When signature priority shipping says delivered but it has no, when do you report coins stolen?

Aspie_Rocco

At what point do I report coins stolen and to whom?

I mailed a quantity of graded coins usps priority mail with signature required. Tracking showed delivered on the 19th.

I ensured the buyer would be home before shipping and sent tracking information. Shipment took three days and “arrived” on the 19th.
Buyer contacted me yesterday on 24th saying “I didn’t get it yet”
The buyer had asked for tracking information more than a week before I had shipped. When discussing the problem yesterday buyer said they “don’t pay attention to tracking”

Buyer says they called post office and a temporary employee was delivering mail that day, GPS shows scan on porch of address.

Signature is not the addressee, in fact the buyer tells me it is only a straight line and the digital initials entered are not the addressee.

What would you do now?

Additional background info:
I made a deal to sell a decent group of pcgs and pcgs CAC coins paid for with a personal check. I told buyer I would ship three weeks after check clears.
Buyer asked for tracking the day check arrived. I reiterated the three week wait. After a week and a half I called my bank to discuss the check and verify funds. I never sell by check to strangers but made an exception for this transaction. My bank assured me funds are all good, so I mailed after waiting only 1.5 weeks.

No attempts have been made to add any of the coins to any registry yet.

gtstang

Find out from the post office (postmaster) if when it is scanned as delivered, if a pic is taken to see if the location matches.

JBK

I'm starting to get a wiff of scam.

They started asking for tracking three weeks early? 🤔

They could easily have done the line signature to set up the scenario we have here. I'd also stop relying on his explanations and I'd call the PO myself to validate what he's told you.

Checks can have a stop payment placed weeks or even months later, as far as I know.

logger7

I agree there are too many scams that people are playing, but there's nothing entirely novel, just variations and prior ones. I'd try to find others who may have been scammed like this. Sometimes talking on the phone with a potential customer you get a better sense. Scammers are less likely to negotiate lower pricing.

I used to deal with a bullion dealer on the West coast who would ship multi-thousand dollar orders based on my word and others he trusted, just wanted to know the check was in the mail. That demonstrated a lot of trust.

Aspie_Rocco

So far from my tracking I can see that it was signed for but the initials given were A.A. Which is not the buyer. Buyer initials from end and middle of alphabet.

I know my postal worker puts signature packages in my lock box so when shipping this package I specifically told the clerk it 100% HAD to be signed for by the addressee, not put in a box or left on porch. In hindsight registered mail should have been shipping choice.

The buyer was a tough negotiator, working to get lowest prices possible over a few weeks of discussions. So I felt a little better that they were not just compliant/ok with every quoted price.

logger7

"A.A", what were the initials of the buyer? Probably doesn't matter if the guy is a scammer as it wouldn't make a difference as to whether the postal worker would want to verify it.

As far as I'm concerned you fulfilled your job as a prudent seller. Let the buyer do the work of finding what happened if they're honest. Why would a complete stranger to collectible coins be willing to sign for something like this? Let the customer sue you before you even think about refunding them. No judge is going to side with him without real evidence. Every signature required transaction where customers claim they didn't get their merchandise or claim they didn't would totally mess with the whole process.

jmlanzaf

I'm not sure why we've settled on the buyer is a scammer. If it truly is a mistaken delivery or postal theft, I'm pretty sure the buyer thinks the OP is the scammer.

slider23

Most likely the package was delivered to a neighbor's house near the buyer's house by the inexperienced postal worker. To my knowledge the GPS can not pinpoint the exact spot of the scan as the scan area is a couple of houses wide. The buyer needs to go knocking on the neighbor's doors to see if they received the package. You are almost past the point of recovery as the postal worker is most likely not going to remember a package from a week ago. If you have insurance, it is time to make a claim.

As the seller you may want to consider taking the position that the package was delivered to the buyer per signature and GPS. I have been on the short end as a buyer of two lost coins that tracking and GPS showed delivery but I never received the coins, and both of these occurred with a temp postal carrier.

Aspie_Rocco

So when should I report the coins stolen or is this the buyers responsibility?

JBK

It shows as delivered but supposedly wasn't. The best time to act was then. The second best time to act is now.

I would think both of you would/should be rattling the cage at the PO to find out where the package is.

