@1madman said:
That nasty muted paste coloration on both sides (i.e. the cleaning) is another thing that should have dropped this to AU details, in addition to my comments above. PCGS got this one wrong, it’s not unc.
This thing is a mess of a coin. I say don’t throw good money after bad by continuing to resubmit this dog, but to each their own. Sell it and move along (quickly).
Are we looking at the same coin?
I see what looks like nice luster on this one which I think you are calling "paste coloration".
A baggy coin for sure but it looks unc to me.
Lol, I almost said the same thing in my last post (“are we looking at the same coin”), when I saw everyone guessing 62, 63, 64. Look at the area in front of Liberty’s face, area to the right of the mint mark. That’s not luster. Somebody messed with this coin after it circulated or got roughed up in a bag. I also think someone took a knife to the center of the reverse, but pcgs only puts 1 detail problem in the description.
This is such a great post, and I commend the op for showing this coin, because it’s a great learning experience.
@Steven59 said:
Cleaned? True View pictures strike again. When using (Not so) True Views the title should be "Stump the Graders" not "Guess the Grade" (of the pictures).
Often, it’s difficult, if not impossible, to detect cleaning in photos. Viewing coins in hand, by tilting and rotating them under a light, is usually far more effective.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Where's the wear and a scratch or scratches that would merit a details-grade?
Thanks.
As far as the wear, the coin has an infinite number of nicks/dings all over both sides. Chatter is somewhat of an understatement. Liberty shouldn’t have 5 o’clock shadow where we see each hair stubble on a mint state coin.
As far as the scratches, they are on the reverse side eagle’s wing. Possibly graffiti, but more likely 2 or 3 semi-circular scratches.
Where's the wear and a scratch or scratches that would merit a details-grade?
Thanks.
As far as the wear, the coin has an infinite number of nicks/dings all over both sides. Chatter is somewhat of an understatement. Liberty shouldn’t have 5 o’clock shadow where we see each hair stubble on a mint state coin.
As far as the scratches, they are on the reverse side eagle’s wing. Possibly graffiti, but more likely 2 or 3 semi-circular scratches.
None of that is wear. I'm seeing MS62-63.
Most respondents didn’t think it was wear, either. Nor did PCGS, who viewed the coin in hand.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Where's the wear and a scratch or scratches that would merit a details-grade?
Thanks.
As far as the wear, the coin has an infinite number of nicks/dings all over both sides. Chatter is somewhat of an understatement. Liberty shouldn’t have 5 o’clock shadow where we see each hair stubble on a mint state coin.
As far as the scratches, they are on the reverse side eagle’s wing. Possibly graffiti, but more likely 2 or 3 semi-circular scratches.
None of that is wear. I'm seeing MS62-63.
If none of that is wear, why aren’t you guessing ms67?
NGC used to be (might still be) generous/liberal on detailed/borderline details key date coins. They would take a high end AU key date coin with a problem, and label it unc details to try and salvage some value for the submitter. Same with high end xf, they’ll do au details. I’m thinking pcgs used this same method on the peace dollar to argue it could 60, giving it unc details. It should never straight grade 60 or higher though.
Detail holders are a kiss of death, and it’s nice that the tpg companies try to do what they can to add value to the coins for the submitters. A big one that comes to mind is the buffalo nickel on the gold planchet that now straight graded.
If none of that is wear, why aren’t you guessing ms67?
This statement makes no sense to me. With the frequent exception of sliders ending up in MS62 slabs, numerical grades from MS60 to MS70 have nothing to do with wear.
If none of that is wear, why aren’t you guessing ms67?
This statement makes no sense to me. With the frequent exception of sliders ending up in MS62 slabs, numerical grades from MS60 to MS70 have nothing to do with wear.
Something caused this coin to get many tiny abrasions/hits/chatter all over the surfaces. That’s wear in the fact that this coin (for example) rattled around inside a cash register against other coins, or in someone’s pocket with keys or other coins. It doesn’t always take significant rubs on high points to drop a coin to au status. It “circulated” to some extent, as I wouldn’t call this roll fresh. And to the contrary, some coins (like Sac dollars as mentioned in another separate post) can have tons of handling and be pocket pieces and still grade ms. Plus having a coin that’s been messed with throws off the normal grading scale.
Take what the coin is giving you, and grade from that. This coin has large muted luster areas, and many nicks with some scrapes.
If none of that is wear, why aren’t you guessing ms67?
This statement makes no sense to me. With the frequent exception of sliders ending up in MS62 slabs, numerical grades from MS60 to MS70 have nothing to do with wear.
It doesn’t make sense to me, either. Clearly, even for those of us who grade the coin mint state, there are far too many flaws on it to grade it anywhere close to MS67.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If none of that is wear, why aren’t you guessing ms67?
This statement makes no sense to me. With the frequent exception of sliders ending up in MS62 slabs, numerical grades from MS60 to MS70 have nothing to do with wear.
