Who ya got?!?!

1951WheatiesPremium

Two players, same position, no names.

Player A scored 24.3 points per game in his career on a .496 field goal percentage, an .886 free throw percentage, and a .376 percentage on three-point shots. He had an average of 10.0 rebounds per game for his career and 6.3 assists.

Player B scored 27.2 points per game in his career on a .505 field goal percentage, a .735 free throw percentage, and a .345 percentage on three-point shots. He had an average of 7.5 rebounds per game for his career and 7.3 assists.

Who ya got!?!?

perkdog

Player B

LandrysFedora

Player A due to the 15% difference in free throw percentage.

GroceryRackPack

Who ya got?!?!

Hey 51Wheaties, I'm gonna go with: Player A; average of 10.0 rebounds per game -- that's kind of my thinking like on with QB sacks or interceptions...

erikthredd

Clearly Player B isn't happy with Player A getting all of the love. 😉

Basebal21

A is a better shooter, rebounds make up for point differences, assists are dependent on teammates to make the shot.

That said and I am not a fan of B at all, there is something to be said about the longevity and playing about 500 more games already which will probably get to 600 or 700 more at this rate if not more. B is a shockingly low free throw percentage for someone that gets multiple chances a game for decades now

perkdog

I can't wait to see who these guys are lol

GroceryRackPack

I'm kind of thinking that player A is Larry Bird, but what do I know...I'm just a dumb footballer...my basketball trivia is kind of sucky...

perkdog

@GroceryRackPack said:
I'm kind of thinking that player A is Larry Bird, but what do I know...I'm just a dumb footballer...my basketball trivia is kind of sucky...

Mine is worse lol

erikthredd

This topic is interesting from the standpoint who was the better player at their peak?
Larry only played 13 seasons while Lebron is likely to finish somewhere around 22-25 seasons,currently at 20.

Larry had a 3yr stretch where he won 3 straight MVPs while going 2-1 in the Finals.
Lebron had a 5yr stretch where he won 4 MVPs while going 2-2 in the Finals.

Their best seasons may have come without either player winning a championship.
In 1984 Larry averaged 28/10/6/1/1 and lost to LA in the Finals.
In 2017 Lebron averaged 27/8/9/1/1 and lost to GS in the Finals. (last year in Cleveland)

thisistheshow

I have often said that Bird, if he'd stayed healthy, would be considered by many more the GOAT and in almost every top 5.

Beyond the injury (which was very severe) it's important to remember that he didn't grow up shooting 3s. The idea that he wouldn't have been an elite high volume 3 pt shooter in today's game is ludicrous.

@erikthredd he won a title in 81, 84, and 86.

His last several years he was a shell of himself, and really even after 86.

But I know injuries are part of it. LeBron has stayed healthy.

If anyone hasnt seen it...https://youtu.be/hcXv0JtzNQA

thisistheshow

@erikthredd said:
This topic is interesting from the standpoint who was the better player at their peak?
Larry only played 13 seasons while Lebron is likely to finish somewhere around 22-25 seasons,currently at 20.

Larry had a 3yr stretch where he won 3 straight MVPs while going 2-1 in the Finals.
Lebron had a 5yr stretch where he won 4 MVPs while going 2-2 in the Finals.

Their best seasons may have come without either player winning a championship.
In 1984 Larry averaged 28/10/6/1/1 and lost to LA in the Finals.
In 2017 Lebron averaged 27/8/9/1/1 and lost to GS in the Finals. (last year in Cleveland)

...
Better player at their peak? I can't wrap my head around LeBron being the answer. I am biased, but still, I can't.

erikthredd

@thisistheshow said:
I have often said that Bird, if he'd stayed healthy, would be considered by many more the GOAT and in almost every top 5.

Beyond the injury (which was very severe) it's important to remember that he didn't grow up shooting 3s. The idea that he wouldn't have been an elite high volume 3 pt shooter in today's game is ludicrous.

erikthredd he won a title in 81, 84, and 86.

His last several years he was a shell of himself, and really even after 86.

But I know injuries are part of it. LeBron has stayed healthy.

