@JoeLewis said:
The whole thing about the guarantee against upgrades doesn’t make sense to me. For most coins there are multiple previous owners. Should they all get compensated?
Good point. If multiple people need to be compensated, there could be double counting and more.
Also, the financial benefit is being captured by the latest submitter, so it’s the latest submitter that has funds to compensate previous owners. The other option is for the TPG to charge a percentage value for all upgrades to distribute to previous submitters.
Overall, it sounds like a complex scenario.
The PCGS guarantee applies only to submitters and not owners. Submitters pay PCGS for their opinion and owners don't. I don't think that owners are owed anything. Be sure you can prove the identity of the coin you send in in case you see it at a higher grade later. Unfortunately the grade guarantee doesn't apply if the coin upgrades, but if it did then the onus to compensate would be on PCGS.
@BAJJERFAN said: The PCGS guarantee applies only to submitters and not owners. Submitters pay PCGS for their opinion and owners don't. I don't think that owners are owed anything. Be sure you can prove the identity of the coin you send in in case you see it at a higher grade later. Unfortunately the grade guarantee doesn't apply if the coin upgrades, but if it did then the onus to compensate would be on PCGS.
@BAJJERFAN said: The PCGS guarantee applies only to submitters and not owners. Submitters pay PCGS for their opinion and owners don't. I don't think that owners are owed anything. Be sure you can prove the identity of the coin you send in in case you see it at a higher grade later. Unfortunately the grade guarantee doesn't apply if the coin upgrades, but if it did then the onus to compensate would be on PCGS.
@BAJJERFAN said: The PCGS guarantee applies only to submitters and not owners. Submitters pay PCGS for their opinion and owners don't. I don't think that owners are owed anything. Be sure you can prove the identity of the coin you send in in case you see it at a higher grade later. Unfortunately the grade guarantee doesn't apply if the coin upgrades, but if it did then the onus to compensate would be on PCGS.
In other words, the guarantee applies to owners, and not submitters, instead of the other way around.
.
Hmmm... I had a different reading of this. Might need an interpreter of forms. Not sure I am reading it correctly but this is what I got out of it.
I did not see it as an owner or submitter thing but as an Original submitter (or owner). That is, PCGS is saying if someone submits a coin (owner or submitter) and it is slabbed / graded by PCGS, then that same owner / submitter can not then resubmit the coin under the guarantee and be compensated via the guarantee. PCGS is further stating that anyone associated with the original owner / submitter (agents, family, employee's...) is also included in this.
The initial part of the guarantee starts off with:
'In the event the purchaser of a PCGS graded coin believes....'
I am thinking the PCGS guarantee is there to compensate purchasers of PCGS coins in the case of a guarantee type of thing. But this exemption is trying to say that if someone submits a coin that is not a PCGS coin and PCGS grades it, then that same someone (or anyone associated with them) can not claim the guarantee since they did not purchase a PCGS coin but only had it initially graded. That is there is not a loss due to purchasing a PCGS coin.
Not sure if I fully agree with my interpretation in some cases but I think that is what I read out of it. Again not sure I am reading it correctly.
Screen shot of more of the PCGS guarantee and text with the 'purchaser' near the top and the 'Original' statement near the bottom of the screen shot.
@BAJJERFAN said: The PCGS guarantee applies only to submitters and not owners. Submitters pay PCGS for their opinion and owners don't. I don't think that owners are owed anything. Be sure you can prove the identity of the coin you send in in case you see it at a higher grade later. Unfortunately the grade guarantee doesn't apply if the coin upgrades, but if it did then the onus to compensate would be on PCGS.
It appears that the PCGS grading guarantee write-up says nothing at all about a coin that upgrades upon resubmission. The only mention of grades is where a coin has been over-graded by PCGS and then someone submits it for subsequent down-grade or if a grade on a slab is an obvious clerical error (they use an MS65 label for an MS60 coin as an example).
Hmmm... I had a different reading of this. Might need an interpreter of forms. Not sure I am reading it correctly but this is what I got out of it.
