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A guy owns 31 MJ 86 Fleer PSA 10 rookies?

4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭

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    jfkheatjfkheat Posts: 2,722 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Rick Probstein, the owner, has been buying them for quite a while.

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    4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2023 6:32AM

    @jfkheat said:
    Rick Probstein, the owner, has been buying them for quite a while.

    Interesting to see if $5 million in Jordan PSA10 rookies over the next 10 years would be better then $5 million in an S&P and Nasdaq fund.

    We’ve bought 3k shares of Apple the past 15 years. I’m guessing the Jordan’s probably would have been better. Much better.

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    VagabondVagabond Posts: 551 ✭✭✭✭

    31 Jordan's is a solid buy. Heck, even 1 (for anyone planning on holding long term). Probstein will be just fine.

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    4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭

    @Vagabond said:
    31 Jordan's is a solid buy. Heck, even 1 (for anyone planning on holding long term). Probstein will be just fine.

    Yes he will and very good for him.

    The other side of the coin is $5 million gets you 7% annually in an S&P fund.

    I would sell and get $350,000 per year in a fund. 11-12 years you’ve doubled your money.

    Like you said though, the guy did well and is fine.

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    82FootballWaxMemorys82FootballWaxMemorys Posts: 1,292 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'd prefer 5 mill in a solid S&P 500 fund from a purely fiscal perspective. Still the fact the comparison is valid speak volumes.

    Unless otherwise specified my posts represent only my opinion, not fact.

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    NGS428NGS428 Posts: 2,264 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yup, just any ol’ guy. 😀

    Saw none of them crossed to a Beckett Black Label. Seemed like just an attempted power move by Beckett. Crack them and sub them and there will probably be one. I know they are such a small percent as black labels (one of the biggest frauds in all of grading).

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    CardGeekCardGeek Posts: 400 ✭✭✭
    edited August 5, 2023 3:19PM

    This isn't a rare card. They printed a ton of this set.

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    80sOPC80sOPC Posts: 1,242 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Richard Block hit three in one sub a few years back.

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    JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,210 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Vagabond said:
    31 Jordan's is a solid buy. Heck, even 1 (for anyone planning on holding long term). Probstein will be just fine.

    I sure hope not.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
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    2dueces2dueces Posts: 6,247 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Scarcity isn’t a word to use for the 1986-87 Jordan. It’s iconic and will always be recognized as a top 10 must have.
    I don’t know the #’s but there probably are 100’s of Lebron rookies but only one true Jordan rookies.
    Our lifetime all time iconic cards even a non collector would recognize
    52 Mantle
    86 Jordan
    89 Griffey
    00 Brady

    W.C.Fields
    "I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
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    GreenSneakersGreenSneakers Posts: 908 ✭✭✭✭

    @2dueces said:

    Our lifetime all time iconic cards even a non collector would recognize
    52 Mantle
    86 Jordan
    89 Griffey
    00 Brady

    79 Gretzky over Brady

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    JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,210 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Mickey Mantle, Michael Jordan, Wayne Gretzky, Jim Brown.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
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    bobbyw8469bobbyw8469 Posts: 7,139 ✭✭✭

    @ReggieCleveland said:
    Should've been buying the '84 Star #101, now that PSA grades them. That's the card to own. A PSA 10 in that would blow the doors off the '86 Fleer and it wouldn't be close.

    Arthur

    Not really. I couldn't even tell you what that card looked like. The '86 Fleer is an iconic card that shows Jordan in a VERY iconic pose. THAT is the one you want.

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    ReggieClevelandReggieCleveland Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bobbyw8469 said:

    @ReggieCleveland said:
    Should've been buying the '84 Star #101, now that PSA grades them. That's the card to own. A PSA 10 in that would blow the doors off the '86 Fleer and it wouldn't be close.

    Arthur

    Not really. I couldn't even tell you what that card looked like. The '86 Fleer is an iconic card that shows Jordan in a VERY iconic pose. THAT is the one you want.

    The fact that you don't know what the card looks like doesn't really make you an expert on which one is better. A PSA 10 #101 would sell for more than a PSA 10 '86 Fleer every day of the week and twice on Saturday. You being unfamiliar with that market doesn't make it untrue.

