be LMPCs (1909 VDB, 1909, and 2x 1910) as I have over MANY hours compared them to a copy of Kevin Flynn's book (would recommend btw) as well as every other thread or discussion I was able to locate. Sadly a lot of the older posts which seemed to be of true value no longer has the pictures hosted. Since they won't load, all I have is the discussion, so there is SOME small bit of imagination I've had to use one one or two points.
With that said - everything below is simply from the diagnostics listed in Kevin Flynn's book (which I got on Ebay here), and a few from https://www.lincolncentcollection.com/ and anything that is not widely accepted is not going to be included as to not waste any more time of anyone reading this. If this one does indeed check out, then I'll edit together and post the other 3 contenders I have and what evidence I have to support them.
Ok, here we go!
First, here's a couple of different takes of the obverse, and a few of the reverse . There are multiple provided here simply due to the fact that, as stated above, lighting and angle change the appearance more than any coin I've ever seen.
Here are a few of the rim.
**Rim + die chip at 3 o'clock on the reverse
Last, but not least -- the diagnostics:
OBVERSE
REVERSE
Also, there's a link to a Youtube video of the coin to show luster and surface as this is insanely difficult to capture in it's entirety on still-frame alone as it looks different from every which way of angle you examine it.
I THINK that is all of it, and I hope I didn't lave anything out.
Thanks for taking the time to look and provide input. I know it's a long-shot, but worst case scenario I have a 1909 VDB I'd be thrilled about either way.
Have a great rest of your weekend, all!
Comments
Your coin bears no resemblance to a Proof. The strike falls woefully short and the edges are too rounded for a Proof. Enjoy the coin for what it is.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Yeah, I thought about that. I posted mine because it resembles the example given in Flynn's book here --
The edge of yours doesn’t appear to be nearly as smooth as either of the ones you posted from Mr. Flynn’s book. But even if it were, the rest of the coin says business strike.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I think you have some wishful thinking on some of the die markers. Die scratches don't move around. The VDB for instance did not have the clear scratch through the B. I don't see any die scratches near the nose much less in the right place and shape.
Given the rounded rims and mundane strike, even looking for die markers is unnecessary. This is an easy call. Circulation strike.
I'm sorry, but I agree with @MFeld. Your 1909 VDB Lincoln Cent is not a MPL. The rims are a dead giveaway as well as the strike characteristics. The first and second diagnostic photos you show, while close are not the same as those diagramed in the book you reference. I wish you well on your hunt.
I cannot get your pictures to load. I can say with almost certainty it is not a 1909 vdb proof. You ask how do I know. It’s because MFled said so
Martin
Does what you just said make sense to you - that a beginner such as yourself would simply find 4 matte proof Lincoln cents? How could they have any rarity or value if it were so easy for someone without any knowledge or experience to find them?
Remember when you thought you had found an Ike prototype? Did that make any more sense to you?
With respect, you are venturing far beyond your abilities and no amount of effort can make up for that. Your coin is not a match for a proof in any way. No diagnostic features or die markers are at all useful when you are unable to tell if they match.
@HolyHackJack
It seems like everyone who thinks they have the VDB Proof think the bottom edge is the one that needs to be flat. Both side and the inside rim going to the field also needs to be 90° angle sharp with no roundness.
The scratches in front of the nose needs to match exactly, not just have a series of scratches in the field by the nose.
The die scratch on the reverse, next to the M in UNUM, looks like Star Trek’s Star Fleet insignia. Again, the die scratch has to be an exact match, not just a mark in the area
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
Just because @MFeld says it is not a matte proof doesn't make it so. That being said I believe it is a regular business strike. Send all 4 that you have to our host for an expert opinion....use economy class and remember to submit a fifth one if you find it....our host is running a special..grade 4 get your fifth free!
Good luck.
I hope you won’t spend your money submitting the coins for grading. Because based on the odds, as well as your posts thus far, it’s extremely unlikely that any of the coins are Proofs. And you can get plenty of knowledgeable opinions about them for free.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
You have Mark and Robec commenting... it is as close to expert opinions are you are going to get.
