Should coins with heavy die polishing be granted very high grades by the grading services?
Walkerlover
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I noticed this one particular coin as well as some others that are graded MS 67 or MS 67+ by the Major grading services have harsh die polish lines. Yet they are awarded such high grades. Does this make sense as they are very distracting to the eye even though they are mint made. Should these coins be lowered more in grade? Your opinions?
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They are "as struck".
Technical grades do not guarantee attractiveness.
Are there any grading services that assign a "technical grade" rather than a "market grade" which factors in "eye appeal"?
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They factor in eye appeal, but there's a limit to how much it knocks it down. A technical 68 or 69 with "average" eye appeal is not going to end up a 66 or 65.
But it could be knocked down to a 67. Right?
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I posted the PCGS standard above
I also don't think simple die polish is necessarily "negative eye appeal".
The coin the OP referred to were 67s.
I've always hated die polish lines, especially on PL Morgan Dollars. I feel they affect the value of the coin, but whether the numerical grade should be lowered is a matter of debate.
One particular coin that pushes the limits with die polish is the 1866-P business strike quarter dollar. If one really wants to ding the grade because of 1) die polish lines and 2) weak strike, then all known 1866 business strikes should grade no higher than MS-62 or so. As far as I can tell, every last one of them is flatly struck on the reverse, and every "BU" example I have seen has heavy die polish lines on the obverse that look like hairlines from cleaning. If a well-struck example without die polish turns up, it's likely to be a misattributed proof.
Here is my PCGS MS64 CAC example, which was actually entombed in a NCS Details, Cleaned slab many years ago (!) because the die polish is so obvious. I did a great job of angling the lighting so it doesn't look so bad.
Yes, it really is PCGS/CAC now. I guess the people at NCS did not know about the die polish issue with this rather obscure coin.
Here's a direct link to a PCGS MS66+ on the PCGS website (it's not mine); even the TrueView does not conceal the die polish on the obverse. Also note the flatly struck shield on the reverse, even at the MS66+ grade level.
Should PCGS really grade the coin above as MS66+ when an 1879 25c in MS-66+ will have significantly better strike and minimal or no die polish? That decision was made many years ago when PCGS opened, and they have been consistent over the years.
Looks like a 1943 SMS!!
Given the choice, I’d choose a coin without heavy die polish lines over one with them.
As a collector, cherry-pick for quality wherever you can.
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I think yes.
For me die polish is like toning, less is better. But I do not discount either if I like the overall look (and price) of the coin.
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they have negative eye appeal and should be dealt with accordingly
Yes. They should be able to receive very high grades. And I believe some coins with polish lines/striations can be finest known.
I dislike all lines on coins. Polish lines more than roller marks on Barber halves. Adjustment marks on early issues can go either way. Sometimes you have no choice. And the coins are as made and can be superb.
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Great post @rhedden . Agree with everything you said. Did you know that way back when an 1866 quarter was graded MS67 by PCGS? No longer in pop reports. The current 66+ was a bit too concave central obverse for me.
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I don’t think eye appeal should have anything to do with the technical grade. Eye appeal is for the buyer to decide.
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What is the highest grade known for a 1922 No D, Strong Reverse cent from each TPG? I can PROVE that the missing mint mark is the result of die polish, if only I can get a publisher. They are "as struck."
On the flip side, we once bought in an original roll of 1940-S half dollars. The all had great original luster, attractive toning and minimum bag marks. Had they been a roll of 1942-P's the majority of them would have 67'ed. However, they were all horribly struck, as is normal for the issue. They all came back MS-64, even though they were "as struck."
What is the answer to the OP's question? I dunno.
Strength of strike is part of the grade in gem grades. A very weakly struck coin should never grade higher than 65.
I think that strike has a lot to due with whether or not coins get the super high grades. If the coin is poorly made, it's going to limit how high up the chain it goes, regardless of how close it looks to the moment it left the dies.
I'm going to editorize and say that's how it should be. Eye appeal has a lot to do with value. An ugly coin that is "as struck" is worth less than an attractive coin that is also "as struck."
So far as the 1922 Plain, strong reverse is concerned, the highest grades have been MS-65+. It's based upon the reverse and the surface quality of the obverse. The obverse obviously lacks a lot of detail. If it doesn't the coin has had the "D" scraped off.