If anyone hasnt seen it...https://youtu.be/hcXv0JtzNQA

I know,I was just using their peak years as comparison. Larry won in year two but he didn't win his MVPs/FMVPs until that 3yr stretch of 1984-86.

It wasn't too hard to figure out Tim's players A&B when there haven't been that many players in history with those career rebounds/assists averages on top of the points.
As far as I know, Larry,Lebron,Luka and Oscar Robertson are the only players in history to average 24pppg/7rbg/6apg for their careers.

erikthredd

@thisistheshow said:

@erikthredd said:
This topic is interesting from the standpoint who was the better player at their peak?
Larry only played 13 seasons while Lebron is likely to finish somewhere around 22-25 seasons,currently at 20.

Larry had a 3yr stretch where he won 3 straight MVPs while going 2-1 in the Finals.
Lebron had a 5yr stretch where he won 4 MVPs while going 2-2 in the Finals.

Their best seasons may have come without either player winning a championship.
In 1984 Larry averaged 28/10/6/1/1 and lost to LA in the Finals.
In 2017 Lebron averaged 27/8/9/1/1 and lost to GS in the Finals. (last year in Cleveland)

...
Better player at their peak? I can't wrap my head around LeBron being the answer. I am biased, but still, I can't.

Its really just personal preference. I never said Lebron was the better player,i just posted what I thought was their peak years.

thisistheshow

@erikthredd said:

@thisistheshow said:
I have often said that Bird, if he'd stayed healthy, would be considered by many more the GOAT and in almost every top 5.

Beyond the injury (which was very severe) it's important to remember that he didn't grow up shooting 3s. The idea that he wouldn't have been an elite high volume 3 pt shooter in today's game is ludicrous.

erikthredd he won a title in 81, 84, and 86.

His last several years he was a shell of himself, and really even after 86.

But I know injuries are part of it. LeBron has stayed healthy.

If anyone hasnt seen it...https://youtu.be/hcXv0JtzNQA

I know,I was just using their peak years as comparison. Larry won in year two but he didn't win his MVPs/FMVPs until that 3yr stretch of 1984-86.

It wasn't too hard to figure out Tim's players A&B when there haven't been that many players in history with those career rebounds/assists averages on top of the points.
As far as I know, Larry,Lebron,Luka and Oscar Robertson are the only players in history to average 24pppg/7rbg/6apg for their careers.

..

Larry is famous for his 60 point game again at the Hawks. He scored 50 plus I think 4 times. Tatum has more 50 point games as a Celtics. But we know the 3 pointer changed things. Birds 60 point game he went 1-4 from 3, and honestly that's more 3 attempts than a younger Bird would take. I think he went from 2 to over 3 attempts later in his career. That game he was 15 of 16 from the line.

I wish Luka was a better FT shooter and defender. His defense actually improved pretty dramatically two seasons ago, but seemed (to my eyes) to regress last year. He's just not in shape. Bird was in notoriously great cardiovascular shape for much of his career. He ran, and ran, and ran. If course later he had to avoid a lot of things due to his back. Luka seems to have that Ben Roethlisberger thing going. Big Ben could be in week 15 and still look fat. That's hard to do as a starting QB, and requires dedication to food and beer. Though in his defense, I believe he might have stopped drinking towards the end of his career. Luka can get two weeks off and come back waaaay out of shape.

fergie23

Lebron due to his longevity. Growing up Bird and Jordan were my favorite players but Lebron has surpassed Bird at this point.

Something people never mention about Bird, he played with 3 HOFer starters (DJ, McHale, Parish) much of his career. Not a Big 3 but a Big 4. Not much different than Magic playing with a Big 3 for much of his career.

Robb

erikthredd

@fergie23 said:
Lebron due to his longevity. Growing up Bird and Jordan were my favorite players but Lebron has surpassed Bird at this point.

Something people never mention about Bird, he played with 3 HOFer starters (DJ, McHale, Parish) much of his career. Not a Big 3 but a Big 4. Not much different than Magic playing with a Big 3 for much of his career.

