New Cherrypicker's varieties, How long till PCGS starts attributing the new varieties?

Manorcourtman

I don't remember how long it took when the last new CPG came out till PCGS started attributing them? Anyone else curious? I contacted customer service but have not received any response. There are some very cool newly recognized varieties in the new book!

keyman64

Months is my guess.

I talked to PCGS at Pittsburgh ANA.
I had coins I hoped to submit for variety attribution. Wishful thinking, I know. You don’t know until you ask though and I was hoping to get a lucky jump on the game for the new ones that I have.

Anyway, they reached out to Steve Feltner to inquire with my question. I stopped back by the PCGS booth on Friday and was told that PCGS had not reviewed the book yet, not to mention made a determination which varieties they would bless for the registry sets. It would not be until after that when they will accept the new varieties for submission. I recall the process took months back in 2012-ish for the last edition.

Edit: I hope PCGS does not just use the CPG as their source for varieties though. There are great varieties that did not make the book because I am guessing the authors did not own examples. This is NOT the way the book should be written. There are great varieties and there are small circles of people that own them! It would not have been difficult to source the best varieties and included the best in the book. Instead, we might have to wait 11+ years for them to have a shot at correcting their mistakes of exclusion. PCGS should visit Variety Vista or CONECA to see all the significant varieties and include the right ones instead of relying on the CPG. This only does the hobby a disservice.

foodude

I asked the dealer desk last week, and here was there response:

The process to recognize newly listed variety can take some time.
Please check back with us in a couple months.

I'll likely see one of the PCGS attributor in a couple weeks if he stops by my table at the Long Beach show, which he often does.

OAKSTAR

Not sure if it would help but what about sending a picture of the CPG page and the FS number with your next submission?

Would that help?.. I don't know.

messydesk

@keyman64 said:
... There are great varieties that did not make the book because I am guessing the authors did not own examples. This is NOT the way the book should be written.

There are varieties that were supposed to have been in the book that were omitted, and not by the authors. Talk to Larry Briggs about it next time you see him at a show.

foodude

@OAKSTAR said:
Not sure if it would help but what about sending a picture of the CPG page and the FS number with your next submission?

Would that help?.. I don't know.

My email referred to above included that info.

ProofCollection

Noob question on this. How do you know which varieties PCGS officially recognizes?

yosclimber

@ProofCollection said:
Noob question on this. How do you know which varieties PCGS officially recognizes?

PCGS assigns a coin (ID) number to each variety they recognize.
Usually it is a 4 digit number for date-mint mark and Red Book "major" varieties,
and 5 digits for Die varieties.

Look on PCGS CoinFacts under the main PCGS Coin numbers (4-digit) for the date - mint mark
and Red Book variety.
For example, the half dime 1840-o no drapery, PCGS Coin # 4322:
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1840-o-h10c-no-drapery/4322
About halfway down the page on the left is a blue link "Show Related Coin and Varieties (2)"
Click on that and it will expand to show the
Major Varieties (Red Book varieties)
and
Die Varieties
In this case the FS-901 Transitional Rev No Drapery (better known as V-6 to seated half dime collectors).
Click on it to see its page, with a 5-digit Coin #:
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1840-o-h10c-fs-901-transitional-rev-no-drapery/38735

keyman64

@messydesk said:

@keyman64 said:
... There are great varieties that did not make the book because I am guessing the authors did not own examples. This is NOT the way the book should be written.

There are varieties that were supposed to have been in the book that were omitted, and not by the authors. Talk to Larry Briggs about it next time you see him at a show.

I advised on this version of the book back in 2015. As I have stated before in other threads, I still have those emails. In my view there are varieties that made the book that are less significant than ones that were left out. So, this isn’t a cutting content issue from what I can tell. Look at this variety that didn’t make the book. It’s fantastic!

This is way more significant than the 43-D/D blob sort of thing that was added. They added another Mercury Dime inverted mint mark to the book. Why? With two, why didn’t they add them all? We get it, there are a ton of different MM styles in the 1940s. Most people don’t care as far as I can tell. PCGS can’t get the attribution of the 1942-Inverted S correct. Great, let’s add more to the problem. See this thread. https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1059186/buyer-beware-the-coin-is-back-this-is-not-the-1942-inverted-s-at-gc I think Great Collections may have stepped in to pull this thing after it was listed for sale a couple of times very very long stretches of time ea h time.

Varieties are listed clearly on Variety Vista. It is not difficult to go through the list to pick out the most significant ones. PCGS should do this and not rely on whatever flawed reasoning that exists for the book. When is the next version coming out? Will it be another 11 years? The flow of information exists and this book series is not the way to handle what makes it into the complete variety registry sets. We are not living in the 1970s or 1980s anymore. Also, the photos used for the pick up points in the book are quite lacking (sometimes in quality and sometimes in quantity…and there is room). It’s sad. Look at the 1926 DDO Merc in the book. One photo of one letter. It is the most significant letter (R in Liberty) but more could have been done like the inclusion of the doubling in the feathers as noted in this article. https://www.numismaticnews.net/archive/doubled-1926-dime-found

I get it, everyone’s a critic but there are really too many issues with this CPG structure.

yosclimber

NGC VarietyPlus does not have this 1941-D RPM-001, either.
Although they do have the RPM-002 which looks more dramatic to me.
PCGS has neither; apparently they are waiting for the CPG to pick the best.
Is the RPM-002 in the new CPG?
http://www.varietyvista.com/06 Mercury Dime/RPMs 1941D.htm
https://www.ngccoin.com/variety-plus/united-states/dimes/mercury-dimes-1916-1945/?page=1

messydesk

@keyman64 said:

I get it, everyone’s a critic but there are really too many issues with this CPG structure.

