Goldbacks - Are they scrip or tokens?

jmlanzaf

Supposedly they are spendable at selected retailers in a couple states. So, for the sake of the poll, let's take that as a given. They are embossed 24 karat gold foil. No paper.

I got mine from Vault Box.

U1chicago

Scrip - look at it

Closer look to what I see as scrip than a token

steve76020

oooohaaaaah pretty paper most are 1/1000 of troy oz of gold

steve76020

if my mathematics are correct 10 dollars in goldbacks is 1/100 of oz. gold shouldnt the be worth approx 19 dollars in greenback and $1 goldback 1/1000 oz is worth 4.01 greenback hmm im getting confused as to where this was going

WQuarterFreddie

Typing this from my jail cell. Love the view of the water by the way....

JM...I recommend you take VaultBox out of your thread title. They are not an exclusive VB product.

Here is link for more information on the history of the Goldback:

https://www.goldback.com/

ifthevamzarockin

@WQuarterFreddie said:
Typing this from my jail cell.

That's one way to keep you from posting new Vaultbox threads.

ctf_error_coins

This is becoming Ridiculous

TomB

I realize this isn't in your question, but thought it might be included to avoid confusion about these. They aren't made by the states. Rather, they are made by a private company for any group or individual who sponsors their production for a given state as long as that state does not have any statutes that prohibit the use of Goldbacks as voluntary barter.

In other words, anyone can sponsor a series of Goldback notes for any state as long as the state doesn't legally prohibit their voluntary use in barter. You have to get in touch with the private company and have to be willing to put up about $400,000 of your own money so that they will buy the gold, design and produce the notes, and then make them available for purchase to be collected or used in commerce.

So they aren't produced under the authorization of states and they aren't produced at the request of states, but are instead produced at the request of groups or individuals in the name of states where the potential use is not legally prohibited.

So, are they scrip? I don't believe they are from my understanding of the word. Could they be tokens? In my opinion, they fall more closely into that definition. However, I would suspect that more folks would think of them as scrip than think of them as tokens.

WQuarterFreddie

@steve76020 said:
if my mathematics are correct 10 dollars in goldbacks is 1/100 of oz. gold shouldnt the be worth approx 19 dollars in greenback and $1 goldback 1/1000 oz is worth 4.01 greenback hmm im getting confused as to where this was going

I believe the value of a Goldback fluctuates with the commodity gold price.

To be clear, Goldbacks are not legal tender, but they are valid for barter, trade, discounts.

https://www.goldback.com/

WQuarterFreddie

@steve76020 said:
oooohaaaaah pretty paper most are 1/1000 of troy oz of gold

They have different denominations of 1,5,10, 25 and 50 so each denomination has corresponding amount of troy ounce gold.

jmlanzaf

Token - there's no paper

@TomB said:
I realize this isn't in your question, but thought it might be included to avoid confusion about these. They aren't made by the states. Rather, they are made by a private company for any group or individual who sponsors their production for a given state as long as that state does not have any statutes that prohibit the use of Goldbacks as voluntary barter.

In other words, anyone can sponsor a series of Goldback notes for any state as long as the state doesn't legally prohibit their voluntary use in barter. You have to get in touch with the private company and have to be willing to put up about $400,000 of your own money so that they will buy the gold, design and produce the notes, and then make them available for purchase to be collected or used in commerce.

So they aren't produced under the authorization of states and they aren't produced at the request of states, but are instead produced at the request of groups or individuals in the name of states where the potential use is not legally prohibited.

So, are they scrip? I don't believe they are from my understanding of the word. Could they be tokens? In my opinion, they fall more closely into that definition. However, I would suspect that more folks would think of them as scrip than think of them as tokens.

Excellent summary.

That's the thing, they LOOK like scrip but there is no paper.

WQuarterFreddie

@ctf_error_coins said:
This is becoming Ridiculous

YOU CAN TYPE WORDS? I thought you only posted Memes to express yourself!😂🤣

steve76020

but a 50 note cost you 390 dollars and contains 94 dollars worth of gold so you lose they win

jmlanzaf

Token - there's no paper

@steve76020 said:
oooohaaaaah pretty paper most are 1/1000 of troy oz of gold

No paper.

@steve76020 said:
if my mathematics are correct 10 dollars in goldbacks is 1/100 of oz. gold shouldnt the be worth approx 19 dollars in greenback and $1 goldback 1/1000 oz is worth 4.01 greenback hmm im getting confused as to where this was going

Value issue is a little off topic. I'm just interested in how people would classify them.

jmlanzaf

Token - there's no paper

@ctf_error_coins said:
This is becoming Ridiculous

It's a legitimate question. They look like scrip but there is no paper.