    Arthur

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    CakesCakes Posts: 3,462 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 11, 2023 7:22AM

    @ReggieCleveland said:

    @bobbyw8469 said:

    @ReggieCleveland said:
    Should've been buying the '84 Star #101, now that PSA grades them. That's the card to own. A PSA 10 in that would blow the doors off the '86 Fleer and it wouldn't be close.

    Arthur

    Not really. I couldn't even tell you what that card looked like. The '86 Fleer is an iconic card that shows Jordan in a VERY iconic pose. THAT is the one you want.

    The fact that you don't know what the card looks like doesn't really make you an expert on which one is better. A PSA 10 #101 would sell for more than a PSA 10 '86 Fleer every day of the week and twice on Saturday. You being unfamiliar with that market doesn't make it untrue.

    Arthur

    I agree it's an amazing card but do any graded PSA 10's even exist? I have never even seen a PSA 9, the centering generally keeps them below the PSA 8 grading standard.

    Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.

    Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
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    4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭

    @Cakes said:

    @ReggieCleveland said:

    @bobbyw8469 said:

    @ReggieCleveland said:
    Should've been buying the '84 Star #101, now that PSA grades them. That's the card to own. A PSA 10 in that would blow the doors off the '86 Fleer and it wouldn't be close.

    Arthur

    Not really. I couldn't even tell you what that card looked like. The '86 Fleer is an iconic card that shows Jordan in a VERY iconic pose. THAT is the one you want.

    The fact that you don't know what the card looks like doesn't really make you an expert on which one is better. A PSA 10 #101 would sell for more than a PSA 10 '86 Fleer every day of the week and twice on Saturday. You being unfamiliar with that market doesn't make it untrue.

    Arthur

    I agree it's an amazing card but do any graded PSA 10's even exist? I have never even seen a PSA 9, the centering generally keeps them below the PSA 8 grading standard.

    I don’t care which card is better, but I always enjoy a tougher card to get.

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    CakesCakes Posts: 3,462 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @4for4 said:

    @Cakes said:

    @ReggieCleveland said:

    @bobbyw8469 said:

    @ReggieCleveland said:
    Should've been buying the '84 Star #101, now that PSA grades them. That's the card to own. A PSA 10 in that would blow the doors off the '86 Fleer and it wouldn't be close.

    Arthur

    Not really. I couldn't even tell you what that card looked like. The '86 Fleer is an iconic card that shows Jordan in a VERY iconic pose. THAT is the one you want.

    The fact that you don't know what the card looks like doesn't really make you an expert on which one is better. A PSA 10 #101 would sell for more than a PSA 10 '86 Fleer every day of the week and twice on Saturday. You being unfamiliar with that market doesn't make it untrue.

    Arthur

    I agree it's an amazing card but do any graded PSA 10's even exist? I have never even seen a PSA 9, the centering generally keeps them below the PSA 8 grading standard.

    I don’t care which card is better, but I always enjoy a tougher card to get.

    Sorry, I am not sure I understand what you are saying.

    Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.

    Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
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    mintonlyplsmintonlypls Posts: 1,740 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 11, 2023 8:57AM

    1986 Fleer Jordan was a mainstream issuance whereas 1984 Star Jordan was anomalously distributed by selected dealers in team baggies. As pointed also…1986 Fleer Jordan epitomizes who Jordan was. I prefer 1986 over 1984 Jordan…

    mint_only_pls
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    4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭

    @Cakes said:

    @4for4 said:

    @Cakes said:

    @ReggieCleveland said:

    @bobbyw8469 said:

    @ReggieCleveland said:
    Should've been buying the '84 Star #101, now that PSA grades them. That's the card to own. A PSA 10 in that would blow the doors off the '86 Fleer and it wouldn't be close.

    Arthur

    Not really. I couldn't even tell you what that card looked like. The '86 Fleer is an iconic card that shows Jordan in a VERY iconic pose. THAT is the one you want.

    The fact that you don't know what the card looks like doesn't really make you an expert on which one is better. A PSA 10 #101 would sell for more than a PSA 10 '86 Fleer every day of the week and twice on Saturday. You being unfamiliar with that market doesn't make it untrue.

    Arthur

    I agree it's an amazing card but do any graded PSA 10's even exist? I have never even seen a PSA 9, the centering generally keeps them below the PSA 8 grading standard.

    I don’t care which card is better, but I always enjoy a tougher card to get.

