Vintage 10s No Longer Possible?
AANV
Posts: 338 ✭✭✭
It's been about 2 years on 10,000 cards submitted and I haven't hit a single 10 pre-1980. Is this the new normal?
2
Comments
Yes…it is.
Yes. Impossible. As long as they're using the same grading standards as Modern there won't be another 10 issued. Maybe that's their plan? Maybe they want them all to be the same standard, and I get the argument. It's also ridiculously reductive and counter-productive.
9s are the new 10s when it comes to vintage.
Look on the bright side. I hardly buy anything unopened to rip and send to PSA anymore, so maybe that's helping them return cards faster.
my recent observations:
10 = date w/ Christina Aguilera. Possible, but loooooonnnnnggggggshot
9 = 10
8 = 9 or 10
7 = 7,8,9 or 10
4 = 4,5,6,7,8,9
you hit a pre-80 psa 10 before? WOW!! That's better than most of us. I usually get 7's and 8's.
I did get a 1977 Topps Tom Pacoriek PSA 7.5 a month ago.
I’ve had many vintage 10’s the last 2 were 1961 Topps baseball about 13 months ago. I used to average about 8% 10’s on pre 1976 Baseball before then
I’m fibbing, I did get 2-10s recently on 1973 Kellogg’s Panels
That will be very sad for vintage collectors if there are no longer PSA 10's. I have a few vintage non sport sets. One set has 3 PSA 10's and one PSA 9 and I'm afraid the cards I need to get graded would have graded about the same before this change now. you will have cards that maybe have PSA 7 or 8 that look or should be PSA 10 making the set look very awkward.
I have a ton of vintage 9's that I am sure a few would regrade to 10 but it is not worth the risk nowadays.
Not that it’s routine, but PSA 10s from 1972-1980 were pretty achievable in the past.
I've popped a few in the past. Once popped a 1/1 1974 Carlton Fisk PSA 10 that I traded for a 9 and like 1K. Registry is awesome when it comes to that. How about signed pre-1980 10's?
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Grading standards have gone up, no doubt. But also playing a role is that any card worthy of a 10, and worth submitting at current prices, was likely submitted a some time ago.
This seems spot on to me. I used to be in the camp of there being so many boxes of mint cards hiding in attics somewhere but that time has probably passed. I feel the same way about comics. Feels like 95% of perfect examples must already be in slabs with the way it's been going for 25+ years.
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Paul - that is a truly incredible submission. When was that had? I see the numbers are sequential so - holy crap!!
"All evil needs to triumph is for good men to do nothing."
@MorrellMan
Admittedly, it was the best submission I ever had. But it was toward the end of 2018.
Paul, very nice sub! I guess my second question would be do you think could you get those same type results with Rookie and Star player cards?
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Wow !!!
Absolutely wow !!!
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Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
daltex
I haven’t submitted many stars. The few I have (‘77 Brett & Ryan) came back 8s.
But I do know that gaspipe26 is personally responsible for a large chunk of the 1974 Tom Seaver 10s, so I guess it is possible. Or used to be.
Seems to me PSA has simply decided it's not going to happen on vintage HOF players.
This is the reason I don’t submit anymore. Better to buy other folks under-graded cards. Let someone else take the hit and wait for the environment to change. And if it doesn’t, when you have to sell, let some dreamer buy your nice raw cards at graded prices, and suffer the great letdown that is modern vintage grading.
2012 PSA grades --------------Jesus 10, plus 12 9's. 2023 PSA grades--------------Jesus 9 , plus 5 8's , 4 7s, 1 6, 1 5, and 1 poor.
This is my game now too, though I do submit still. My subs are now crossovers and the remaining I've set aside for grading that never made it there. For those I just wait for specials that cover their years.
I don't rip and grade anymore. Eventually, PSA is just going to be all ultra-modern subs and a few vintage re-subs sprinkled in.
Is Gaspipe still on ebay?
Yes, he still is…
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ssn=gaspipe26&store_name=gaspipe26&_oac=1&_trksid=p4429486.m3561.l2562
While I agree that PSA is not handing out PSA 10's like they used to, my last submission of 129 cards I received 5 psa 10's. The card needs to be perfect in order for me to get one for sure. These days even PSA 9's are tough to get pre-1970's. I would say many of the PSA 8's that I am getting back look pretty strong for the grade and none of the PSA 9's that I got back were sliders.
Thanks Paul.
I would agree with 1954, a lot but not all seem to be 1 grade shy
It's complete BS. I can understand tightening standards 10-15 years ago as the grading industry matured. However, continually doing so just undermines the whole enterprise and smacks of trying to control populations. If there isn't a standard of quality within the label, then there is no standard. It was easy to identify early certs and understand that they were graded with looser standards. Now you can't tell.
There's nothing more infuriating than submitting a sharp card that used to get an 8 all day long but now gets a PSA 7 and then seeing scores of inferior 8s for sale. How is one to build high grade sets when you can't put your high quality self-submitted cards in your set and have to instead settle for inferior cards with higher assigned grades? I guess they just don't care.
What about PSA-9s too? Very difficult these days…
gemint Right on.
How do your crossovers do? I have some I’d like to submit - SGC and BG…but don’t want to go through the time or expense to submit if they have zero chance of getting the same grade.
Could PSA be tightening grading standards to reduce submissions by discouraging collectors of submitting ? I still think PSA is overwhelmed by the volume of submissions…
One pre-1980 for me since COViD, out of about 150 pre-80 submitted:
Bosox1976
Census medians must be maintained.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
That Palmer is dead nuts gorgeous, Mike!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
A beautiful card!