WQuarterFreddie

Deleted. Duplicate

ctf_error_coins

@jmlanzaf said:

@ctf_error_coins said:
This is becoming Ridiculous

It's a legitimate question. They look like scrip but there is no paper.

you took Vaultbox out of your title LMAO

now my response doesn't make sense because of your edited out VB from the title.

jmlanzaf

Token - there's no paper

@WQuarterFreddie said:

Deleted. Duplicate

I already did... although that really shouldn't be necessary. Really? You're calling it inflammatory,

jmlanzaf

Token - there's no paper

@ctf_error_coins said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@ctf_error_coins said:
This is becoming Ridiculous

It's a legitimate question. They look like scrip but there is no paper.

you took Vaultbox out of your title LMAO

It seems to blind people with rage for some odd reason.

ctf_error_coins

@jmlanzaf said:

@ctf_error_coins said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@ctf_error_coins said:
This is becoming Ridiculous

It's a legitimate question. They look like scrip but there is no paper.

you took Vaultbox out of your title LMAO

It seems to blind people with rage for some odd reason.

Promotion of a scam pisses us off, get it.

jmlanzaf

Token - there's no paper

WQuarterFreddie

@ctf_error_coins said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@ctf_error_coins said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@ctf_error_coins said:
This is becoming Ridiculous

It's a legitimate question. They look like scrip but there is no paper.

you took Vaultbox out of your title LMAO

It seems to blind people with rage for some odd reason.

Promotion of a scam pisses us off, get it.

I like your Memes better. You should stick with them.

ctf_error_coins

@WQuarterFreddie said:

@ctf_error_coins said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@ctf_error_coins said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@ctf_error_coins said:
This is becoming Ridiculous

It's a legitimate question. They look like scrip but there is no paper.

you took Vaultbox out of your title LMAO

It seems to blind people with rage for some odd reason.

Promotion of a scam pisses us off, get it.

I like your Memes better. You should stick with them.

The truth hurts.

jmlanzaf

Token - there's no paper

@ctf_error_coins said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@ctf_error_coins said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@ctf_error_coins said:
This is becoming Ridiculous

It's a legitimate question. They look like scrip but there is no paper.

you took Vaultbox out of your title LMAO

It seems to blind people with rage for some odd reason.

Promotion of a scam pisses us off, get it.

Coming from a Bitcoin speculator.

It is not a s*^'. THAT is inflammatory. It's a lottery.

It's a effing gold foil note.

ctf_error_coins

@jmlanzaf said:

@ctf_error_coins said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@ctf_error_coins said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@ctf_error_coins said:
This is becoming Ridiculous

It's a legitimate question. They look like scrip but there is no paper.

you took Vaultbox out of your title LMAO

It seems to blind people with rage for some odd reason.

Promotion of a scam pisses us off, get it.

Coming from a Bitcoin speculator.

It is not a s*^'. THAT is inflammatory. It's a lottery.

I made a mistake and admit it.

I will never buy crypto again.

I gamble in the stock market daily.

I invest in coins.

WQuarterFreddie

@ctf_error_coins said:

@WQuarterFreddie said:

@ctf_error_coins said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@ctf_error_coins said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@ctf_error_coins said:
This is becoming Ridiculous

It's a legitimate question. They look like scrip but there is no paper.

you took Vaultbox out of your title LMAO

It seems to blind people with rage for some odd reason.

Promotion of a scam pisses us off, get it.

I like your Memes better. You should stick with them.

The truth hurts.

Nope that's not it. 😂🤣

jmlanzaf

Token - there's no paper

@ctf_error_coins said:

@WQuarterFreddie said:

@ctf_error_coins said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@ctf_error_coins said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@ctf_error_coins said:
This is becoming Ridiculous

It's a legitimate question. They look like scrip but there is no paper.

you took Vaultbox out of your title LMAO

It seems to blind people with rage for some odd reason.

Promotion of a scam pisses us off, get it.

I like your Memes better. You should stick with them.

The truth hurts.

Please stay on topic. It's a gold foil something.

jmlanzaf

Token - there's no paper

@steve76020 said:
but a 50 note cost you 390 dollars and contains 94 dollars worth of gold so you lose they win

Not sure where you're getting those numbers. The 1000th note costs $3.90 and contains $1.95 in gold.