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I'm not sure how die polish is accounted for by our host in eye appeal but there's plenty who find it interesting. IMO die polish shouldn't grossly affect the grade potential as others have stated, that's from the mint. It's not a post mint damage or alteration. You may not like it personally, but if it meets the technical grade it should be just that.
That's why we have eyeballs... So we can see what we like and dislike and can decide if a coin fits our own definitions of like or dislike and we can avoid those we don't.
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I have a friend that recently bought a Morgan dollar in NGC MS68. It has a little bit of die polish.
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With your revered bean to boot! It’s not my cup of tea.
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Interesting comments from everyone. My own personal opinion is die polish lines should be factored into the final grade as they affect the look of the coin especially if they are on the prominent side. Question is also is there a big difference in reality between mint made and post mint made damage in terms of desirability. Isn’t damage, damage. It’s on the coin
Posting this coin I own from a previous thread. Virtually flawless with full mint bloom from an original roll. Very tiny planchet marks on the shoulder. Why should these marks preclude a MS 67+ or 68 grade as they are mint made just like die polish lines and less prominent.
Some commentators from the previous thread said they were an issue for a plus grade. John Butler at CACG said he would never pass it for a plus grade if it was up to him.
Die Polish lines are a part of the coin production process, so no it should not affect the grade. Some people like die polish lines and others don't, to each our own. The bigger problem is the collectors out there that mistake them for hairline scratches and think that every coin that they see with die polish lines has been cleaned.
But it's after the minting process still. Bag marks are not as minted. Even if it's seconds or minutes after its still not as minted.
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Hiding die polish:
Not so much:
This one graded Specimen 68 at hosts. It is gorgeous in hand however...
Well, just Love coins, period.
Keep as is.
Die polish lines part of production process. Not really material I would bid on anyway (my taste). I suggest you consult our hosts on that kind of question if needed. I see it as an investor choice like the 1943-S cent beaned above.
Die polish lines didn't hold this one back to a 66, all of the other hits did though.
The OP coin is the same coin as in the beaned photo. OP’s is cropped to omit the revered bean, oddly.
I posted the unmanipulated version since it exemplifies that (at a minimum) two professional grading companies - PCGS as well as CAC - have a solid understanding of die polish lines.
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On the contrary, Google is not your friend.
I just had a Morgan dollar returned cleaned that had die polish lines.
Go figure!
I went to figure.
Perhaps the coin had both. Or maybe either PCGS mistook die-polish lines for cleaning or you mistook cleaning for die-polish lines.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I suppose everyone has a different opinion about DPLs. To me, they're part of the coin's story, and mostly interesting. If they're around a few re-worked clashed areas of a die, I think they're kind of cool. If they run across a huge swath of otherwise clean fields, they're distracting. Either way, I say give the coin the appropriate technical grade and leave it to each person to see if they find it appealing or not. If I was the grader, I'd probably deduct a bit of eye appeal (a supposedly minor part of the grade) for really distracting lines and mostly ignore lines in small areas.
DPLs have no impact to surface preservation, strike, or luster (sometimes coins with DPLs will have exceptional luster).
They are useful as a diagnostic in finding other coins struck from the same die. Also a good way in proving lines aren’t scratches.
I actually like seeing them.
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Does my VAM fall into this conversation?
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--- If it should happen I die and leave this world and you want to remember me. Please only remember my opening Sig Line.A pristinely minted coin should not have die polish lines. Examples without die polish lines should be graded higher than those that do.
I am not a fan of "as struck" as the basis for grade. The grade of a coin should also be relevant to mint adjustments in the later minting of the coin. Grading needs to be absolute and relativistic.
OINK
I like it on this one! It's like the worker had hit the outer peripherals of the die with sandpaper as he turned the die in hand ultimately giving the coin a starburst effect. What's even more amazing, he did this to both dies! Be sure to open the pic in a new tab to blow it up to see the DPL and the extra eye appeal. The strike could have been stronger in detail and fewer marks but hey, until a better coin comes along......
Whether DPLs or strike-thrus should affect the grade or not or, in my case, the steps, it's hard to tell what the cgc will do with them. I think all coins grading MS65 and up need to be equipt with all the details the sculptor painstakingly carved into their plaster mold. But I don't see that ever going to happen, not even with the new cgc, not in my lifetime!
Personally, I think this is decided on a coin-to-coin basis among serious collectors who are constantly in search of those VEDS coins. And it's until a better example surfaces that improves the overall quality and in turn, possibly an upgrade in strike, condition and luster.
