1801 DRAPED BUST DIME
60 streeter
Posts: 49 ✭✭
I'm back!! lol So.... I dug an 1801 draped bust dime this spring. Colonial site deep in the woods, and there was a 1772 1 reale with it. It appears to be a JR2.... even the die crack behind the E in america, where PCGS clearly show leakage, on the MS61 example, and on the G6 example seems to be almost in the identical die state as mine...sent it pcgs, and they came with unable to authenticate...... Called ANACS, and NGC, and what I got back is this coin is not easy enough for them.... I know one thing for sure... it is not a modern counterfeit. What ever it is ... it is old, and rare. Just trying to get some provenance one way or another. PCGS totally threw me to the curb to the tune of $200. PCGS has only 2 JR2s registered.... could this be a possible new die state? Or a colonial counterfeit? I have a super hard time believing it is a colonial counterfeit. However if it is that's! pretty cool too!! Need some help!! Reaching out to the JRCS, but that will take some time. 
Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Comments
It looks like dug silver, not dug pewter or base metal - so the chances of a contemporary counterfeit are very limited. I don't have any reason to believe it is a counterfeit, but then again, there has been a trend of more deceptive modern counterfeits appearing with each passing year.
For die variety study, I don't think your photos are clear enough. My advice is to take it to a large coin show and present it to someone who really knows early U.S. silver for in-person inspection.
It definitely is not a modern counterfeit. That coin was in the ground for 200 years. The site produced zero evidence of occupation beyond that. Ya this is going to take some time.... On the bright side I really don't want to sell which was my plan as I am retired and do this full time, so I have sell some...... I would love to keep this! I guess I better get diggin!! lol
100% NOT colonial counterfeit. The colonial period was over by 1801.
Jesse C. Kraft, Ph.D.
Resolute Americana Curator of American Numismatics
American Numismatic Society
New York City
Member of the American Numismatic Association (ANA), British Numismatic Society (BNS), New York Numismatic Club (NYNC), Early American Copper (EAC), the Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), U.S. Mexican Numismatic Association (USMNA), Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC), Token and Medal Society (TAMS), and life member of the Atlantic County Numismatic Society (ACNS).
Become a member of the American Numismatic Society!
Ok but still if it is counterfeit it is 200 year old counterfeit....
I like your name.
"Unable to authenticate" is probably one of the most frustrating results from a submission. Maybe contact one of the experts in the series ... e.g. Jim Matthews
Pacific Northwest Numismatic Association
I really dig that coin.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I should get it back today..... I will post updated photos....
Does he work for PCGS? Any idea where I may find his contact info? Hate to be a pest, but this really is frustrating....lol agh!!!
Awesome
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
What is the weight? There are "light-weight circulated counterfeits" of 1800 JR-2.
What is the edge reed count?
What is the exact diameter?
Does the tone of the ring match the ring tone of a raw DBD (a CBD should work) - be careful not to damage.
Back from where, the island of banned members?
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
"sent it pcgs, and they came with unable to authenticate"
Was it "Code 86 – Authenticity Unverifiable ?"
Nice find, show it to some experienced numismatists and let’s hope for the best.
IMO this definitive JR-2 appears to my ole eyes a counterfeit, but that could also be due to the damage and/or the photos. Stay tuned is all I can add.
It has the major die elements of JR-2, except for the characteristic parallel pitting streaks in front of the bust, AND the fact that star 4 is "always very weak and occasionally missing". Ref.: Bust Dime Variety ID Guide.
The pitting may be difficult to see due to prolonged burial. However, on the OPs coin star 4 is readily visible (and instead star 3 seems to be missing?) I find that unusual.
Here is my JR-2 for reference: star 4 is barely visible.
In which state did you find this coin?
Interesting that star 3 instead of star 4 is missing on the reverse?
Broken star 1 is also of interest.
Lastly, do not like the extra piece of metal on top of the first 1 in the date.
Can the blob on top of the 8 in the date be removed without damaging the date with a very wet and soft toothpick?
I can't comment on the authenticity.
But we have been digging tons of counterfeit coins in AL/SC/GA/FL. Especially in the popular hunting areas. It seems especially the FL/AL coast has a lot of this lately. It started about three years ago. Not sure if this is applicable to where you found these or not.
This was at a site in massachusetts a mile into the woods and 7? down in the ground. It has bee 200 years old counterfeit or authentic. It looks like the real deal and the reverse matches perfectly to the reverse on coinfacts for JR2 die state... the obverse is a bit harder with the curls etc..... but I am thinking if it doesn't match that would indicate a new die pairing. The die state in the secondary photo on coinfacts looks identical. The MS61 in th main photo is also a perfect match, just an earlier die state
gorgeous example!!! Looks like the anomalies changes with die state age.
All i know for sure is it was in the ground for at least 175 years, but most likely 200 or more. I will weight it when I get it back. If it is an old counterfeit I think it is an amazing counterfeit for sure.... the reverse does match the exact details of a JR2, there are some issues I have with the obverse.... could be a new pairing? Anyway very disgruntled that pcgs would just kick this to the curb.... didn't have the balls to commit to anything at all. And offered not one piece of information supporting their shrug of the shoulders....$180 dollar shrug
Are you in eastern or western Mass.? I'd be willing to take a look in person and/or snap a few macro lens photos for you if you're in the Berks or nearby.