Robb

Lebron played with 5 current/future HOFers in Wade/Bosh/Ray Allen/Kyrie/AD.
Kevin Love is going to finish with over 15K points/10K rebounds to go with 1 ring,if he gets a 2nd that could be a 6th HOFer.
If you want to count playing with Shaq that would be 7.
How about Russell Westbrook? that would be 8.
There are probably 1-2 to more that could be found with a little bit of digging.

perkdog

@erikthredd said:

@fergie23 said:
Lebron due to his longevity. Growing up Bird and Jordan were my favorite players but Lebron has surpassed Bird at this point.

Something people never mention about Bird, he played with 3 HOFer starters (DJ, McHale, Parish) much of his career. Not a Big 3 but a Big 4. Not much different than Magic playing with a Big 3 for much of his career.

Robb

Lebron played with 5 current/future HOFers in Wade/Bosh/Ray Allen/Kyrie/AD.
Kevin Love is going to finish with over 15K points/10K rebounds to go with 1 ring,if he gets a 2nd that could be a 6th HOFer.
If you want to count playing with Shaq that would be 7.
How about Russell Westbrook? that would be 8.
There are probably 1-2 to more that could be found with a little bit of digging.

Again you need to do radio or TV

I'm not joking

erikthredd

@perkdog said:

@erikthredd said:

@fergie23 said:
Lebron due to his longevity. Growing up Bird and Jordan were my favorite players but Lebron has surpassed Bird at this point.

Something people never mention about Bird, he played with 3 HOFer starters (DJ, McHale, Parish) much of his career. Not a Big 3 but a Big 4. Not much different than Magic playing with a Big 3 for much of his career.

Robb

Lebron played with 5 current/future HOFers in Wade/Bosh/Ray Allen/Kyrie/AD.
Kevin Love is going to finish with over 15K points/10K rebounds to go with 1 ring,if he gets a 2nd that could be a 6th HOFer.
If you want to count playing with Shaq that would be 7.
How about Russell Westbrook? that would be 8.
There are probably 1-2 to more that could be found with a little bit of digging.

Again you need to do radio or TV

I'm not joking

Apparently this would be the perfect time to apply for a job at ESPN after they literally just fired over 20 of their best sports analysts.

perkdog

@erikthredd said:

@perkdog said:

@erikthredd said:

@fergie23 said:
Lebron due to his longevity. Growing up Bird and Jordan were my favorite players but Lebron has surpassed Bird at this point.

Something people never mention about Bird, he played with 3 HOFer starters (DJ, McHale, Parish) much of his career. Not a Big 3 but a Big 4. Not much different than Magic playing with a Big 3 for much of his career.

Robb

Lebron played with 5 current/future HOFers in Wade/Bosh/Ray Allen/Kyrie/AD.
Kevin Love is going to finish with over 15K points/10K rebounds to go with 1 ring,if he gets a 2nd that could be a 6th HOFer.
If you want to count playing with Shaq that would be 7.
How about Russell Westbrook? that would be 8.
There are probably 1-2 to more that could be found with a little bit of digging.

Again you need to do radio or TV

I'm not joking

Apparently this would be the perfect time to apply for a job at ESPN after they literally just fired over 20 of their best sports analysts.

I graduated high school with a guy who works there, my best friend is tight with him.and he brought him to the 2011 Super Bowl and sat with with Jon Gruden, he said he was a great guy

1951WheatiesPremium

Two all time greats and everyone figured it out…

…but…

…I can say that for the guys I’ve seen play the sport at the position, they’re 1 and 2 and ordering them is really, really tough. I have never seen a player with a better mental grasp of the game than Bird and I have never seen a player more physically imposing than LeBron James.

Both guys would kill it in any era of basketball. It reminds me, a lot, of the DiMaggio and Mays debate that can arise in the discussion for best centerfielders of all time.

GroceryRackPack

let me make sure that I have this one correct...
player A is this guy...

and player B is this guy...

thisistheshow

@erikthredd said:

@fergie23 said:
Lebron due to his longevity. Growing up Bird and Jordan were my favorite players but Lebron has surpassed Bird at this point.

Something people never mention about Bird, he played with 3 HOFer starters (DJ, McHale, Parish) much of his career. Not a Big 3 but a Big 4. Not much different than Magic playing with a Big 3 for much of his career.