Crossovers have been aweful lately. My last two got 1/10 hit rates. They wouldn't even cross an SGC 7.5 to a PSA 7. It's a total waste of money. I used to do pretty well with crossovers, getting 40-50% to cross. No more.
Cakes was the best pitcher!
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Well said. I am encountering the opposite issue. I have been slowly working on a PSA 5-6 set for over a decade. Most of my cards are old flips, and if I buy a new flip graded 6 it looks out of place (better condition) than the rest of my 6s.
buying O-Pee-Chee (OPC) baseball
I just submitted 42 cards for reviews. 5 were upgraded from 9's to 10's and 2 were upgraded from 8's for 8.5's, about what I expected - one in 6 upgraded.
That said, I am currently collecting a vintage set were clearly off center cards (some look like 6's to me) are receiving 8's. I do not totally buy into the tougher grading standards these days across the board. But generally speaking, it is true.
Late 60's and early to mid 70's non-sports
It seems I could not have picked a worse time to pick up a new hobby of buying vintage unopened and raw wax and sending bulk submissions to PSA. 😣🤦
At least this thread has helped me feel less of a complete and total idiot regarding the cards I sent in. The experience over the last few months has definitely left me feeling deflated and soured me completely on grading cards and PSA in general. I was starting to believe PSA had it in for me after I took issue with a label for the first thing I ever had graded back in February - a ticket minus the stub for the 1955 world heavyweight boxing title between Marciano and Cockell. They insist on labeling it the stub with the excuse that they only use two categories for tickets - full ticket or stub. I also didn't like the fact one corner was left bent in the slab. I really feel that they could have slabbed it looking better without doing anything that would be considered altering it. Anyways 95% my cards have all graded 2 or 3 grades lower than I hoped for and the other 5% 1 grade lower or 4 - 5 grades lower. Lol.
So something occured to me awhile ago regarding resubmissions. It strikes me as really exploitable by PSA. What's to stop them from having an unofficial policy of grading first time submissions super hard or even unfairly knowing many collectors will shell out to have them regraded. The fact that so many of your cards got bumped up is pretty strong evidence for two reasons. One is the simple fact that so many got a different grade the second time around. If the cards were graded genuinely the 1st time I would expect a very low change rate on resubmissions. It's that or their quality control is total b.s. The second is that by giving higher grades to resubmissions PSA incentivizes people to resubmit because it is proof that you can or will get higher grades. I was waffling on resubmitting with strongly leaning to not being so gunshy now but this has me reconsidering. It would such a sleazy thing for PSA to do but let's face it. This business self selects for scumbags when it comes to people who make their living from it in some way as it is inherently so exploitable.
Forgive me for this response.
I don’t seek PSA 10’s.
It’s amazing that grown men will spend hundreds of thousands more on a card because of its label.
An 8 has a slight touch on one corner and is dead centered.
A 9 has four sharp corners and is dead centered.
A 10 is just a roll of the dice or perhaps had better printing.
To be so concerned about the grades is all about the money and prestige to me. This hobby to me is about childhood joy and memories.
To me it’s just a fun hobby whether it’s a 7,8,9, or 10. The Gods honest truth is I cracked an SGC 3 six months ago, and it came back a PSA 5. Buy the card and don’t stress the “opinion”.
Sorry if this was offensive.
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Erba - coolstanley-dallasactuary-SDsportsfan
daltex
It’s more that the grading standards have been changed, with different points of emphasis. I can’t figure it out completely TBH. But I simultaneously hear reports of extreme toughness and see 9s on eBay with awful corners. Near perfect corners used to be a given for a PSA 9. I’m not sure what the algorithm is now.
I used to get a 9 back and, without fail, I could find the slightest bit of frost on the tip of one of the corners.
I can't find the problem with 9s now. My issue is that you can tell what the problem is by the grade. If you're sending in a card that you think is a 10 and it comes back an 8, you know there's a surface issue (probably a scratch or edge chipping on the back). If it comes back a 5 or a 6 you know it has a surface wrinkle somewhere. If it comes back a 9 then you know one of the corners is hiding something (possibly only visible from the back).
But now? Four perfect corners, 55/45 centering, no surface issues, no print issues, still coming back 7, 8, or 9. I'm flabbergasted. I know for my last few subs I cut back on the number of cards I submitted dramatically because I just wanted the bestest of the best.
Arthur
@ReggieCleveland
Are you talking about modern subs? Because I see newly graded vintage 9s on eBay all the time that have lots of corner wear.
I am, for the most part. How much damage to corners do they allow on a vintage PSA 9? I just assumed it was universal.
Arthur
In the past, I expected the corners of a PSA 9 to look, if not perfect, very nice. They might not always be perfectly sharp, but there was never any chipping exposing the cardboard underneath the glossy surface.
While I accept that in some ways grading has gotten tougher, I do see newly graded PSA 9s with more corner wear than I have come to expect in that grade. They mostly seem very well centered, but I can’t say I have found the average corner quality of a PSA 9 to have risen in the last few years.
I don't think it's all about the money. I recently stated that I have some older non sports cards that had some graded PSA 9 & 10. It is my concern that cards that I plan to grade which appear to be in roughly the same condition as though's 9 & 10 will be graded maybe PSA 6,7 or 8 and the set will lot odd.
There are two things going on here. First, standards have tightened, particularly for colored border cards. Second, grading consistency has really declined. I haven't gotten a generous grader in a long time but my last submission was graded by a real hard a$$. So you end up never knowing what standards will be used to handle your order (my focus is vintage (pre-1977).
If the grader that handled this card got my order, I'd get all 9's and 10's.