I did not see it as an owner or submitter thing but as an Original submitter (or owner). That is, PCGS is saying if someone submits a coin (owner or submitter) and it is slabbed / graded by PCGS, then that same owner / submitter can not then resubmit the coin under the guarantee and be compensated via the guarantee. PCGS is further stating that anyone associated with the original owner / submitter (agents, family, employee's...) is also included in this.
The initial part of the guarantee starts off with:
'In the event the purchaser of a PCGS graded coin believes....'
I am thinking the PCGS guarantee is there to compensate purchasers of PCGS coins in the case of a guarantee type of thing. But this exemption is trying to say that if someone submits a coin that is not a PCGS coin and PCGS grades it, then that same someone (or anyone associated with them) can not claim the guarantee since they did not purchase a PCGS coin but only had it initially graded. That is there is not a loss due to purchasing a PCGS coin.
Not sure if I fully agree with my interpretation in some cases but I think that is what I read out of it. Again not sure I am reading it correctly.
Screen shot of more of the PCGS guarantee and text with the 'purchaser' near the top and the 'Original' statement near the bottom of the screen shot.
My take.
Original Submitter. Per section 2 of the 'PCGS Grading Terms & Conditions', they agree to be bound by the 'Customer Agreement'. The remedy for suspected improper grading is covered in section 2.c.
Subsequent Owners of the Holder. Covered by the 'PCGS Guarantee'.
Just want to state my opinion on the topic. As a collector, I’d rather have a slabbed coin that looks like it might be undergraded than one that looks like it’s maxed out grade wise and I’m willing to pay extra (over the going rate for the grade on the slab) for the ones that look like they might be undergraded. I don’t resubmit them or get them stickered, I just enjoy having them knowing they have possible upward potential. But if I was selling I wouldn’t be thinking that way.
@JoeLewis said:
The whole thing about the guarantee against upgrades doesn’t make sense to me. For most coins there are multiple previous owners. Should they all get compensated?
Good point. If multiple people need to be compensated, there could be double counting and more.
Also, the financial benefit is being captured by the latest submitter, so it’s the latest submitter that has funds to compensate previous owners. The other option is for the TPG to charge a percentage value for all upgrades to distribute to previous submitters.
Overall, it sounds like a complex scenario.
The PCGS guarantee applies only to submitters and not owners. Submitters pay PCGS for their opinion and owners don't. I don't think that owners are owed anything. Be sure you can prove the identity of the coin you send in in case you see it at a higher grade later. Unfortunately the grade guarantee doesn't apply if the coin upgrades, but if it did then the onus to compensate would be on PCGS.
I agree submitters are the ones that have a relationship with TPG and can be considered in such a discussion.
The onus for compensation may be on the TPG since they have a relationship with the submitters, but given that the increase in value is currently captured by the latest submitter, I think the only way to make compensating previous submitters financially viable is for those funds to be taken from the latest submitter by the TPG. A question is whether the last submitter would tolerate this.
Personally, I don't think it is that viable to compensate previous submitters and the conversation shows how complex it can be.
Hmmm... I had a different reading of this. Might need an interpreter of forms. Not sure I am reading it correctly but this is what I got out of it.
I did not see it as an owner or submitter thing but as an Original submitter (or owner). That is, PCGS is saying if someone submits a coin (owner or submitter) and it is slabbed / graded by PCGS, then that same owner / submitter can not then resubmit the coin under the guarantee and be compensated via the guarantee. PCGS is further stating that anyone associated with the original owner / submitter (agents, family, employee's...) is also included in this.
The initial part of the guarantee starts off with:
'In the event the purchaser of a PCGS graded coin believes....'
I am thinking the PCGS guarantee is there to compensate purchasers of PCGS coins in the case of a guarantee type of thing. But this exemption is trying to say that if someone submits a coin that is not a PCGS coin and PCGS grades it, then that same someone (or anyone associated with them) can not claim the guarantee since they did not purchase a PCGS coin but only had it initially graded. That is there is not a loss due to purchasing a PCGS coin.
Not sure if I fully agree with my interpretation in some cases but I think that is what I read out of it. Again not sure I am reading it correctly.
Screen shot of more of the PCGS guarantee and text with the 'purchaser' near the top and the 'Original' statement near the bottom of the screen shot.
My take.