Robb

Lebron played with 5 current/future HOFers in Wade/Bosh/Ray Allen/Kyrie/AD.
Kevin Love is going to finish with over 15K points/10K rebounds to go with 1 ring,if he gets a 2nd that could be a 6th HOFer.
If you want to count playing with Shaq that would be 7.
How about Russell Westbrook? that would be 8.
There are probably 1-2 to more that could be found with a little bit of digging.

...
I'm going to link the Celtics season before Bird arrived and his 1st year. Notice the wins improvement (32) and rosters.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1979.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1980.html

erikthredd

@thisistheshow said:

@erikthredd said:

@fergie23 said:
Lebron due to his longevity. Growing up Bird and Jordan were my favorite players but Lebron has surpassed Bird at this point.

Something people never mention about Bird, he played with 3 HOFer starters (DJ, McHale, Parish) much of his career. Not a Big 3 but a Big 4. Not much different than Magic playing with a Big 3 for much of his career.

Robb

Lebron played with 5 current/future HOFers in Wade/Bosh/Ray Allen/Kyrie/AD.
Kevin Love is going to finish with over 15K points/10K rebounds to go with 1 ring,if he gets a 2nd that could be a 6th HOFer.
If you want to count playing with Shaq that would be 7.
How about Russell Westbrook? that would be 8.
There are probably 1-2 to more that could be found with a little bit of digging.

...
I'm going to link the Celtics season before Bird arrived and his 1st year. Notice the wins improvement (32) and rosters.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1979.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/1980.html

I know all about how much the team's win total improved from that season before and then his rookie year lol. I'm an admitted Celtics honk be it the 70/80's teams or the 2023 one.

IIRC the 2008 Celtics set the record for most wins improvement from one season to the next,that even ended with a Chip. The Spurs also topped that 32 wins by Bird's Celtics team twice with David Robinson & Tim Duncan's rookie season teams.

erikthredd

@perkdog said:

@erikthredd said:

@perkdog said:

@erikthredd said:

@fergie23 said:
Lebron due to his longevity. Growing up Bird and Jordan were my favorite players but Lebron has surpassed Bird at this point.

Something people never mention about Bird, he played with 3 HOFer starters (DJ, McHale, Parish) much of his career. Not a Big 3 but a Big 4. Not much different than Magic playing with a Big 3 for much of his career.

Robb

Lebron played with 5 current/future HOFers in Wade/Bosh/Ray Allen/Kyrie/AD.
Kevin Love is going to finish with over 15K points/10K rebounds to go with 1 ring,if he gets a 2nd that could be a 6th HOFer.
If you want to count playing with Shaq that would be 7.
How about Russell Westbrook? that would be 8.
There are probably 1-2 to more that could be found with a little bit of digging.

Again you need to do radio or TV

I'm not joking

Apparently this would be the perfect time to apply for a job at ESPN after they literally just fired over 20 of their best sports analysts.

I graduated high school with a guy who works there, my best friend is tight with him.and he brought him to the 2011 Super Bowl and sat with with Jon Gruden, he said he was a great guy

Just hearing his insight into the game and stories from Gruden must have been an experience in itself. I wonder if he was still bitter about the tuck rule game lol. 😎

erikthredd

Larry (& Magic) were unreal with their passing ability at their size. Here are some of Larry's best passes...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baBdnA7cui0

The pass at 2:08 will always be my favorite but that one at 1:47 😲

fergie23

Lebron played with 5 current/future HOFers in Wade/Bosh/Ray Allen/Kyrie/AD.

Not all at the same time, which was my point. The super team that Lebron put together in Miami is no different than the Celtics team in the mid-80s. However, no one lauding Bird mentions that. Lebron gets criticized ad nauseum for going to Miami and building a super team (big 3, etc.) yet it is no different than the teams Bird, Magic, the entire 60s Celtics era, etc. played on.

As for HOFers during their career, Bird played with the following HOFers:
Archibald
DJ
Parish
McHale,
Walton,
Maravich,
Gilmore
Cowens

Doesn't seem any different from Lebron's list.