If the buyer is silent, knowing the package is lost, that would make me even more worried.

I am not sure how an insurance claim will work since tracking shows as signed for and delivered.

jmlanzaf

@Aspie_Rocco said:
So when should I report the coins stolen or is this the buyers responsibility?

You (or he) should have already opened a case with the PO to locate the coins. This should have been done as soon as they were (allegedly) marked as delivered but not actually received.

You can probably never report them as "stolen" as they are marked delivered. Missing isn't the same as stolen.

I think all complaints have to go through the post office. A police report would simply lose jurisdiction to the federal postal authorities.

I also think any complaint needs to come from the recipient. You can't testify that he didn't receive them. It's hearsay. You have no way of actually knowing whether he did or didn't receive them.

gumby1234

I bought some coins recently from a member here that I have done transactions with before. I was home waiting for the package to be delivered. I checked the tracking after a few hours and it said it was left with customer and signed for. It was not. I called USPS and there was a long wait so opted for them to call me back when someone was available. While I was waiting for a return call I went around to neighbors asking if they had received my package. I found it along with all of my mail two doors down from my house. A minute later the Post office called back and I told them the issue had been resolved.

The USPS service has gone down. They didn't have my neighbor sign for the package even. The postal worker scribbles a signature and drops the package wherever they feel like it.

slider23

There is still a chance that the package will show up as the person with the package may return it to the post office. If I am the buyer, I would contact the postal carrier about the signature and delivery of the package. The post office can also have a photo of the package when going through sorting that can be helpful in locating the package.

davewesen

USPS has time stamps on signatures and would not surprise me if also had gps. My eBay deliveries show time delivered long before they return to post office.

Alltheabove76

@JBK said:
I'm starting to get a wiff of scam.

They started asking for tracking three weeks early? 🤔

They could easily have done the line signature to set up the scenario we have here. I'd also stop relying on his explanations and I'd call the PO myself to validate what he's told you.

Checks can have a stop payment placed weeks or even months later, as far as I know.

Absolutely cannot stop payment on a check "weeks or months" after it has cleared. Once it clears, unless there is a claim that it was a forged check, it is a settled item.

JBK

@Alltheabove76 said:

@JBK said:
I'm starting to get a wiff of scam.

They started asking for tracking three weeks early? 🤔

They could easily have done the line signature to set up the scenario we have here. I'd also stop relying on his explanations and I'd call the PO myself to validate what he's told you.

Checks can have a stop payment placed weeks or even months later, as far as I know.

Absolutely cannot stop payment on a check "weeks or months" after it has cleared. Once it clears, unless there is a claim that it was a forged check, it is a settled item.

That certainly is the general rule, but I have heard of paid certified checks, for example, being bounced after having initially cleared.

Also, a paid personal check can sometimes be reversed if fraud or identity theft is involved. (Perhaps "stop payment" is not the correct term, so "reverse payment").

It is unlikely in the OP's scenario, but scammers are getting more creative all the time.

PerryHall

@JBK said:

@Alltheabove76 said:

@JBK said:
I'm starting to get a wiff of scam.

They started asking for tracking three weeks early? 🤔

They could easily have done the line signature to set up the scenario we have here. I'd also stop relying on his explanations and I'd call the PO myself to validate what he's told you.

Checks can have a stop payment placed weeks or even months later, as far as I know.

Absolutely cannot stop payment on a check "weeks or months" after it has cleared. Once it clears, unless there is a claim that it was a forged check, it is a settled item.

That certainly is the general rule, but I have heard of paid certified checks, for example, being bounced after having initially cleared.

Also, a paid personal check can sometimes be reversed if fraud or identity theft is involved. (Perhaps "stop payment" is not the correct term, so "reverse payment").

It is unlikely in the OP's scenario, but scammers are getting more creative all the time.

I think the proper term for your bank getting your money back from a cashed check is a "claw back".

Aspie_Rocco

Because I was a little nervous dealing with a mostly unknown customer, I had the buyer send an email and text message authorizing the check in exchange for the coins to prevent any possible funny business with the personal check.
Hopefully all the bases are covered with that.

