Morgan Grading Experts: Does this 1887 Morgan have a shot at MS65?
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Updated for clarity: The coin is currently in a PCGS MS64 holder.
I want to hear from the more experienced/proficient Morgan experts... This is a solid MS64 (IMO) which I believe would CAC. The question is, with PCGS's current standards, does this coin have a shot at 65 on a regrade/reconsideration submission? I believe the reverse is MS65 all day. On the obverse, I believe the fields are clean enough for 65, but the question is whether the hits on the cheek are too severe for 65. My gut tells me it's just a touch too much for 65 as 65's generally have fairly clean faces but can have some damage. If anyone has doubts about CAC eligibility please say so as well but I think at 64 JA would approve. I could see PCGS giving it a + but I don't know if the price boost is worth it (approx $50 in PCGS guide).
Edited to add: Be aware that my pictures I feel accentuate all of the defects that are not so glaring in-hand. The 3rd obverse photo most accurately shows how it looks in-hand.
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I don't think so, but I'm not a Morgan expert either. If we were doing a GTG, I would have said 63 because of the obv. I agree the rev is 65 though, which may be why it's a 64 overall.
Coin looks average 64 nothing special. The reverse grade almost never adds to the overall grade, but can actually lower it.
I would say not a good enough chance to warrant the increase in value relative to the cost. It’s worth about $90 more and you’ll spend half that to grade it. It looks like a solid 64 to me but would be a very weak 65.
MS64 Not much upside in cracking out and resubmitting.
Sorry to say I'm a No. The hits are too much. There's also too much going on in the fields both reverse and obverse.
In fact I've sent a couple of strong 64s in for a plus (+) and was denied. They didn't have those kind of hits to the face.
Here is my MS-65 for a comparison:
Here's one of the 64s for a plus that was denied.
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My current Registry sets:
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Not being defensive, just fostering discussion.
Actually the coin more than doubles in guide price value for a 65.
I know what you're saying and you're reinforcing what I thought and your points are well taken. Just for fun, here's a few 65's that have considerable face and field damage which is what makes me think it might be a possibility. For sure though, it would be a "C" 65.
Be aware that my pictures I feel accentuate all of the defects that are not so glaring in-hand. The 3rd obverse photo is how it looks in-hand.
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/36880853
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/43839123
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/42196075
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Personally, I don't see a 65 in that coin.
Coin Photographer.
I don't think it passes muster as a 65, but I have no idea what PCGS would/will think.
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No, but who knows what will happen if you submit.
What's going on with that second coin? E.g where the chin and neck join, near the eagle's head, above the lip/below the nose, in between the wheat by the RI, the top right of the wreath and at the lower fold of the cap the frosting appears to oddly spill into the fields, almost like on a puttied proof coin? Morgans are definitely not my series but I don't recall seeing a DMPL one like that (including the other two photos here, although the last one does have a bit of the same effect between the eagle's neck and wing).
Absolutely zero chance of the coin posted getting a 65, or even a 4+ for that matter. It appears to be an average 64.
The three TV's you posted are 65DMPL's. Their reflectivity on a glamour shot will drastically enhance minor flaws in a picture. They appear to me to be properly graded.
The OP’s Morgan is not a 65 but it’s still a nice looking coin.
Grades for Morgan dollars don’t seem to follow a 50-50 obverse-reverse split; it’s more like 65-35 or more favoring the obverse. That huge cheek needs to be very clean for gem and higher grades. This coin doesn’t have the clean cheek imho.
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I always thought the reverse of a coin doesn’t improve the grade but could lower it. My understanding is that the coin is graded on the obverse and can lose points for detracting reverse marks. Correct me if I am wrong
Put me down in the “no more than 64” camp but I’ve been wrong before, I just don’t see it.
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@Walkerlover I hear what you’re saying but if that were always true, then coins would never be holdered with the reverse label-side up. Unless this is requested by the submitter? The reverse must count for something…
The rim of a coin can negatively influence a grade when dinged, maybe that’s what you’re thinking of?
"Bongo hurtles along the rain soaked highway of life on underinflated bald retread tires."
~Wayne
No Sir, i do not believe the coin would upgrade…
Would you be willing to buy the coin as a 65, for 65 money?
I think if the marks were only in the field or only on the cheek that it would have a better chance, but as is I see it accurately graded at 64.
Here is an 85-CC that I have that I think barely squeaked into 65. Plenty of cheek marks but clean fields and really good luster.
Collector, occasional seller
Nice appeal overall but with the cheek that one doesn’t even make the album.
Of course can only judge based on the photos provided, but I think there's just a little too much going on with the obverse to make it at 65. It's properly graded as a 64 IMHO.
Chatter in the fields, especially the noticeable stuff in front of the nose, plus some marks on both the cheek and neck. Common date with a lot of superb gem examples out there to compare to.
It’s just areas of break in the mirrored surfaces. Extremely common. Keep in mind these were originally minted as mint state coins, not attempting to have mirrored surfaces, so every little crevice on the dies didn’t get cleaned/wiped routinely like a modern proof coin.
As far as the original coin in the post, it’s a 64 and shouldn’t upgrade. Way too much chatter in the fields on both sides. The reverse is not doing any favors to the coin, because you basically need to start with a flawless reverse if you want any shot at this kind of upgrade. And the area under Liberty’s eye (looks like she got shot by a bb) is too severe of a hit to forgive.
Your understanding is correct in the vast majority of cases.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If a coin is holdered reverse side, up, it’s because the submitter requested it or the grading company goofed.
Regarding your previous comment (quoted below’) - there is no 50-50 obverse-reverse split. The obverse is weighted much more heavily than the reverse. Morgan dollars are no exception.
“Grades for Morgan dollars don’t seem to follow a 50-50 obverse-reverse split
; it’s more like 65-35 or more favoring the obverse.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Sometimes marks that hold coins back can be compensated by significant positives, but not in that case.
Not a 65.
A 64
Not a 65
That's another way of saying, the final grade is the lower of the obverse or the reverse.
You appear to contradict what you said to @walkerlover ("Your understanding is correct in the vast majority of cases."). Are you saying that a 64 obv with a 67 reverse nets out to a 65? Per @walkerlover's statement, it would just be a 64.
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I think if the reverse was figured into the grading equation most coins would unfairly get a higher grade, as many coins have a reverse of 1-2 points higher than the obverse. I don’t think a coin can get a higher grade than the obverse unless the reverse has some spectacular toning.
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No, I’m not saying that and I’m sorry for not having been clear.
I’ll rephrase to: In the very large majority of cases, the obverse is weighted much more heavily than the reverse. And, while on some occasions, the condition of the reverse can tilt a coin to a lower grade, very seldom does it tilt a coin to a higher grade.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Another not a Morgan expert but in general I don't see a coin with the number of marks in focal points getting a 65.
Thanks guys. I won't go for a 65 but I'll try for a CAC sticker.
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No - it’s not even a high end 64 imo - numerous marks on cheek. Rev not much better. 65? No way!
Put it on the bay at bid plus 10 pct.
no its got too many ticks for a 65
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If I submitted that coin it would be graded as a solid 63! All bases i my submissions.
@ProofCollection... Just to add, I do not think that coin would upgrade. To add to the other part of the OP question, I am not confident it will get a green bean. I do feel it may be close, so let us know what transpires. Good luck, Cheers, RickO
I’d call it a low end 64