    Sorry, I am not sure I understand what you are saying.

    In other words, I have no preference about either card, however when it comes to collecting I always prefer a tougher card to find over an easier one.

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    CardGeekCardGeek Posts: 400 ✭✭✭
    edited August 11, 2023 1:36PM

    I didn't even know who Michael Jordan was until 1988-1989. One of my teenage friends did a huge painting of a basketball player dunking. I asked who it was. He told me it was Michael Jordan. I asked who that was. Then a couple years later I saw the fleer card when someone brought it to school. Basketball Beckett didn't come out till 1990. I started collecting baseball cards in 1985. My friends knew nothing about basketball. In 1990 the guy who owned Beckett was said to own all of the known 1990 Frank Thomas NNOFs.

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    CardGeekCardGeek Posts: 400 ✭✭✭

    I'm sure all those plates were destroyed.

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    EstilEstil Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭✭

    @CardGeek said:
    This isn't a rare card. They printed a ton of this set.

    But how many managed to get a PSA 10?

    WISHLIST
    Dimes: 54S, 53P, 50P, 49S, 45D+S, 44S, 43D, 41S, 40D+S, 39D+S, 38D+S, 37D+S, 36S, 35D+S, all 16-34's
    Quarters: 52S, 47S, 46S, 40S, 39S, 38S, 37D+S, 36D+S, 35D, 34D, 32D+S
    74 Topps: 37,38,46,47,48,138,151,193,210,214,223,241,256,264,268,277,289,316,435,552,570,577,592,602,610,654,655
    1997 Finest silver: 115, 135, 139, 145, 310
    1995 Ultra Gold Medallion Sets: Golden Prospects, HR Kings, On-Base Leaders, Power Plus, RBI Kings, Rising Stars
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    CardGeekCardGeek Posts: 400 ✭✭✭

    Why do you think only PSA 10s matter?

    Look at all the 9s that could be resubmitted.

    Or all the 9s that look like 10s.

    Or all the 10s that look like 8s.

    Stuff made these days mostly gets 10s.

    The guy with all these Jordan 10s, in one of his videos he says he's going to buy Beckett so he can give himself BGS 10s.

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    1948_Swell_Robinson1948_Swell_Robinson Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭✭

    @CardGeek said:
    I'm sure all those plates were destroyed.

    Definitely not as rare as his real RC, the Star #101, but still, with only 318 10's, and 2,940 9's, it is rare compared to 1989 Upper Griffey though (30,000 9's and 4,000 10's).

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    4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭

    (318) PSA 10 MJ 86 Fleer rookies ?
    That’s a lot for the market to absorb.

    Last time I looked there are just two of these, and one ain’t that pretty.


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    4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭

    Don’t think an 86 Fleer MJ PSA 10 will ever catch the great one in price.
    Only because the desire to have that elusive card attracts serious competition. 86 Fleer is not necessarily elusive.

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    daltexdaltex Posts: 3,486 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @4for4 said:

    @Cakes said:

    @ReggieCleveland said:

    @bobbyw8469 said:

    @ReggieCleveland said:
    Should've been buying the '84 Star #101, now that PSA grades them. That's the card to own. A PSA 10 in that would blow the doors off the '86 Fleer and it wouldn't be close.

    Arthur

    Not really. I couldn't even tell you what that card looked like. The '86 Fleer is an iconic card that shows Jordan in a VERY iconic pose. THAT is the one you want.

    The fact that you don't know what the card looks like doesn't really make you an expert on which one is better. A PSA 10 #101 would sell for more than a PSA 10 '86 Fleer every day of the week and twice on Saturday. You being unfamiliar with that market doesn't make it untrue.

    Arthur

    I agree it's an amazing card but do any graded PSA 10's even exist? I have never even seen a PSA 9, the centering generally keeps them below the PSA 8 grading standard.

    I don’t care which card is better, but I always enjoy a tougher card to get.

    There are thousands, maybe tens of thousands of cards printed in 2023 alone that are rarer than a '52 Mantle, or a T-206 Wagner for that matter.

    Just sayin'.

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    4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭

    @daltex said:

    @4for4 said:

    @Cakes said:

    @ReggieCleveland said:

    @bobbyw8469 said:

    @ReggieCleveland said:
    Should've been buying the '84 Star #101, now that PSA grades them. That's the card to own. A PSA 10 in that would blow the doors off the '86 Fleer and it wouldn't be close.