Original Submitter. Per section 2 of the 'PCGS Grading Terms & Conditions', they agree to be bound by the 'Customer Agreement'. The remedy for suspected improper grading is covered in section 2.c.
Subsequent Owners of the Holder. Covered by the 'PCGS Guarantee'.
I agree and that is why I am reading the previous guarantee limitation to be addressing the 'Original' submitter (owner or any associates of) and that the guarantee does not apply to them (the 'Original').
@BAJJERFAN said: The PCGS guarantee applies only to submitters and not owners. Submitters pay PCGS for their opinion and owners don't. I don't think that owners are owed anything. Be sure you can prove the identity of the coin you send in in case you see it at a higher grade later. Unfortunately the grade guarantee doesn't apply if the coin upgrades, but if it did then the onus to compensate would be on PCGS.
In other words, the guarantee applies to owners, and not submitters, instead of the other way around.
.
Hmmm... I had a different reading of this. Might need an interpreter of forms. Not sure I am reading it correctly but this is what I got out of it.
I did not see it as an owner or submitter thing but as an Original submitter (or owner). That is, PCGS is saying if someone submits a coin (owner or submitter) and it is slabbed / graded by PCGS, then that same owner / submitter can not then resubmit the coin under the guarantee and be compensated via the guarantee. PCGS is further stating that anyone associated with the original owner / submitter (agents, family, employee's...) is also included in this.
The initial part of the guarantee starts off with:
'In the event the purchaser of a PCGS graded coin believes....'
I am thinking the PCGS guarantee is there to compensate purchasers of PCGS coins in the case of a guarantee type of thing. But this exemption is trying to say that if someone submits a coin that is not a PCGS coin and PCGS grades it, then that same someone (or anyone associated with them) can not claim the guarantee since they did not purchase a PCGS coin but only had it initially graded. That is there is not a loss due to purchasing a PCGS coin.
Not sure if I fully agree with my interpretation in some cases but I think that is what I read out of it. Again not sure I am reading it correctly.
Screen shot of more of the PCGS guarantee and text with the 'purchaser' near the top and the 'Original' statement near the bottom of the screen shot.
I don’t see where we disagree. In case you interpreted my previous post (below) otherwise, “submitters” did not include “resubmitters”.
In other words, the guarantee applies to owners, and not submitters, instead of the other way around.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@JoeLewis said:
The whole thing about the guarantee against upgrades doesn’t make sense to me. For most coins there are multiple previous owners. Should they all get compensated?
Good point. If multiple people need to be compensated, there could be double counting and more.
Also, the financial benefit is being captured by the latest submitter, so it’s the latest submitter that has funds to compensate previous owners. The other option is for the TPG to charge a percentage value for all upgrades to distribute to previous submitters.
Overall, it sounds like a complex scenario.
The PCGS guarantee applies only to submitters and not owners. Submitters pay PCGS for their opinion and owners don't. I don't think that owners are owed anything. Be sure you can prove the identity of the coin you send in in case you see it at a higher grade later. Unfortunately the grade guarantee doesn't apply if the coin upgrades, but if it did then the onus to compensate would be on PCGS.
I agree submitters are the ones that have a relationship with TPG and can be considered in such a discussion.
The onus for compensation may be on the TPG since they have a relationship with the submitters, but given that the increase in value is currently captured by the latest submitter, I think the only way to make compensating previous submitters financially viable is for those funds to be taken from the latest submitter by the TPG. A question is whether the last submitter would tolerate this.
Personally, I don't think it is that viable to compensate previous submitters and the conversation shows how complex it can be.
The TPG doesn't pay/compensate for an increase in value, but they charge you a percentage of the gift/increase depending I think on the type of resubmission . However the TPG compensates for a decrease in value. How are they or anyone else to know the ownership history of a coin from the time it was graded until it was eventually downgraded? If the loss of value was $100 how should a TPG divvy it up? If the owner didn't recognize the overgrade then they are just SOL.
@Zoins said:
I agree submitters are the ones that have a relationship with TPG [...]