I asked buyer yesterday for a second time to check with their neighbors, and they replied “The post man is going to ask both neighbors”
At this point I kind of did an internal “wow” and stopped stressing so hard. The “postman” has been questionable since the 19th. Why rely on a stranger to recover valuable personal property?
If I had a package of this value disappear I would check with every nearby residence and show photos of the package. (I photograph all shipments, items, and packaging over $500 in value and send customers the photos before and after shipping)

JBK

Sounds like you've done your part. Not sure why the buyer is not more concerned.

If, and that's if, this is a scam, maybe the buyer figures you'll get an insurance payout to reimburse him with. I'm not sure the PO will pay in this case, though. And the longer it goes, the colder the trail gets (maybe that's part of the plan).

I know that if I were a buyer who was missing a package under these circumstances I'd be going ballistic right now.

Glen2022

@gumby1234 said:
I bought some coins recently from a member here that I have done transactions with before. I was home waiting for the package to be delivered. I checked the tracking after a few hours and it said it was left with customer and signed for. It was not. I called USPS and there was a long wait so opted for them to call me back when someone was available. While I was waiting for a return call I went around to neighbors asking if they had received my package. I found it along with all of my mail two doors down from my house. A minute later the Post office called back and I told them the issue had been resolved.

The USPS service has gone down. They didn't have my neighbor sign for the package even. The postal worker scribbles a signature and drops the package wherever they feel like it.

The issue was not resolved. Someone forged the signature on receipt. You should have filed a formal complaint with the local Postmaster and rattled their cage. If you do not get satisfaction, file a complaint with your elected Senator and/or Congressman (for whatever good that might do!!!).

You or the sender did not get what was paid for, a valid signature of recipient. Even though the cost is small, you or the sender were not given the services paid for. If everyone who experiences this complains, perhaps something will be done by the PO

ricko

In this situation, if I were the seller, I would have initiated action at the Post Office immediately. Good luck with your problem, and let us know what happens - such situations could help others in seeking resolution. Cheers, RickO

M4Madness

I had a $3K coin coming signature required recently. I had no idea that it needed a signature until I came home and found a notice from the post office on my door. I made arrangements for my wife to pick it up right before they closed the next day -- she barely gets home in time and I do not.

Imagine how freaked out I was the next day when I got a delivery notice on my phone when neither of us were home! I did not recognize the name that signed for it, so I knew it wasn't a neighbor within a mile either direction, and it wasn't my carrier's name. It turns out that my carrier signed my first name and the seller's last name (I didn't know his last name) and left it in my mailbox. A call from work to the post office yielded no answers. I about had a panic attack until I got home four hours later. Lol!

MFeld

@ricko said:
In this situation, if I were the seller, I would have initiated action at the Post Office immediately. Good luck with your problem, and let us know what happens - such situations could help others in seeking resolution. Cheers, RickO

If I were the buyer, I would have initiated action at the Post Office immediately.

Manifest_Destiny

I've had enough of these issues that I doubt anyone is a scammer. It most likely went to a neighbor, and yes, since covid signature protocols, the driver can just sign and drop it without actually interacting with anyone.

Bochiman

Might be buyer, might be the temp's major f' up.
I bought a couple gold coins (~$5000 worth) from a forum member.
He sent them express overnight.
I go down to the post office to pick them up (I was home, but they did the 'no knock, leave a note, and run' routine, so I called and went right down.

I get there and they search and search. Can't find the package. They get the postal manager. 10 minutes later he comes up to me (he recognizes me as I was getting a lot of signature required packages) and says it isn't there.
I told him it was irreplaceable AND insured for $5000.

He asked me to go home and they would get it figured out. Seems that the temp guy gave it to someone else who came in to pick up their accumulated mail from the past week that had been on hold. Our addresses/names were NOT even close. Miles away and very different numbers.

Less than an hour later, they drove up to my house with the package and apologized. They had to track the guy down at his work to get the package back and then drive it to me.

So, it can be a mess but it may not be the buyer's fault (not ruling him out, just introducing a real life case that seems a little similar in which it was the f'up of the temp postal guy.

RLSnapper

I just picked up a coin from my Post Office that required a signature...it was under $500 in value so I wasn't home as every other time it gets left in my mailbox. At the post office I gave them the slip, got the package, signed for it and left. No problem....except the tracking says it is still at the post office....this is 2 days after I pick it up. I contacted the seller to let him know all was well. I see why PCGS uses FEDEX now. USPS is a mess right now!