[Much lower premium than U.S. Mint commems]. And that really is besides the point. You can't expect them to make and distribute a note for the same cost as the bullion. $2 seems like a reasonable premium.

jmlanzaf

Token - there's no paper

@ctf_error_coins said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@ctf_error_coins said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@ctf_error_coins said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@ctf_error_coins said:
This is becoming Ridiculous

It's a legitimate question. They look like scrip but there is no paper.

you took Vaultbox out of your title LMAO

It seems to blind people with rage for some odd reason.

Promotion of a scam pisses us off, get it.

Coming from a Bitcoin speculator.

It is not a s*^'. THAT is inflammatory. It's a lottery.

I made a mistake and admit it.

I will never buy crypto again.

I gamble in the stock market daily.

I invest in coins.

Couldn't I gamble on coins and invest in the stock market?

And I still speculate in Ethereum. It's my right to play the games I want.

But the question du jour is scrip vs token?

WQuarterFreddie

@jmlanzaf

Maybe you should just change this from a poll to a regular discussion. I think others will find them an interesting item.

Upon review of the Goldback website I learned their history and more about the artists that designed them however you may get flagged as a non coin related discussion.

Learning about that in the law library here at the jail😂🤣

jmlanzaf

Token - there's no paper

@WQuarterFreddie said:
@jmlanzaf

Maybe you should just change this from a poll to a regular discussion. I think others will find them an interesting item.

Upon review of the Goldback website I learned their history and more about the artists that designed them however you may get flagged as a non coin related discussion.

Learning about that in the law library here at the jail😂🤣

I think they are tokens which makes them exonumia and coin related. They aren't paper money.

ctf_error_coins

JM, this is a coin forum and you promote something that most all old timers feel is a product that is taking advantage of novice coin collectors.

WQuarterFreddie

@ctf_error_coins said:
JM, this is a coin forum and you promote something that most all old timers feel is a product that is taking advantage of novice coin collectors.

You hit the nail on the head. You old timers bemoan the fact that there isn't any young blood entering the hobby then attack anything new or fight new technology that younger people embrace.

jmlanzaf

Token - there's no paper

@ctf_error_coins said:
JM, this is a coin forum and you promote something that most all old timers feel is a product that is taking advantage of novice coin collectors.

It's a damn gold foil note.

But you are so blinded by irrational anger, you can't stay on topic.

Please write an angry letter to the California state lottery.

jmlanzaf

Token - there's no paper

PMG seems to be in the scrip camp.

WQuarterFreddie

@jmlanzaf said:

@WQuarterFreddie said:
@jmlanzaf

Maybe you should just change this from a poll to a regular discussion. I think others will find them an interesting item.

Upon review of the Goldback website I learned their history and more about the artists that designed them however you may get flagged as a non coin related discussion.

Learning about that in the law library here at the jail😂🤣

I think they are tokens which makes them exonumia and coin related. They aren't paper money.

Ok. That is good enough for me. I love the Goldbacks. Beautiful artwork!

jmlanzaf

Token - there's no paper

@WQuarterFreddie said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@WQuarterFreddie said:
@jmlanzaf

Maybe you should just change this from a poll to a regular discussion. I think others will find them an interesting item.

Upon review of the Goldback website I learned their history and more about the artists that designed them however you may get flagged as a non coin related discussion.

Learning about that in the law library here at the jail😂🤣

I think they are tokens which makes them exonumia and coin related. They aren't paper money.

Ok. That is good enough for me. I love the Goldbacks. Beautiful artwork!

They really are very attractive. I think the higher denominations are a bit pricey but the lower denominations are very inexpensive.

And I'm having a hard time not buying the damn Gabon note...

JoeLewis

I wasn’t aware scrip had to be made of paper, although private currency and store credit scrip happens to always (almost always?) be made of paper.

Perhaps there is overlap with what tokens and scrip are.

jmlanzaf

Token - there's no paper

@JoeLewis said:
I wasn’t aware scrip had to be made of paper, although private currency and store credit scrip happens to always (almost always?) be made of paper.

Perhaps there is overlap with what tokens and scrip are.

Now that you say that, I need to look it up.

Dictionary says "certificate" but doesn't specify material.

That's why I find it confusing. Maybe it could be either???

ifthevamzarockin

A note or script doesn't have to be made of paper, many countries are using polymer notes.

messydesk

Token - there's no paper

Scrip more like an IOU with limited opportunity for redemption. It doesn't have to be on paper. It can be on anything that has little to no tangible value. They seem more like tokens to me, given the choice. The denomination "Goldback" seems to be simply a convenient measurement of a small amount of gold with a catchy name.