One of the issues is that there are varieties that have CPG numbers that are unknown for a couple reasons. Some coins may have been given CPG numbers and not released in the book. This is the case for the 1838 FS-901a half dime (a.k.a. Valentine-10A, massively clashed V-10/FS-901). There are also coins that were shown in previous CPGs but are no longer shown due to apparent lack of collector interest. The numbers are still assigned, however. If you want a picture of 1945-S 25c FS-101, you need to look in the 5th edition or on VarietyVista. And here you thought you could sell your 5th editions.

yosclimber

V-10h

The 1838 V-10 half dime is common and has many (at least 10) discrete die states, most of which show "crumbling" or "spalling" around AMERICA.
I have seen the crumbling described as "die rust" (in a PCGS Youtube video), but I don't think that is accurate - die rust should normally affect the entire die surface and it involves pitting.
Basically a layer of the die is peeling off in small pieces.

There is even a PR-67 version (V-10e Pittman, Gardner), one of the most expensive coins in the series.

V-10i (photo by KeyVarieties)
There is an apparently terminal die state found recently with a very deep clash; only one is known.
It's pretty dramatic - you can read the date on the reverse.

Personally, I don't find the CPG very useful, so I don't own a copy.
The Red Book is already an introduction to die varieties and has the most major ones.
Then comes the CPG at the next level with more die varieties across all series.
At the most detailed level are the series specific books.
If the detailed books make a "top 100" style list, that is possibly ideal for registry sets and slab companies.

In some sense, I see the CPG as "cherry picking" from the detailed series books.
It makes it possible to buy one book for the semi-major varieties and not have to buy all the series books.
But I think web sources like NGC VarietyPlus and VarietyVista in turn replace the CPG, for free.

ProofCollection

@yosclimber said:

@ProofCollection said:
Noob question on this. How do you know which varieties PCGS officially recognizes?

PCGS assigns a coin (ID) number to each variety they recognize.
Usually it is a 4 digit number for date-mint mark and Red Book "major" varieties,
and 5 digits for Die varieties.

Look on PCGS CoinFacts under the main PCGS Coin numbers (4-digit) for the date - mint mark
and Red Book variety.
For example, the half dime 1840-o no drapery, PCGS Coin # 4322:
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1840-o-h10c-no-drapery/4322
About halfway down the page on the left is a blue link "Show Related Coin and Varieties (2)"
Click on that and it will expand to show the
Major Varieties (Red Book varieties)
and
Die Varieties
In this case the FS-901 Transitional Rev No Drapery (better known as V-6 to seated half dime collectors).
Click on it to see its page, with a 5-digit Coin #:
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1840-o-h10c-fs-901-transitional-rev-no-drapery/38735

I'm familiar with that. Is it the PCGS only recognizes the major varieties? Or if is the rule that if it shows in CoinFacts PCGS recognizes it? I ask because many Morgan VAMs do not show any populations and Variety Vista does not indicate the PCGS recognizes them but there are coin numbers for them.

yosclimber

My understanding is:

If it shows up in CoinFacts, PCGS recognizes it (they have created a Coin# for it).
They will try to attribute it for a fee, and usually it is part of a variety registry set.

The population can show as zero if none have been attributed by PCGS.

In some cases, new PCGS Coin#s are created which group old ones together,
and the populations from the old Coin numbers are not transferred to the new ones.

But other folks may know more about this.

messydesk

@yosclimber said:

V-10i (photo by KeyVarieties)
There is an apparently terminal die state found recently with a very deep clash; only one is known.
It's pretty dramatic - you can read the date on the reverse.

Yes, this is what I was referring to, not V-10a. This is cataloged in the FS catalog as FS-901a according to the person who owns the coin. I've seen it, and it's pretty incredible.

NorCalJack

So in the new CPG, they removed numerous varieties from the book. At the bottom of the list it says the following:

"Note: __Varieties removed are still considered Cherrypickers' Guide varieties (as opposed to being "delisted"): for example, they will continue to be cross-referenced and summarized in appendix H. (Exceptions include varieties debunked as counterfeits, or those which later research revealed to be erroneously classified. These will be delisted completely.)"

So if the coins were removed from the CPG, but still have an assigned Fivaz-Stanton number, will PCGS continue listing them in the registry set? I would hope so. As an example they removed the 1934 Medium Motto and Heavy Motto Washington Quarter. They still include the Light Motto in the CPG, but I can't imagine PCGS removing the Medium Motto from the registry. Or the Heavy Motto for that matter.

Anyway, if someone with some knowledge about this would contribute to this thread I would appreciate it.

keyman64

@NorCalJack Medium and Heavy Motto I would not think so...but PCGS did remove a DDR Mercury Dime from the Registry in about 2010-2012 before the Fifth Edition Volume II came out I believe. I knew one person that had spent considerable time locating one and then poof it was no longer part of the complete variety set. So, there is a history of this action taking place.

messydesk

@NorCalJack said:
So in the new CPG, they removed numerous varieties from the book. At the bottom of the list it says the following:

"Note: __Varieties removed are still considered Cherrypickers' Guide varieties (as opposed to being "delisted"): for example, they will continue to be cross-referenced and summarized in appendix H. (Exceptions include varieties debunked as counterfeits, or those which later research revealed to be erroneously classified. These will be delisted completely.)"

So if the coins were removed from the CPG, but still have an assigned Fivaz-Stanton number, will PCGS continue listing them in the registry set? I would hope so. As an example they removed the 1934 Medium Motto and Heavy Motto Washington Quarter. They still include the Light Motto in the CPG, but I can't imagine PCGS removing the Medium Motto from the registry. Or the Heavy Motto for that matter.

Anyway, if someone with some knowledge about this would contribute to this thread I would appreciate it.

Might want to reach out to the Set Registry admins to see what their plan is.