Robb

erikthredd

@fergie23 said:
Lebron played with 5 current/future HOFers in Wade/Bosh/Ray Allen/Kyrie/AD.

Not all at the same time, which was my point. The super team that Lebron put together in Miami is no different than the Celtics team in the mid-80s. However, no one lauding Bird mentions that. Lebron gets criticized ad nauseum for going to Miami and building a super team (big 3, etc.) yet it is no different than the teams Bird, Magic, the entire 60s Celtics era, etc. played on.

As for HOFers during their career, Bird played with the following HOFers:
Archibald
DJ
Parish
McHale,
Walton,
Maravich,
Gilmore
Cowens

Doesn't seem any different from Lebron's list.

Robb

LoL,Robb you're the guy that brought the teammates talk into the debate when no one here said anything about Lebron making a super team or not having enough help. All I did was point out that that wasn't the case at all.

I think alot of people tend to forget that Lebron has been playing for 20 years now. Those first 4-5 years where he didn't have elite level talent on his team,even though it was still pretty good overall, he was never going to be able to beat the more complete teams like the Spurs,Lakers & even the Pistons no matter how great of a player he was.

Since then he's had as much talent around him as any other great player during this era. Its just that, at times that talent was either injury prone like AD,straight up cuckoo like Kyrie or somehow Lebron and the Lakers couldn't figure out the best way to make that talent fit with Russell Westbrook.

I'm probably more tuned into the NBA than anyone else on this blog and I rarely see anyone mention the Lebron super teams stuff any more. This season will be his 10th year since leaving Miami and all of that stuff is so far in the past that the majority of time when someone even mentions it,its likely more to do with trolling a certain commenter than it has anything to do with Lebron. But even then its just an opinion,nothing more.

thisistheshow

@erikthredd said:

@fergie23 said:
Lebron played with 5 current/future HOFers in Wade/Bosh/Ray Allen/Kyrie/AD.

Not all at the same time, which was my point. The super team that Lebron put together in Miami is no different than the Celtics team in the mid-80s. However, no one lauding Bird mentions that. Lebron gets criticized ad nauseum for going to Miami and building a super team (big 3, etc.) yet it is no different than the teams Bird, Magic, the entire 60s Celtics era, etc. played on.

As for HOFers during their career, Bird played with the following HOFers:
Archibald
DJ
Parish
McHale,
Walton,
Maravich,
Gilmore
Cowens

Doesn't seem any different from Lebron's list.

Robb

LoL,Robb you're the guy that brought the teammates talk into the debate when no one here said anything about Lebron making a super team or not having enough help. All I did was point out that that wasn't the case at all.

I think alot of people tend to forget that Lebron has been playing for 20 years now. Those first 4-5 years where he didn't have elite level talent on his team,even though it was still pretty good overall, he was never going to be able to beat the more complete teams like the Spurs,Lakers & even the Pistons no matter how great of a player he was.

Since then he's had as much talent around him as any other great player during this era. Its just that, at times that talent was either injury prone like AD,straight up cuckoo like Kyrie or somehow Lebron and the Lakers couldn't figure out the best way to make that talent fit with Russell Westbrook.

I'm probably more tuned into the NBA than anyone else on this blog and I rarely see anyone mention the Lebron super teams stuff any more. This season will be his 10th year since leaving Miami and all of that stuff is so far in the past that the majority of time when someone even mentions it,its likely more to do with trolling a certain commenter than it has anything to do with Lebron. But even then its just an opinion,nothing more.

..
I remember. Not 2. Not 3. Not 4. Not 5. Not 6. Not 7.

Very different situation than Bird with Celtics.

In my opinion, Lebron's "decision" had a terrible impact on the league and permanently tarnished his reputation. There is no coming back from that.

And that first year, they lost to the Mavericks, and it was glorious. I also will not forget him and Wade mocking Dirk. LeBron is a poor ambassador, in my opinion , for the sport.

ETA..I realize LeBron did not start the idea of going somewhere to win a title.

erikthredd

@thisistheshow said:

@erikthredd said:

@fergie23 said:
Lebron played with 5 current/future HOFers in Wade/Bosh/Ray Allen/Kyrie/AD.