    Arthur

    Not really. I couldn't even tell you what that card looked like. The '86 Fleer is an iconic card that shows Jordan in a VERY iconic pose. THAT is the one you want.

    The fact that you don't know what the card looks like doesn't really make you an expert on which one is better. A PSA 10 #101 would sell for more than a PSA 10 '86 Fleer every day of the week and twice on Saturday. You being unfamiliar with that market doesn't make it untrue.

    Arthur

    I agree it's an amazing card but do any graded PSA 10's even exist? I have never even seen a PSA 9, the centering generally keeps them below the PSA 8 grading standard.

    I don’t care which card is better, but I always enjoy a tougher card to get.

    There are thousands, maybe tens of thousands of cards printed in 2023 alone that are rarer than a '52 Mantle, or a T-206 Wagner for that matter.

    Just sayin'.

    Making one card where that one only stands at the top does not compare to making thousands upon thousands of cards and one of those stands at the top. JMO

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    ReggieClevelandReggieCleveland Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭

    We run into this on Bunt. As the app grew, they could no longer make individual 1-of-1's for the monthly Diamond VIPs as the number of VIPs kept growing so they decided to pick a player and they'd issue 8-10 versions of a card for that player, each with a couont of 10.

    People get caught up in the "it's numbered to 10!" part but there's really 90+ copies of their DIamond VIP card, just with various poses. Not to mention the fact that players like Trout, Ohtani, Soto, Jeter, etc. get one every year so it's not long before you have hundreds of 10cc Diamonds that people think are worth a similar 10cc card.

    Same with the 1-of-1's. It's not really a 1-of-1 if you make 40 different versions of it for the same player.

    Arthur

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    CardGeekCardGeek Posts: 400 ✭✭✭

    @ReggieCleveland said:
    We run into this on Bunt. As the app grew, they could no longer make individual 1-of-1's for the monthly Diamond VIPs as the number of VIPs kept growing so they decided to pick a player and they'd issue 8-10 versions of a card for that player, each with a couont of 10.

    You make it sound as if they know where the cards are going before they print them.

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    ReggieClevelandReggieCleveland Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CardGeek said:

    @ReggieCleveland said:
    We run into this on Bunt. As the app grew, they could no longer make individual 1-of-1's for the monthly Diamond VIPs as the number of VIPs kept growing so they decided to pick a player and they'd issue 8-10 versions of a card for that player, each with a couont of 10.

    You make it sound as if they know where the cards are going before they print them.

    For the monthly VIP award cards, they do know where they're going. They know if they have 87 Diamond VIPs they have to print 9 different cards of the same player with 8 VIPs getting a 10cc and the 9th getting a 7cc.

    Arthur

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    bobbyw8469bobbyw8469 Posts: 7,139 ✭✭✭

    @ReggieCleveland said:

    @bobbyw8469 said:

    @ReggieCleveland said:
    Should've been buying the '84 Star #101, now that PSA grades them. That's the card to own. A PSA 10 in that would blow the doors off the '86 Fleer and it wouldn't be close.

    Arthur

    Not really. I couldn't even tell you what that card looked like. The '86 Fleer is an iconic card that shows Jordan in a VERY iconic pose. THAT is the one you want.

    The fact that you don't know what the card looks like doesn't really make you an expert on which one is better. A PSA 10 #101 would sell for more than a PSA 10 '86 Fleer every day of the week and twice on Saturday. You being unfamiliar with that market doesn't make it untrue.

    Arthur

    I've only been doing cards for 35 years. My apologies for not really following an obscure set that PSA only recently just started to grade due to being unable to tell real cards from fake cards.

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    bobbyw8469bobbyw8469 Posts: 7,139 ✭✭✭

    @mintonlypls said:
    1986 Fleer Jordan was a mainstream issuance whereas 1984 Star Jordan was anomalously distributed by selected dealers in team baggies. As pointed also…1986 Fleer Jordan epitomizes who Jordan was. I prefer 1986 over 1984 Jordan…

    You and most everybody else.

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    CardGeekCardGeek Posts: 400 ✭✭✭

    Not such an obscure set. It's a pretty iconic set.