Here's my 1801 JR-2 just for kicks - PCGS VF20 CAC. It's a bit off topic since we're discussing JR-2, but how often do we discuss 1801 dimes at all?
Beautiful coin! I live in North Adams.......This may be doable!! This is a great thread... love seeing the other examples! One thing is clear all light strikes at least on the reverse, and and yours is even lighter then most on the outer edges on the reverse, but the stars on yours are much more pronounced then most... see no evidence of the die crack or debris resulting at various die states, right behind the E in America... on mine and the two on coinfacts, particularly the G6 example seems to be in similar die state to mine
If you look at the coin facts example in the upper right hand corner.. the G6 example.. looks to be almost identical in die state to mine
BTW beautiful!!
My cell is 508 331 1843 Jim
Note the anomaly on the top of the E in "states" It seems all the examples here, as well as mine share that anomaly.
Note the anomaly on the top of the E in "states" It seems all the examples here, as well as mine share that anomaly.
Note the anomaly on the top of the E in "states" It seems all the examples here, as well as mine share that anomaly.
Note the anomaly on the top of the E in "states" It seems all the examples here, as well as mine share that anomaly.
It's a good idea to delete your cell number from this post. There's a private message feature here (and I sent you one - so check your mailbox at the upper right hand corner). I jotted down your number in case we need to get in touch.
I'll do my best to meet up with you and take some macro lens photos to add to this discussion.
I am going to reverse my opinion and say its the photos that make the coin look different, I will wag that it is the real deal, congrats.
Thanx for the input everyone!!! After seeing your awesome examples, I am completely reassured I have an authentic coin. Too many anomalies align... the soft strike, the missing stars... The die crack with debris flowing up behind the E in America, and the anomaly on top of the E in states. and the die looks identical everywhere else on the reverse, and the obverse, although I haven't spent that much time on it so far....... I do have some funkiness going on with my date, but die seams identical, just some blemish in the planchet possibly? I don't know but I do know this I am beyond pissed off with PCGS... they totally dropped ball on this one! Sometime in the future I will probably send to ANACS.... They seem more suited for this type of a coin
Thanx! Ya the photos suck... I never thought I would be using then in this way..... It should be back home this afternoon... I will update!
I visit Lenox, MA annually for a week and know the North Adams area well. It is quite close to the Williamstown area not far from the VT border.
The area of your dig makes the possibility of your coin being authentic more likely.
Certainly more than if you found the coin in New Mexico or Montana. 😀
I know this for sure..its old!!! lol no matter what... I hiked a mile into the woods and there wasn't even a trail nearby. But seriously too many anomalies line up here.. its real..... The only other thing that may be happening is maybe a new die pairing... I don't know...
My gut reaction just from the pics (didn't read the rest of this thread) is: fake.
On the web: http://www.earlyus.com
Read all the posts, check the photos and similar anomalies, and get back to me....
I should get the coin back from pcgs tocay, I will post better photos... never saw this coming...
After reading the other comments, they serve to strengthen my gut opinion. The coin appears fake.
On the web: http://www.earlyus.com
A few constructive tips:
Take the pictures straight on, not at any angle. One of the methods to attribute is an overlay with a photo of a known example.
Use a tripod if you have one, and crop your pictures.
Take a good picture of the edge, in a place where the reeding is the most sharp. A fake will most likely have a different edge than genuine.
As I mentioned before, weigh it with a digital scale. Also, DBD's have a different diameter than CBD's, and a fake likely would have a different diameter. Use digital calipers.
absolutely!! I just did that real quick with my cell
When switching between modes to find grams it briefly settled on 2.7 and then falls to 2.6.... seams good to me so far....
I just weighed.. looks good, don't have time right now but will get some good close ups very soon
I've done my share of metal detecting (30+ years ago) and the OP's coin isn't inconsistent with silver finds in poor soil conditions. The "scratches" are likely from rubbing dirt off of it when he found it.
I think the coin is genuine. Here's a couple of similar metal detecting finds from a 2 minute internet search.
The scratches are because the ground was saturated... as soon as I popped the plug it back filled...I had no clue I was pushing this thru mud and grit sliding right over her face ;(
In my opinion, it’s genuine, and if not, it’s a struck counterfeit (which I don’t believe).
It seems to me, that if those are adjustment marks remaining on the reverse of the planchet, a counterfeiter went to more trouble than necessary.
Aside re: terminology.
I have found our hosts will explicitly say ‘counterfeit’ if its a known counterfeit..eg Omega gold (whether contemporaneously made or recent)…or if it was a real coin meant to deceive (i.e. 1928 S Peace dollar with a removed mintmark).
My suspicion is that the environmental damage has sufficiently masked what would otherwise have been unequivocal evidence of genuineness or fakeness. I’m sure weight, diameter, reeding, number of denticles are all exact or they would have been unequivocal. This isn’t their first rodeo.
Buying and Selling coins for 54 years, 700+ shows in last 20 years, and boy am I tired.
Purchased and Trademarked the Mohawk Valley Hoard
Originated the Rochester (NY) Area Coin Expo
Always fun to try to "authenticate" something from images only...
Quite a difference in your images as well:
I would love to see some edge images!