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SUPER RARE 1786 NEW JERSEY COPPER 16-S VARIETY FOUND! ONLY THE 2ND ONE KNOWN! (Discussion thread)

joebb21joebb21 Posts: 4,746 ✭✭✭✭✭

While labeled by NGC to be F details and tooled, it has more VF details and multiple scratches as appose to actually tooled.
Only the 2nd example ever to be found with the other carefully and well kept as part of the famous Anton collection.
Much smarter people can and will write about the characteristics of this coin in NJ colonial papers- but for those that do collect these- Here is an almost unique R9

https://ebay.com/itm/185961883475











may the fonz be with you...always...

Comments

  • TomBTomB Posts: 21,339 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Do you think the rarity of the die marriage was known before the submission?

    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • joebb21joebb21 Posts: 4,746 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @TomB said:
    Do you think the rarity of the die marriage was known before the submission?

    Absolutely was not. The seller thought it was a $250-$500 coin. Even once it was listed.

    may the fonz be with you...always...
  • BuffaloIronTailBuffaloIronTail Posts: 7,481 ✭✭✭✭✭

    As Mr. Spock would say - FASCINATING.

    Pete

    "I tell them there's no problems.....only solutions" - John Lennon
  • jerseybenjerseyben Posts: 116 ✭✭✭

    Have you had someone like Mike Demling verify this?

  • keyman64keyman64 Posts: 15,507 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @joebb21 said:

    @TomB said:
    Do you think the rarity of the die marriage was known before the submission?

    Absolutely was not. The seller thought it was a $250-$500 coin. Even once it was listed.

    Listed? So, did it sell recently? How much?

    "If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
    Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners. :smile:
  • joebb21joebb21 Posts: 4,746 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 30, 2023 5:58AM

    @keyman64 said:

    @joebb21 said:

    @TomB said:
    Do you think the rarity of the die marriage was known before the submission?

    Absolutely was not. The seller thought it was a $250-$500 coin. Even once it was listed.

    Listed? So, did it sell recently? How much?

    Currently being auctioned.

    may the fonz be with you...always...
  • joebb21joebb21 Posts: 4,746 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jerseyben said:
    Have you had someone like Mike Demling verify this?

    Yes

    may the fonz be with you...always...
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,245 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thank you for the excellent presentation.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wow... What a find.... Just a truly historical coin and even as 'details', a coin I would be proud to own. Thanks for the great pictures. Cheers, RickO

  • braddickbraddick Posts: 24,116 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wonderful!
    I do think the marks above the shield is tooling.
    I also agree it has more VF characteristics than not.
    Neat find and congratulations to the current and future owners.

    peacockcoins

  • stealerstealer Posts: 3,997 ✭✭✭✭

    @joebb21 said:

    @keyman64 said:

    @joebb21 said:

    @TomB said:
    Do you think the rarity of the die marriage was known before the submission?

    Absolutely was not. The seller thought it was a $250-$500 coin. Even once it was listed.

    Listed? So, did it sell recently? How much?

    Currently being auctioned.

    Great discovery, but if you are going to link the eBay auction why is this on the general discussion and not on BST?

    You own that eBay account, consignment or not.

  • airplanenutairplanenut Posts: 22,170 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This post should be on the BST. You're selling it and the post is basically your listing and a link to it. No reason this discussion can't happen next week or at the very least without a reference to the sale.

    JK Coin Photography - eBay Consignments | High Quality Photos | LOW Prices | 20% of Consignment Proceeds Go to Pancreatic Cancer Research
  • jerseybenjerseyben Posts: 116 ✭✭✭

    BTW... You are basing the whole value of this NJ on the R9 variety... Yet you don't even have it listed in the ebay title. It is posted almost as an afterthought in the description. You actually wrote "curved beam" in the description. The good news is that the big boys already took notice. Just my 2 cents but this is not how you sell a coin of this caliber.

  • joebb21joebb21 Posts: 4,746 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 30, 2023 11:50AM

    @jerseyben said:
    BTW... You are basing the whole value of this NJ on the R9 variety... Yet you don't even have it listed in the ebay title. It is posted almost as an afterthought in the description. You actually wrote "curved beam" in the description. The good news is that the big boys already took notice. Just my 2 cents but this is not how you sell a coin of this caliber.

    Correct. I did not know all the information I posted when I listed the coin for sale. I also cannot edit the title or description. At this point- those who know about NJ coppers know what they are looking at and I would just be embarrassing myself if I tried to add more information than what is written in Roger Siboni's book

    may the fonz be with you...always...
  • joebb21joebb21 Posts: 4,746 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 30, 2023 11:45AM

    @airplanenut said:
    This post should be on the BST. You're selling it and the post is basically your listing and a link to it. No reason this discussion can't happen next week or at the very least without a reference to the sale.