Not all at the same time, which was my point. The super team that Lebron put together in Miami is no different than the Celtics team in the mid-80s. However, no one lauding Bird mentions that. Lebron gets criticized ad nauseum for going to Miami and building a super team (big 3, etc.) yet it is no different than the teams Bird, Magic, the entire 60s Celtics era, etc. played on.

As for HOFers during their career, Bird played with the following HOFers:
Archibald
DJ
Parish
McHale,
Walton,
Maravich,
Gilmore
Cowens

Doesn't seem any different from Lebron's list.

Robb

LoL,Robb you're the guy that brought the teammates talk into the debate when no one here said anything about Lebron making a super team or not having enough help. All I did was point out that that wasn't the case at all.

I think alot of people tend to forget that Lebron has been playing for 20 years now. Those first 4-5 years where he didn't have elite level talent on his team,even though it was still pretty good overall, he was never going to be able to beat the more complete teams like the Spurs,Lakers & even the Pistons no matter how great of a player he was.

Since then he's had as much talent around him as any other great player during this era. Its just that, at times that talent was either injury prone like AD,straight up cuckoo like Kyrie or somehow Lebron and the Lakers couldn't figure out the best way to make that talent fit with Russell Westbrook.

I'm probably more tuned into the NBA than anyone else on this blog and I rarely see anyone mention the Lebron super teams stuff any more. This season will be his 10th year since leaving Miami and all of that stuff is so far in the past that the majority of time when someone even mentions it,its likely more to do with trolling a certain commenter than it has anything to do with Lebron. But even then its just an opinion,nothing more.

..
I remember. Not 2. Not 3. Not 4. Not 5. Not 6. Not 7.

Very different situation than Bird with Celtics.

In my opinion, Lebron's "decision" had a terrible impact on the league and permanently tarnished his reputation. There is no coming back from that.

And that first year, they lost to the Mavericks, and it was glorious. I also will not forget him and Wade mocking Dirk. LeBron is a poor ambassador, in my opinion , for the sport.

ETA..I realize LeBron did not start the idea of going somewhere to win a title.

@thisistheshow said:

@erikthredd said:

@fergie23 said:
Lebron played with 5 current/future HOFers in Wade/Bosh/Ray Allen/Kyrie/AD.

Not all at the same time, which was my point. The super team that Lebron put together in Miami is no different than the Celtics team in the mid-80s. However, no one lauding Bird mentions that. Lebron gets criticized ad nauseum for going to Miami and building a super team (big 3, etc.) yet it is no different than the teams Bird, Magic, the entire 60s Celtics era, etc. played on.

As for HOFers during their career, Bird played with the following HOFers:
Archibald
DJ
Parish
McHale,
Walton,
Maravich,
Gilmore
Cowens

Doesn't seem any different from Lebron's list.

Robb

LoL,Robb you're the guy that brought the teammates talk into the debate when no one here said anything about Lebron making a super team or not having enough help. All I did was point out that that wasn't the case at all.

I think alot of people tend to forget that Lebron has been playing for 20 years now. Those first 4-5 years where he didn't have elite level talent on his team,even though it was still pretty good overall, he was never going to be able to beat the more complete teams like the Spurs,Lakers & even the Pistons no matter how great of a player he was.

Since then he's had as much talent around him as any other great player during this era. Its just that, at times that talent was either injury prone like AD,straight up cuckoo like Kyrie or somehow Lebron and the Lakers couldn't figure out the best way to make that talent fit with Russell Westbrook.

I'm probably more tuned into the NBA than anyone else on this blog and I rarely see anyone mention the Lebron super teams stuff any more. This season will be his 10th year since leaving Miami and all of that stuff is so far in the past that the majority of time when someone even mentions it,its likely more to do with trolling a certain commenter than it has anything to do with Lebron. But even then its just an opinion,nothing more.

..
I remember. Not 2. Not 3. Not 4. Not 5. Not 6. Not 7.

I don't see what the issue is here, Lebron clearly has the rest of his career to lose that 7th Finals. 😎👍