    The thing is, it's a set that has being counterfieted ever since the 80s. So heavily counterfieted that PSA was uncomfortable saying any of it was real for a long time.

    Back in the 90s people used to say that the guy who owned Star would go in to his garage, or whatever, and run some off when he needed some extra spending cash.

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    JolleyWrencherJolleyWrencher Posts: 605 ✭✭✭

    @CardGeek said:
    Not such an obscure set. It's a pretty iconic set.

    The thing is, it's a set that has being counterfieted ever since the 80s. So heavily counterfieted that PSA was uncomfortable saying any of it was real for a long time.

    Back in the 90s people used to say that the guy who owned Star would go in to his garage, or whatever, and run some off when he needed some extra spending cash.

    I'd take one.
    Fleer or Star...makes no difference to me, they're both hot commodities of the GOAT.

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    CardGeekCardGeek Posts: 400 ✭✭✭
    edited August 14, 2023 4:46PM

    It's a good thing he came along when he did, right? Basketball was at such a point that Topps had decided to quit making basketball cards so Star, a real small player, manages to acquire the license. Then Jordan shows up and goes on to revitalize the game in the 90s creating a dynasty in Chicago. Before that Chicago was really only known for organized crime and cheating at baseball. Well, and the superbowl shuffle.

    When I was in High School, Starter jackets were the thing.

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    4for44for4 Posts: 675 ✭✭✭

    @CardGeek said:
    It's a good thing he came along when he did, right? Basketball was at such a point that Topps had decided to quit making basketball cards so Star, a real small player, manages to acquire the license. Then Jordan shows up and goes on to revitalize the game in the 90s creating a dynasty in Chicago. Before that Chicago was really only known for organized crime and cheating at baseball. Well, and the superbowl shuffle.

    When I was in High School, Starter jackets were the thing.

    The NBA was a mess in the mid-70’s.
    It was seen as a drug user league and attendance was abysmal.

    Dr. J was in the ABA and more popular then any NBA star.

    Then came along Larry and Magic and the NBA soon recovered, then MJ taking it even higher.

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    ReggieClevelandReggieCleveland Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2023 10:26AM

    @CardGeek said:
    Not such an obscure set. It's a pretty iconic set.

    The thing is, it's a set that has being counterfieted ever since the 80s. So heavily counterfieted that PSA was uncomfortable saying any of it was real for a long time.

    Back in the 90s people used to say that the guy who owned Star would go in to his garage, or whatever, and run some off when he needed some extra spending cash.

    This is a whole bunch of incorrect. The 1983 and 1984 sets were never counterfeited any more than any other card has been counterfeited. You're thinking of the Shop at Home scandal when the guy got caught making new sets of Crunch 'N Munch and other '85/'86 subsets. They appear completely different from the originals and came with a COA that they back dated the set to the mid-'80s when they were printing them at the time. When the Feds raided the printers there were no '83 or '84 plates and only one plate from the '85 set.

    I've also had multiple conversations with PSA's old president Steve Sloan about them and they didn't exclude them because they couldn't tell the difference between a genuine copy and a fake.

    But that's the urban legend that continue to gets passed along and perpetuated. There are far more counterfeited copies of his '86 Fleer than his '84 #101.

    Arthur

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    CardGeekCardGeek Posts: 400 ✭✭✭
    edited August 15, 2023 1:09PM

    I'm takling about what people were saying about Star cards in the early 90s when you would go in to sports card stores in Los Angeles. I have heard of the Shop at Home scandle. I don't know when that took place though.

    Even in Beckett in the 90s they printed a warning saying beware of counterfiets next to the Star sets.

    This is the same conversation I've had on this site like 3 times in the past 3 years.

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    ReggieClevelandReggieCleveland Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CardGeek said:
    This is the same conversation I've had on this site like 3 times in the past 3 years.

    Well, you're getting just about all of the facts wrong so either do some research or stop perpetuating an incorrect story.

    I know that comes of as pretty dickish, and I honestly don't mean it that way, I just hate seeing disinformation getting passed off as fact when we have so many eyes on this board that rely on it for accurate information. I didn't mean anything personal by it.

    Arthur

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    CardGeekCardGeek Posts: 400 ✭✭✭

    What facts am I getting wrong?