    The thread title states this is about discussing or making aware of this variety for those who are interested. While it can be listed on the BST-it was posted more for awareness and curiosity than selling.

    The variety is so unique that those "in the know" of NJ coppers have been discussing this for days.
    I love to watch a rare coin/variety sell and see where it ends up and am sure others do as well. Here they get the chance to enjoy that fun as well.

    Many people never look at the BST and would not have known if I didnt post in 2 groups. I didnt want to have 2 threads to discuss.

    Sure- I could have just gave the info and someone else posted a link. I just saved the trouble

    may the fonz be with you...always...
  • joebb21joebb21 Posts: 4,746 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 30, 2023 11:51AM

    @braddick said:
    Wonderful!
    I do think the marks above the shield is tooling.
    I also agree it has more VF characteristics than not.
    Neat find and congratulations to the current and future owners.

    How do you define tooling? There is no engraving or re-defining of details. While there are definitely lots of scratches, my understanding is that tooling is intentional.

    may the fonz be with you...always...
  • braddickbraddick Posts: 24,116 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @joebb21 said:

    @braddick said:
    Wonderful!
    I do think the marks above the shield is tooling.
    I also agree it has more VF characteristics than not.
    Neat find and congratulations to the current and future owners.

    How do you define tooling? There is no engraving or re-defining of details. While there are definitely lots of scratches, my understanding is that tooling is intentional.

    Tooling many times is used to remove imperfections. Tooling of course is intentional.
    In the case of copper- at least for me- tooling is more desirable (so to speak) than scratches.
    The tooling on your colonial is not offensive and the overall appearance of it is attractive and desirable.

    peacockcoins

  • joebb21joebb21 Posts: 4,746 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @braddick
    Using your definition of tooling, what makes you think the "damage" that was done was to remove imperfections
    The sheer amount of them and the directions they go make me think it was not done to remove anything- just got scraped against some surfaces

    may the fonz be with you...always...
  • MidLifeCrisisMidLifeCrisis Posts: 10,547 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I'm glad you posted this thread here. Thank you for making me and others aware.

  • Sunshine Rare CoinsSunshine Rare Coins Posts: 2,320 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A great find!

  • braddickbraddick Posts: 24,116 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @joebb21 said:
    @braddick
    Using your definition of tooling, what makes you think the "damage" that was done was to remove imperfections
    The sheer amount of them and the directions they go make me think it was not done to remove anything- just got scraped against some surfaces

    It could be too the shield was improved a bit.
    "tooling" and "engraving" are closely intertwined.
    Either way it is a wonderful discovery.

    peacockcoins

  • RLSnapperRLSnapper Posts: 577 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wow....I had no idea these coins were so highly sought after. Bidding is at 29K with 4 days left to go!! Who says Ebay can't bring the big bucks! I wonder if GC or HA would have promoted this coin to bring such spirited bidding? Congratulations...BTW you will have to pay hefty taxes on this sale because Ebay will 1099 you. I don't know if GC or HA 1099 you.

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 8,571 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Curious what the story was behind this coin? One of those family was cleaning out their belongings of someone who passed away?

  • ColonialcoinColonialcoin Posts: 661 ✭✭✭✭

    @joebb21 said:
    While labeled by NGC to be F details and tooled, it has more VF details and multiple scratches as appose to actually tooled.
    Only the 2nd example ever to be found with the other carefully and well kept as part of the famous Anton collection.
    Much smarter people can and will write about the characteristics of this coin in NJ colonial papers- but for those that do collect these- Here is an almost unique R9

    https://ebay.com/itm/185961883475











    While it certainly is not a rule, It is not proper protocol to advertise a coin that is in a live auction until the sale is completed, especially when it is yours.

  • Pnies20Pnies20 Posts: 2,331 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wow! What a find! Congrats.

    BHNC #248 … 130 and counting.

  • DCWDCW Posts: 7,392 ✭✭✭✭✭

    $44,100 with 2 days left!

    Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
    "Coin collecting for outcasts..."

  • logger7logger7 Posts: 8,571 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If this were not certified, it would not inspire the kind of confidence it is showing. Some years ago an antique seller listed a Vermont copper I believe and it went well into the thousands and potential buyers contacted them to pull it off for a quick sale.

  • joebb21joebb21 Posts: 4,746 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @logger7 said:
    If this were not certified, it would not inspire the kind of confidence it is showing. Some years ago an antique seller listed a Vermont copper I believe and it went well into the thousands and potential buyers contacted them to pull it off for a quick sale.

    It sold for something like $105,000 give or take on ebay

    may the fonz be with you...always...
  • logger7logger7 Posts: 8,571 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Over $50K now, with the strong bidding it could fetch another $10-$20K. Is there any way to do pricing analysis on this?

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