MetroD

@Manifest_Destiny said:
I've had enough of these issues that I doubt anyone is a scammer. It most likely went to a neighbor, and yes, since covid signature protocols, the driver can just sign and drop it without actually interacting with anyone.

NOT saying that it doesn't happen, but I do not believe that the COVID-era policies are still officially in effect.

Cannot find anything current on the USPS website about 'signature services' being suspended. Was, however, able to locate a modified procedure from 2020 that still required human interaction, else the "notice left" process was supposed to be followed.

My point- I think that the carriers are supposed to be getting signatures from customers when they are required.

TwoSides2aCoin

The seller fulfilled his obligation. So did the buyer. Reality shows the issue is at receiving end. There is nothing for you ( the seller) to do. Go have a glass of iced tea, maybe.

jmlanzaf

@MFeld said:

@ricko said:
In this situation, if I were the seller, I would have initiated action at the Post Office immediately. Good luck with your problem, and let us know what happens - such situations could help others in seeking resolution. Cheers, RickO

If I were the buyer, I would have initiated action at the Post Office immediately.

Agree. There's little a shipper can do about a delivered package.

logger7

I was checking with NGC today on shipping options and since usps corporate express was discontinued they were giving the option for submitters to provide their own pre-paid express label but discontinued that. FedEx has become their shipper of choice unless you have a usps po box. Why general delivery is not an option I don't know. If you have FedEx you either have to wait around for hours for the package which I consider a burdensome encumbrance, or have it dropped off at a drug store so you can pick it up the next day.

I'm wondering if insurance denied a claim due to a mismatched delivery signed for by the carrier or someone whose id was not checked out or verified, whether you could sue in court for restitution.

davewesen

There are many different tolerances for risk in the coin collector / coin dealer community. For some people a $3-5 K shipment may be an every couple day occurrence. For others once every couple of years.

I hope things work out for you.

derryb

You don't report them stolen, Post Office has reported them delivered. Up to buyer to report them stolen, they were stolen from him after they were reported as delivered. USPS Insurance won't honor a claim once "delivered." If an ebay sale ebay now views them delivered. The missing coins are an issue between the buyer and USPS. This is why a buyer should closely monitor tracking and be ready to take action with the post office carrier immediately upon an incorrect "delivered."

Pnies20

If the buyer isn’t going to the post office to help find out what happened, that would raise a red flag for me.

Obviously, if he is scamming you he can’t go.

jmlanzaf

@derryb said:
You don't report them stolen, Post Office has reported them delivered. Up to buyer to report them stolen, they were stolen from him after they were reported as delivered. USPS Insurance won't honor a claim once "delivered." If an ebay sale ebay now views them delivered. The missing coins are an issue between the buyer and USPS. This is why a buyer should closely monitor tracking and be ready to take action with the post office carrier immediately upon an incorrect "delivered."

This is true but it is amazing to me how many times a buyer refuses to do anything. I had an eBay customer who claimed he didn't get a package that was marked delivered. He asked me to contact the PO and trace it. I told him the quickest route was for HIM to contact his local PO and see if they put it in the wrong box. He wanted me to do something because he was busy until Tuesday (this was Saturday). I said, "Tuesday could be too late and I can't actually file anything with the PO after only 3 days and when the scan says delivered". Tuesday he told me they found it after he contacted them. But it boggled my mind that he felt I should be the one to do something when the only one who could claim non-receipt was him.

jmlanzaf

@Pnies20 said:
If the buyer isn’t going to the post office to help find out what happened, that would raise a red flag for me.

Obviously, if he is scamming you he can’t go.

See my earlier post. Some buyers believe sole responsibility for shipping issues fall on the seller.

Pnies20

@jmlanzaf said:

@Pnies20 said:
If the buyer isn’t going to the post office to help find out what happened, that would raise a red flag for me.

Obviously, if he is scamming you he can’t go.

See my earlier post. Some buyers believe sole responsibility for shipping issues fall on the seller.

Some people think any number of things. People want the coins they paid for. If he’s uninterested it’s a red flag.

If he asks for a refund without looking into it, I would initiate something as the seller.

jmlanzaf

@Pnies20 said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@Pnies20 said:
If the buyer isn’t going to the post office to help find out what happened, that would raise a red flag for me.

