Is it artificial toning when it’s real?
stevereecy
Posts: 205 ✭✭✭
Hey guys,
I have a proof Canadian coin that I’ve been trying to tone in my chins cabinet by setting it next to an old penny roll. Not having any luck with that after 5 years or do.
But last year I got a new quarter in change so I put it in there next to that penny roll just because I needed a place to put it until I could look at it later. Forgot about it until yesterday. Check it out. What should I do with it?
Really enjoying collecting coins and currency again
My currency "Box of Ten" Thread: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1045579/my-likely-slow-to-develop-box-of-ten#latest
My currency "Box of Ten" Thread: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1045579/my-likely-slow-to-develop-box-of-ten#latest
2
Comments
If you like it, keep it and enjoy it. Otherwise, spend it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
You intentionally put it next to low quality paper containing sulfur that causes toning. What do YOU think?
Put it on Ebay and start the auction at $1. You can't lose.
So it's artificial for that? That just doesn't make sense it's one's state of mind that's the determinant.
Agreed, it doesn’t make sense - at least not on a practical basis with respect to coin grading.
A judgment call as to whether a coin’s been artificially toned is based on its appearance, not on intent, (which is typically impossible to know).
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Except it really is ALWAYS "artificial" when you put it in high sulfur paper to get it to tone. Just because it's often "market acceptable" doesn't make it "natural".
In this case, there is a stated intent to artificially tone a coin so we don't even have to guess at the intent.
I’ve seen this happen when I had some new dollars or quarters in my pocket and I’m working all day at the fire then I pull it out and they look like this. So kinda real but AT.
Hoard the keys.
What, if, for purposes of storage, someone places a coin in an envelope or album, not knowing it has a high sulfur content? Is the resulting toning “artificial”? What if someone does the same thing, but with knowledge of the high sulfur content?
In each case, the answer should be the same. And if you think both answers are “artificial” there’s a large percentage of market participants who would disagree.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Since it’s a 2022 coin I think the assumption will artificially toned. If it was a 1952 coin people will the toning was more happenstance than intention.
I agree with you.........
This is why "artificial toning" is something of a misnomer, since the chemistry behind "artificial toning" and "natural toning" is essentially identical in most cases.
The more accurate antonym of "natural toning" is "accelerated toning". Some methods of accelerated toning are very rapid (using hydrogen sulfide gas, for example). Others are more gradual (like leaving it on the kitchen windowsill of a household where lots of eggs, garlic and onions are prepared). The difference between "artificial" and "natural" toning is often intent, and the laws of chemistry don't know or care about your intent. Whether you left a coin on the kitchen windowsill because you knew it would quickly tone there, or because you put it there to show your mum and simply forgot to retrieve it, is irrelevant.
Some forms of accelerated toning use different chemistry, alien to a coin's natural environment (clorox bleach, for example) and such methods can be easily detected by a TPG with suitable chemical analysis equipment. Other forms use chemistry that's identical to "natural toning", and are thus undetectable. A difference that makes no difference, is no difference.
As noted by others above, the difference between accelerated vs natural toning, or "bad" vs "good" toning, or artificial vs market-acceptable, is in the eventual outcome - its appearance, and what the laws of chemistry have actually made the coin look like.
Roman emperor Marcus Aurelius, "Meditations"
Apparently I have been awarded one DPOTD.
"Accelerated" is just one of the ways to look at it. "Deep and rich" vs. "pastel and thin" is another. There are of course others. The bottom-line is, these acronyms are meaningless. They're arbitrary, at best, and incapable of definition at worst. What matters is PCGS's endorsement on the color for their market. Let's never forget they're getting behind the toning when they grade it. I may disagree and think it's market acceptable. And indeed it may be. But no grade, and not for their market. For their market, it fails to grade. And why is that important? It's because they have a price guide for the coins they endorse at their grades, and a "no grade" means it doesn't play at those prices. That's PCGS's business, not my business. And I trust them, I like how they exercise their discretion. Their label earned that trust, I didn't just give it to them for nothing.
"Accelerated" is just one of the ways to look at it. "Deep and rich" vs. "pastel and thin" is another. There are of course others. The bottom-line is, these acronyms are meaningless. They're arbitrary, at best, and incapable of definition at worst. What matters is PCGS's endorsement on the color for their market. Let's never forget they're getting behind the toning when they grade it. I may disagree and think it's market acceptable. And indeed it may be. But no grade, and not for their market. For their market, it fails to grade. And why is that important? It's because they have a price guide for the coins they endorse at their grades, and a "no grade" means it doesn't play at those prices. That's PCGS's business, not my business. And I trust them, I like how they exercise their discretion. Their label earned that trust, I didn't just give it to them for nothing.
The problem here is that while at the extremes there is little difference of opinion over natural vs artificial, as the methods/causes move toward the center it is tougher to decide or define.
Your quarter looks great. No TPG opinion either way changes that. You exposed it to conditions that were meant to cause toning and you succeeded.
They can disagree, but that doesn't make it right.
If I accidentally drop a coin in a paint bucket, is that "natural"?
I prefer "market acceptable" to "natural". Intentional or unintentional, when you put a coin in a high sulfur environment, the resulting toning is due to a foreign substance being put in contact with a coin. It is really hard to call that "natural".
"Market acceptable" is the standard when tarnish is imparted to a coin. In fact that's the same standard when tarnish is dipped out of a coin. When it's a TPG's market, it's the TPG that makes that call. I've seen coins endorsed by TPGs that are clearly dipped. The question for them, again, is whether they want the coin to trade in their market, at their price guide. Don't ever forget, these TPGs have reputations to uphold. Their labels on their slabs are their trademarks for quality market grades. They determine that level of quality, not us. We judge and scrutinize them for it, that's all. When we don't like how they're making the calls, that reflects badly on them. When we like it, it reflects good. All to say, these terms, "natural," "artificial," etc., etc., in and of themselves, defy intrinsic definition. They're what are called, "arbitrary." They mean nothing outside of whether the tarnish or dip is acceptable. And to the TPGs endorsing same, that means, to their market, at their price guide, period, end of discussion.
Yes if you didn't mean it but if you meant it it's artificial.
"Accelerated" is just one of the ways to look at it. "Deep and rich" vs. "pastel and thin" is another. There are of course others. The bottom-line is, these acronyms are meaningless. They're arbitrary, at best, and incapable of definition at worst. What matters is PCGS's endorsement on the color for their market. Let's never forget they're getting behind the toning when they grade it. I may disagree and think it's market acceptable. And indeed it may be. But no grade, and not for their market. For their market, it fails to grade. And why is that important? It's because they have a price guide for the coins they endorse at their grades, and a "no grade" means it doesn't play at those prices. That's PCGS's business, not my business. And I trust them, I like how they exercise their discretion. Their label earned that trust, I didn't just give it to them for nothing.
"Accelerated" is just one of the ways to look at it. "Deep and rich" vs. "pastel and thin" is another. There are of course others. The bottom-line is, these acronyms are meaningless. They're arbitrary, at best, and incapable of definition at worst. What matters is PCGS's endorsement on the color for their market. Let's never forget they're getting behind the toning when they grade it. I may disagree and think it's market acceptable. And indeed it may be. But no grade, and not for their market. For their market, it fails to grade. And why is that important? It's because they have a price guide for the coins they endorse at their grades, and a "no grade" means it doesn't play at those prices. That's PCGS's business, not my business. And I trust them, I like how they exercise their discretion. Their label earned that trust, I didn't just give it to them for nothing.