Robec imaged many of MPL's back in the day and Mark... well his CV speaks for itself.
Listen to the experts bro, they know what they are talking about no sense in disputing the knowledge that has just been shared with you.
@MFeld is an expert opinion which was gifted for free.
Why would you suggest he spend money with zero chance of success, at least for that coin?
This is ridiculously bad advice. RL, I would suggest being more careful handing out opinions where others would spend money.
Clearly these are not proof strikes, but I can see how you came here to ask by the research you’ve done. But, you have been given very good information from multiple experts. I would trust them on their assessment. Do not spend money trying to submit for a proof, it will be a business strike. Though keep searching, you got some very nice pictures and you are absolutely going in the right direction researching! The more you look and research, the more it will become easy for you to start to see everything.
It seems you put a lot of time into this, so it's unfortunate that it's not going your way. But it's all an education. If you choose to accept the advice of the subject matter experts that have chimed in, you will better channel your efforts in the future.
We've all been there.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Matte proof Lincoln cents have a 'look' which for me is unmistakable. The thing I notice most when viewing matte proof Lincoln cents is the sharpness of the inner rim, for the entire circumference of the coin. I don't see that on your coin. Also, though I haven't checked my MPL book, it could be that the proof dies were used for business strikes when proof production ended, hence the die markers being present on your coin.
You certainly should listen to what Mark advises.
Perhaps I can help you as you obviously have put a lot of effort into this. Appearance of the rims and quality of strike are certainly important but sometimes requires the experienced eye to distinguish. Die scratch identification can be problematic as it varies as the die wears.
Die chips, however, are the simplest to identify. For the 1909 VDB, when you refer to the Kevin Flynn book, we are lucky to find 2 die chips on the reverse that are in the "All Die States" group which is important as this means they are on all the coins. One is to the upper right of the M and is shaped like an inverted V, the other is close to the rim between the rim and the lower wheat ear at about 7:30. (there is a typo in the book as it says 9 o'clock but the image shows it at 7:30).
Your pics attempt to show the one next to the M but it is really not there. You do not point out the other one at the rim because when I zoomed in on your pic I found that it is not there either.
If you want to study this further, just zoom in on the images that PCGS provides for the coin in the Coinfacts section.
@NewEnglandRarities the OP has done a lot of leg work on his coins. As I stated I don't believe the coin in question is a matte proof. @MFeld and myself have not seen the coins in hand....an in hand inspection on Economy class will remove any lingering doubts the OP may have and be money well spent for educational purposes IMO. Send some other coins in and the cost is less than $30 per coin. That doesn't sound like ridiculous advice to me. The OP only needs to be right once to come out far ahead....if he is wrong he can consign the coins to GC to recoup some of his $$ and gain even more experience in the hobby. Sounds like a fun project to me.
I kind of see your point. But in this case, it would basically be spending around $150 for four coin submission. I just know that throwing good money at bad never is a good idea! Just was trying to protect the OP who clearly has a passion for research and his coins, sometimes throwing more money “away” can cause a negative impact on future collecting. Researching and viewing more coins will continue the passion much more than spending $100+ and getting no return from it was I guess what I was trying to say.
Many coins need to be evaluated in hand in order to determine their status as a business strike or a Proof. The 1909-VDB cent in this thread is not one of those, however.
And I doubt that paying money to a grading service to confirm that will be of much good to
@ HolyHackJack. It's not like it would teach him how to better evaluate and compare the diagnostics of a Proof to his coin.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Many coins need to be evaluated in hand in order to determine their status as a business strike or a Proof. The 1909-VDB cent in this thread is not one of those, however.
And I doubt that paying money to a grading service to confirm that will be of any good to
@HolyHackJack. It's not like it would teach him how to better evaluate and compare the diagnostics of a Proof to his coin.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Nope
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
It would if they would put helpful stickers on the slabs.