Obviously, if he is scamming you he can’t go.

See my earlier post. Some buyers believe sole responsibility for shipping issues fall on the seller.

Some people think any number of things. People want the coins they paid for. If he’s uninterested it’s a red flag.

I can't tell you how many times I've had buyers refuse to do anything. It could be a red flag. It could also just be a lazy customer.

I recently had a customer in Israel. Tracking showed that it was being held in customs. He told me to do something about it. I said, I can't pay the duty or whatever they need to clear it to you. He contacted eBay to have them do something about it. He literally wouldn't even try to contact customs even though the tracking showed it was there.

There was the case above that I already posted.

I also had a customer who contacted me a couple months back with another delivered/not delivered package. Same thing. He wouldn't contact the PO. Wanted me to do it. I told him I can't claim non-receipt, I'm not the recipient. A few days later, I followed up and he said it had arrived. It was put in the wrong postal locker.

Pnies20

@jmlanzaf said:

@Pnies20 said:

@jmlanzaf said:

@Pnies20 said:
If the buyer isn’t going to the post office to help find out what happened, that would raise a red flag for me.

Obviously, if he is scamming you he can’t go.

See my earlier post. Some buyers believe sole responsibility for shipping issues fall on the seller.

Some people think any number of things. People want the coins they paid for. If he’s uninterested it’s a red flag.

I can't tell you how many times I've had buyers refuse to do anything. It could be a red flag. It could also just be a lazy customer.

I recently had a customer in Israel. Tracking showed that it was being held in customs. He told me to do something about it. I said, I can't pay the duty or whatever they need to clear it to you. He contacted eBay to have them do something about it. He literally wouldn't even try to contact customs even though the tracking showed it was there.

There was the case above that I already posted.

I also had a customer who contacted me a couple months back with another delivered/not delivered package. Same thing. He wouldn't contact the PO. Wanted me to do it. I told him I can't claim non-receipt, I'm not the recipient. A few days later, I followed up and he said it had arrived. It was put in the wrong postal locker.

I would be interested to know what develops in this incident.

It would be worth it for me to look into as the seller, depending on the circumstances.

TwoSides2aCoin

My open mind thinks the buyer got cheated. My narrow mind thinks he may be a cheater.

jmlanzaf

@TwoSides2aCoin said:
My open mind thinks the buyer got cheated. My narrow mind thinks he may be a cheater.

No mind thinks it's a postal mix-up? Maybe your open heart?

gtstang

I literally just watched one of the p .o. delivery people put a priority signature required package in my mailbox.
I really don't think they care about getting a signature at all anymore.

jmlanzaf

@gtstang said:
I literally just watched one of the p .o. delivery people put a priority signature required package in my mailbox.
I really don't think they care about getting a signature at all anymore.

Digital signature on file?

gtstang

M Schultz must be the drivers name. I wonder if they have approval to sign for these?

Aspie_Rocco

The coins were all from my registry sets and I am waiting to see if I get a removal request.
In the event of a removal request, would I be able to reach out to pcgs and report the situation?
I was going to post pictures of the group of coins but I do not want false removal requests. 6 of 14 were CAC approved, all were In pcgs holders.

My post office said there is nothing they can do, the recipient has to go to their post office. I guess paying extra for a required signature is a waste of money. Feel a little let down with that revelation.

TwoSides2aCoin

@jmlanzaf said:

@TwoSides2aCoin said:
My open mind thinks the buyer got cheated. My narrow mind thinks he may be a cheater.

No mind thinks it's a postal mix-up? Maybe your open heart?

It could very well be in possession of another as the result of a mix-up. Yet, the correspondences seem (feel) sketchy. Some pieces of the puzzle don't fit , besides the missing piece we know of. Time may or may not tell.
That is the beauty of registering coins via registry sets here and ATS. As a collection or inventory, methinks.

davewesen

because of covid, the signature requirement was extremely relaxed

M4Madness

I timed my most recent $1K coin purchase so that it would arrive today (Saturday) while I was home and could sign for it. Tracking yesterday showed it arriving at the sorting facility 20 miles north of me and right on schedule for delivery this morning.

I checked tracking this morning and the thing is now at a tiny post office 234 miles north of me. Ugh!