    If they didn't exclude them because they couldn't tell the difference. Why did they exclude them? To my knowledge they were officially licensed. I've also read on this forum that the guy they're getting the information on authentication from, the same guy BGS had been using, is a guy who worked for Star in the 80s and 90s. Doesn't that seem a little shady? Asking the people who may have been printing and selling these cards out the back door what is legitimate?

    I can see the incentive to remove the exclusion. When you're goin to charge guys a % of their card to grade it. And, the card has huge dollar value. Why not remove the restriction? You're the authority, right?

    You say, "The 1983 and 1984 sets were never counterfeited any more than any other card has been counterfeited." Most card don't get counterfeited at all. So, I'd say those cards were in fact counterfeited more than other cards. It also comes down to what you consider a counterfeit. If they were printed by the guy who owned the company from the original plates, just out of time, not in the intended year, are you considering that a counterfeit? If you cant tell the difference between the real ones and the fakes ones. Are they all real? They should probably call the set Star "84-presant" or "Star 84-96" probably. I know, that's a little bit of an exaggeration. Or maybe it isn't.

    If Beckett was the authority on sports cards in the 90s and they felt they needed to print warnings in their industry standard publication isn't that a huge red flag? Do any of you know the story on why that warning was printed for something like 10 years?

    I'm telling you the word on the street at that time. Maybe you were there too. Some huge percentage of business associated with sports cards are in California and Los Angeles in particular. Lot's of wealthy buyers here. Guys who can open shops and put a guy in it for an insignificant dollar amount. The guys who profit off the hype are also the guys who control the lanes of communication. It's kind of sickening.

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    daltexdaltex Posts: 3,486 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's a little disingenuous to say that "Of course Star Jordans were counterfeited more than other cards were because they were counterfeited more than a 1987 Topps Don Slaught." Obviously that's not what @ReggieCleveland meant. Obviously.

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    CardGeekCardGeek Posts: 400 ✭✭✭

    How many other sports cards do you think have really been counterfeited a ton? I don't think there are a lot of sports cards that get counterfeited. Maybe more so since about 2000. I've seen people posting about Japanese and Chinese copies of Brady RCs. But, pre-2000, a few mantles. Pre-WWII, it may be more of a problem because that stuff got reissued a bunch through the years. Hardly anybody alive handled the real stuff when it was new. These Jordans are probably the most counterfeited cards ever. If the Star situation weren't a big issue Beckett wouldn't have been printing warnings for 10+ years.

    Also, you gotta figure that once PSA decided to start slabbing Star cards. PSA insiders were probably crossing over like crazy.

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    80sOPC80sOPC Posts: 1,242 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I’s also like to know why PSA didn’t grade Star recently if it wasn’t for problems with authentication? What could be the reason, considering they slab almost everything, lots more obscure then Star.

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    ReggieClevelandReggieCleveland Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CardGeek said:
    What facts am I getting wrong?

    If they didn't exclude them because they couldn't tell the difference. Why did they exclude them? To my knowledge they were officially licensed. I've also read on this forum that the guy they're getting the information on authentication from, the same guy BGS had been using, is a guy who worked for Star in the 80s and 90s. Doesn't that seem a little shady? Asking the people who may have been printing and selling these cards out the back door what is legitimate?

    I can see the incentive to remove the exclusion. When you're goin to charge guys a % of their card to grade it. And, the card has huge dollar value. Why not remove the restriction? You're the authority, right?

    You say, "The 1983 and 1984 sets were never counterfeited any more than any other card has been counterfeited." Most card don't get counterfeited at all. So, I'd say those cards were in fact counterfeited more than other cards. It also comes down to what you consider a counterfeit. If they were printed by the guy who owned the company from the original plates, just out of time, not in the intended year, are you considering that a counterfeit? If you cant tell the difference between the real ones and the fakes ones. Are they all real? They should probably call the set Star "84-presant" or "Star 84-96" probably. I know, that's a little bit of an exaggeration. Or maybe it isn't.

    If Beckett was the authority on sports cards in the 90s and they felt they needed to print warnings in their industry standard publication isn't that a huge red flag? Do any of you know the story on why that warning was printed for something like 10 years?

    I'm telling you the word on the street at that time. Maybe you were there too. Some huge percentage of business associated with sports cards are in California and Los Angeles in particular. Lot's of wealthy buyers here. Guys who can open shops and put a guy in it for an insignificant dollar amount. The guys who profit off the hype are also the guys who control the lanes of communication. It's kind of sickening.