And most collectors wouldn't know the differences anyways. Not until they develop a mindset on exactly what makes a coin great with or without DPL. Most just don't (many never will) have the experience yet to understand.
Leo
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At least Bryce M alluded to one of the most important properties associated with die polish lines - luster. Some of my Walkers with die polish lines were boomers and I always assumed the die polish lines enhanced the luster. So IMHO die polish is not a negative unless it is somehow distracting. The below coin that I had in my set from PQ Dollars had great eye appeal:
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
That’s a pretty ridiculous and nonsensical statement, and grading would be the opposite of absolute if done in that fashion. At its most basic level, grading measures surface condition. That is relatively objective; either a coin has surface damage or it doesn’t, and it can have a varying degree of damage. If grading were to “factor in” all as-made characteristics such as die polish lines, which many don’t see as a problem (I couldn’t care less about die lines, and often they can be quite attractive - on gold dollars, for example), that means weighing an entirely subjective “problem” that will undoubtedly vary from person to person and will differ from coin type to coin type and even from one date/mintmark combination to another.
Grading is already subjective enough. If there’s an as-made characteristic that you personally dislike, I have a simple solution for you: don’t buy the coin.
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Also, it’s silly to treat die polishing lines as an issue that makes a coin not “pristinely minted.” The polishing of dies is a fundamental part of the minting process.
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While grading is certainly a subjective issue I don’t see anything wrong with the grading services lowering a grade for any mint made damage that is overly distracting. I posted earlier that John Butler at CACG wants to penalize my MS 67 CAC Lincoln for attaining a plus grade due to very fine shoulder planchet marks. I will not buy or pay a high price for any distracting die polish line coins when I can buy them defect free. So if you like you buy them, I will pass.
It’s not mint-made damage because it’s not damage, and planchet issues are something entirely different.
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Okay semantics I agree it’s technically not damage. But what is the difference in look realistically if someone scratched lines onto a MS 67 vs die polish lines.
And please explain to me why are incomplete struck through planchet marks different from DPL
The difference is that scratches are incuse and damage the surface metal and polish lines are raised and do not damage the surface metal. They don’t shine the same way, because scratches expose fresh metal. Die polish lines are scratches in the dies, not on the coin.
Planchet issues are in the planchet. In the case of your coin, what was undoubtedly being referred to was slight strike weakness that caused areas of unstruck planchet roughness on the high points - more of a striking issue than a planchet issue, but similar. This is considered an imperfection because the die didn’t fully impress an area of the planchet.
If die polishing lines are damage (and they’re quite literally the opposite of that, they’re the result of a die treatment process performed to improve the appearance of the coins and remove issues like die clashes) - then die clashes, die cracks, and die erosion (including simple metal flow lines) are all certainly also “damage”.
Should the conclusion then be that only well-struck early die state coins that have been struck from dies without die polish lines (somewhat of a conundrum as fresh dies frequently show die lines from polishing) be given high grades? Should mid/late die state coins struck from dies on which the polishing lines have eroded away be graded higher than earlier die state coins with the polishing lines still present, but less die wear? How exactly would netting work for these coins? Would a 64 that’s been netted to a 62 because of die lines and a die clash be worth the same amount as a typical 62 with unattractive surfaces? And who’s deciding how many die lines or other as-made characteristics will result in a net grade? None of this makes any practical sense.
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I got to thinking about why dies were periodically polished and what they used and came across this thread.
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/721661/what-tools-did-the-mint-workers-have-to-polish-dies-with
Leo
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Okay I see some of your points and agree. I still believe coins with strong die polish lines that are distracting should be lowered in grade. How can 2 MS 67 coins one with no die polish lines so clean looking be equal in grade to a coin with heavy lines. If people are going to pay less for the DPL coin, than the grade should reflect it.
Will you at least agree DPL do take away from the look if prominent
I like die polish lines on regularDollar. business strike coins. Not so much on PL or DMPL coins.
I'm not sure why but they appeal to me. Must be the originality and awareness of the manufacturing of the Morgan dollar.
I just purchased a raw 1879S as a DMPL that has some heavy polish lines. I will post it once in hand. The polish lines on the reverse may keep it from DMPL. Fortunately I did not pay DMPL money for it. It has a beautiful cameo which attracted me to the coin.
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