To throw some gasoline on the discussion, how are these different from NORFED Liberty coins? How are they the same?

jmlanzaf

Token - there's no paper

@ifthevamzarockin said:
A note or script doesn't have to be made of paper, many countries are using polymer notes.

But metal...? Paper and polymers are chemically similar. Paper could be right off as a cellulose polymer.

Does a coin or token need to be round?

How would you distinguish? Or are all tokens also scrip and all scrip also tokens?

ifthevamzarockin

@jmlanzaf said:

@ifthevamzarockin said:
A note or script doesn't have to be made of paper, many countries are using polymer notes.

But metal...? Paper and polymers are chemically similar. Paper could be right off as a cellulose polymer.

Does a coin or token need to be round?

How would you distinguish? Or are all tokens also scrip and all scrip also tokens?

In your OP you said "No Paper" I was just addressing that a note or script doesn't need to be made of paper.
I know better than to get drawn into a debate with you on chemical make up.

No, a coin or token doesn't need to be round, there are other shapes used for coins & tokens like square or octagon.
The shape plays a part in the equation, the Goldbacks are the shape and size of a note or script.
If you walked up to a vending machine would you put your Goldback in the bill validator or the coin slot?

The example you posted says "Exchangeable to bearer on demand", it is a bearer on demand note.

jmlanzaf

Token - there's no paper

@ifthevamzarockin said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@ifthevamzarockin said:
A note or script doesn't have to be made of paper, many countries are using polymer notes.

But metal...? Paper and polymers are chemically similar. Paper could be right off as a cellulose polymer.

Does a coin or token need to be round?

How would you distinguish? Or are all tokens also scrip and all scrip also tokens?

In your OP you said "No Paper" I was just addressing that a note or script doesn't need to be made of paper.
I know better than to get drawn into a debate with you on chemical make up.

No, a coin or token doesn't need to be round, there are other shapes used for coins & tokens like square or octagon.
The shape plays a part in the equation, the Goldbacks are the shape and size of a note or script.
If you walked up to a vending machine would you put your Goldback in the bill validator or the coin slot?

The example you posted says "Exchangeable to bearer on demand", it is a bearer on demand note.

I would love it if a vending machine took it.

Honestly, I'm really not sure. I want to lean toward token based on composition and method of manufacture but scrip also fits. And the more I think about it, the more I'm unsure how to distinguish a token from scrip.

ifthevamzarockin

@jmlanzaf said:
I would love it if a vending machine took it.

So if a vending machine would take it would you put it in the bill validator or the coin slot?

JBK

Over the past hundred years we've had scrip or tokens or whatever made of wood (rounds or sheets), leather, porcelain, seashells, cloth, and other materials.

I don't think the material involved in necessarily the determining factor.

291fifth

They are made-for-collector collectibles that resemble a form of notgeld more than anything else.

Vasanti

@291fifth said:
They are made-for-collector collectibles that resemble a form of notgeld more than anything else.

That’s a good way to describe it.

jmlanzaf

Token - there's no paper

@291fifth said:
They are made-for-collector collectibles that resemble a form of notgeld more than anything else.

@Vasanti said:

@291fifth said:
They are made-for-collector collectibles that resemble a form of notgeld more than anything else.

That’s a good way to describe it.

Notgeld weren't stamped in gold. That would make them "geld".

tyler267

I don't know

@TomB said:
I realize this isn't in your question, but thought it might be included to avoid confusion about these. They aren't made by the states. Rather, they are made by a private company for any group or individual who sponsors their production for a given state as long as that state does not have any statutes that prohibit the use of Goldbacks as voluntary barter.

In other words, anyone can sponsor a series of Goldback notes for any state as long as the state doesn't legally prohibit their voluntary use in barter. You have to get in touch with the private company and have to be willing to put up about $400,000 of your own money so that they will buy the gold, design and produce the notes, and then make them available for purchase to be collected or used in commerce.

So they aren't produced under the authorization of states and they aren't produced at the request of states, but are instead produced at the request of groups or individuals in the name of states where the potential use is not legally prohibited.

So, are they scrip? I don't believe they are from my understanding of the word. Could they be tokens? In my opinion, they fall more closely into that definition. However, I would suspect that more folks would think of them as scrip than think of them as tokens.

If a sponsor puts up 400k do they get the all notes produced or do they share in the premium as the notes are sold?

BucketHead

How do you know that it’s not a token that identifies as script?