    You're shooting from the hip based on heresay and your gut instincts. I'm telling you what was in the Federal investigation results and you're coming back at me with Beckett's Cold list. I think people heard the CEO of Star got busted for printing fake Star basketball cards and that's the extent of the information that spread like wildfire and created the urban legend. A lot of really well educated hobby folks hadn't heard what really happened until these last few years.

    But you have an opinion and you're passing it off as fact. There's nothing I can do to change your thought pattern so I just wanted to present the accurate version of the story so people could make up their own minds. I certainly don't want to clog this up with an argument.

    Arthur

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    CakesCakes Posts: 3,462 ✭✭✭✭✭

    PSA recently accepting them speaks volumes to me. I would love to own a nice Star MJ Rookie but even one with average centering is out of my price range.

    Successful coin BST transactions with Gerard and segoja.

    Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
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    CardGeekCardGeek Posts: 400 ✭✭✭
    edited August 18, 2023 10:13AM

    I don't believe we're talking about the same incident. The Shop at Home thing happened in 1997. The warnings in Beckett started in 1990. I believe the warnings were there when Basketball Beckett was first published. I understand he was busted for something. That doesn't mean he got busted for everything.

    As far as hearsay goes, I believe what was being said by the people in the hobby at the time is totally relevant. Look who's talking about it now. For the most part the people talking about it are people who stand to make money if the period accounts are lost. I'm sure there are people who will swear up and down, hand to god, that nothing out of line ever happened, too.

    I understand people wanting these cards. People also want Mantle reprints these days. It blows me away that some Mantle reprints are selling for 100 bucks. My experience in this hobby tells me that a reprint of a Mantle card should sell for about 2 dollars. Maybe you can make that 2 a 5 these days. Considering a $50 is the new $20. I'm wondering where this precedent is getting set. I don't think people generally willingly pay big dollars for reprints unless there is some precedent. 100 dollars for a piece of cardboard with a picture on it is big dollars for something that costs pennies to manufacture.

    A Star Jordan that was printed in 1985 would be a very valuable thing. A Star Jordan reprint printed in 1986 isn't anywhere near as significant. Not very much value relative to the original. Then once you hit 3rd 4th 5th 6th 10th 20th 40th printings. You're talking pennies.

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    ReggieClevelandReggieCleveland Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CardGeek said:
    I don't believe we're talking about the same incident. The Shop at Home thing happened in 1997. The warnings in Beckett started in 1990. I believe the warnings were there when Basketball Beckett was first published. I understand he was busted for something. That doesn't mean he got busted for everything.

    As far as hearsay goes, I believe what was being said by the people in the hobby at the time is totally relevant. Look who's talking about it now. For the most part the people talking about it are people who stand to make money if the period accounts are lost. I'm sure there are people who will swear up and down, hand to god, that nothing out of line ever happened, too.

    I understand people wanting these cards. People also want Mantle reprints these days. It blows me away that some Mantle reprints are selling for 100 bucks. My experience in this hobby tells me that a reprint of a Mantle card should sell for about 2 dollars. Maybe you can make that 2 a 5 these days. Considering a $50 is the new $20. I'm wondering where this president is getting set. I don't think people generally willingly pay big dollars for reprints unless there is some president. 100 dollars for a piece of cardboard with a picture on it is big dollars for something that costs pennies to manufacture.

    A Star Jordan that was printed in 1985 would be a very valuable thing. A Star Jordan reprint printed in 1986 isn't anywhere near as significant. Not very much value relative to the original. Then once you hit 3rd 4th 5th 6th 10th 20th 40th printings. You're talking pennies.

    This is literally one big block of conjecture and hearsay.

    Arthur

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    CardGeekCardGeek Posts: 400 ✭✭✭
    edited August 17, 2023 3:36PM

    The last part, I'm comparing to collectible books. Collectible records too. 1st printing of a book has lots of value. But if you go to the book store and buy one that was printed this year, it's has nearly no collectible value relative to the 1st printing.

    This same problem exists in the comic book world. CGC doesn't have the knowledge to really tell people what they have in a lot of instances. The information has likely been lost to time. But, if you know that a comic had 5-10 printings, and you're not telling the market, and instead valuing everything the same, don't you think that's a problem?

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