Something caused this coin to get many tiny abrasions/hits/chatter all over the surfaces. That’s wear in the fact that this coin (for example) rattled around inside a cash register against other coins, or in someone’s pocket with keys or other coins. It doesn’t always take significant rubs on high points to drop a coin to au status. It “circulated” to some extent, as I wouldn’t call this roll fresh. And to the contrary, some coins (like Sac dollars as mentioned in another separate post) can have tons of handling and be pocket pieces and still grade ms. Plus having a coin that’s been messed with throws off the normal grading scale.
Take what the coin is giving you, and grade from that. This coin has large muted luster areas, and many nicks with some scrapes.
Like it or not, coins that have circulated are (still) graded mint state, as long as they don’t exhibit wear/rub. You even acknowledged this reality, in mentioning a post about Sacagawea dollars.
Many modern coins plucked out of circulation are graded MS65 or higher because they’re rub-free.
Even if the Peace Dollar being discussed saw circulation, based on the way coins are graded, it merits a MS grade. No matter how strongly you feel that the coin is AU, PCGS and almost everyone else who posted disagree with you. Maybe, just maybe, you’re the one who’s wrong.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I probably am the only person who graded this coin wrong, but the idea I’m trying to present to others is to scrutinize your coins closely and don’t settle. Be harsh when you examine coins, and if the coin passes the eye exam (i.e. no spots, scratches, rim dings, etc) that’s one to consider buying. This peace dollar in pcgs ms63 price guide is $7,500. Would anyone who guessed ms63 as the grade pay approximately that value?
If none of that is wear, why aren’t you guessing ms67?
This statement makes no sense to me. With the frequent exception of sliders ending up in MS62 slabs, numerical grades from MS60 to MS70 have nothing to do with wear.
Neither does what he said about the scratches being wear.
Comments
Lol, I almost said the same thing in my last post (“are we looking at the same coin”), when I saw everyone guessing 62, 63, 64. Look at the area in front of Liberty’s face, area to the right of the mint mark. That’s not luster. Somebody messed with this coin after it circulated or got roughed up in a bag. I also think someone took a knife to the center of the reverse, but pcgs only puts 1 detail problem in the description.
This is such a great post, and I commend the op for showing this coin, because it’s a great learning experience.
I call it dipped...If it straight grades no better than 61
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Often, it’s difficult, if not impossible, to detect cleaning in photos. Viewing coins in hand, by tilting and rotating them under a light, is usually far more effective.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
None of that is wear. I'm seeing MS62-63.
Most respondents didn’t think it was wear, either. Nor did PCGS, who viewed the coin in hand.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If none of that is wear, why aren’t you guessing ms67?
NGC used to be (might still be) generous/liberal on detailed/borderline details key date coins. They would take a high end AU key date coin with a problem, and label it unc details to try and salvage some value for the submitter. Same with high end xf, they’ll do au details. I’m thinking pcgs used this same method on the peace dollar to argue it could 60, giving it unc details. It should never straight grade 60 or higher though.
Detail holders are a kiss of death, and it’s nice that the tpg companies try to do what they can to add value to the coins for the submitters. A big one that comes to mind is the buffalo nickel on the gold planchet that now straight graded.
This statement makes no sense to me. With the frequent exception of sliders ending up in MS62 slabs, numerical grades from MS60 to MS70 have nothing to do with wear.
Something caused this coin to get many tiny abrasions/hits/chatter all over the surfaces. That’s wear in the fact that this coin (for example) rattled around inside a cash register against other coins, or in someone’s pocket with keys or other coins. It doesn’t always take significant rubs on high points to drop a coin to au status. It “circulated” to some extent, as I wouldn’t call this roll fresh. And to the contrary, some coins (like Sac dollars as mentioned in another separate post) can have tons of handling and be pocket pieces and still grade ms. Plus having a coin that’s been messed with throws off the normal grading scale.
Take what the coin is giving you, and grade from that. This coin has large muted luster areas, and many nicks with some scrapes.
I was going to guess 61-62. TrueView pictures are nice but they are no totally representative of what a coin looks like in hand.
Apparently the quality of the surfaces failed to meet expectations...sorry for the grade
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
It doesn’t make sense to me, either. Clearly, even for those of us who grade the coin mint state, there are far too many flaws on it to grade it anywhere close to MS67.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
62
Like it or not, coins that have circulated are (still) graded mint state, as long as they don’t exhibit wear/rub. You even acknowledged this reality, in mentioning a post about Sacagawea dollars.
Many modern coins plucked out of circulation are graded MS65 or higher because they’re rub-free.
Even if the Peace Dollar being discussed saw circulation, based on the way coins are graded, it merits a MS grade. No matter how strongly you feel that the coin is AU, PCGS and almost everyone else who posted disagree with you. Maybe, just maybe, you’re the one who’s wrong.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
62
I probably am the only person who graded this coin wrong, but the idea I’m trying to present to others is to scrutinize your coins closely and don’t settle. Be harsh when you examine coins, and if the coin passes the eye exam (i.e. no spots, scratches, rim dings, etc) that’s one to consider buying. This peace dollar in pcgs ms63 price guide is $7,500. Would anyone who guessed ms63 as the grade pay approximately that value?
Neither does what he said about the scratches being wear.