The original submitter has the initial relationship with PCGS. This relationship is governed by the 'PCGS Grading Terms & Conditions', and the 'Customer Agreement', which is incorporated via reference. That said, subsequent owners of PCGS-holdered coins can also have a relationship with PCGS. The conditions of this relationship are dictated by the 'PCGS Guarantee', should a subsequent owner decide to exercise this option.
@Zoins said:
[...] The onus for compensation may be on the TPG [...]
Agree. And the conditions for compensation, for either the original submitter or a subsequent owner, are clearly enumerated in the respective documents.
@Zoins said:
[...] but given that the increase in value is currently captured by the latest submitter, I think the only way to make compensating previous submitters financially viable is for those funds to be taken from the latest submitter by the TPG. A question is whether the last submitter would tolerate this. [...]
Why would the "latest submitter" be obligated to surrender the upgrade gains? In short, they have not agreed to do this.
@JoeLewis said:
The whole thing about the guarantee against upgrades doesn’t make sense to me. For most coins there are multiple previous owners. Should they all get compensated?
Good point. If multiple people need to be compensated, there could be double counting and more.
Also, the financial benefit is being captured by the latest submitter, so it’s the latest submitter that has funds to compensate previous owners. The other option is for the TPG to charge a percentage value for all upgrades to distribute to previous submitters.
Overall, it sounds like a complex scenario.
The PCGS guarantee applies only to submitters and not owners. Submitters pay PCGS for their opinion and owners don't. I don't think that owners are owed anything. Be sure you can prove the identity of the coin you send in in case you see it at a higher grade later. Unfortunately the grade guarantee doesn't apply if the coin upgrades, but if it did then the onus to compensate would be on PCGS.
I agree submitters are the ones that have a relationship with TPG and can be considered in such a discussion.
The onus for compensation may be on the TPG since they have a relationship with the submitters, but given that the increase in value is currently captured by the latest submitter, I think the only way to make compensating previous submitters financially viable is for those funds to be taken from the latest submitter by the TPG. A question is whether the last submitter would tolerate this.
Personally, I don't think it is that viable to compensate previous submitters and the conversation shows how complex it can be.
The TPG doesn't pay/compensate for an increase in value, but they charge you a percentage of the gift/increase depending I think on the type of resubmission .
They do, but it's a very small percentage now, 1% in come cases. If previous submitters need to be compensated for increase in value, I anticipate this needing to be increased, possibly substantially.
@BAJJERFAN said:
However the TPG compensates for a decrease in value. How are they or anyone else to know the ownership history of a coin from the time it was graded until it was eventually downgraded? If the loss of value was $100 how should a TPG divvy it up? If the owner didn't recognize the overgrade then they are just SOL.
I agree it's problematic, which is why I indicated I don't think this will work, no matter what the proponents say.
@Zoins said:
I agree submitters are the ones that have a relationship with TPG [...]
The original submitter has the initial relationship with PCGS. This relationship is governed by the 'PCGS Grading Terms & Conditions', and the 'Customer Agreement', which is incorporated via reference. That said, subsequent owners of PCGS-holdered coins can also have a relationship with PCGS. The conditions of this relationship are dictated by the 'PCGS Guarantee', should a subsequent owner decide to exercise this option.
@Zoins said:
[...] The onus for compensation may be on the TPG [...]
Agree. And the conditions for compensation, for either the original submitter or a subsequent owner, are clearly enumerated in the respective documents.
@Zoins said:
[...] but given that the increase in value is currently captured by the latest submitter, I think the only way to make compensating previous submitters financially viable is for those funds to be taken from the latest submitter by the TPG. A question is whether the last submitter would tolerate this. [...]
Why would the "latest submitter" be obligated to surrender the upgrade gains? In short, they have not agreed to do this.
Some people seem to be arguing that past submitters should be compensated for grade increases by later submitters. First of all, I've indicated I don't think this would happen. But if it did, I'm just saying I don't think this the funds would necessarily come from the TPG's funds as it is today, but possibly from the latest submitter if it ever went this far. While submitters aren't agreeing to this today, it would simply be a change to the TOS for future submitters to agree. Again, I indicated I don't think this will happen.
@lilolme said:
I agree and that is why I am reading the previous guarantee limitation to be addressing the 'Original' submitter (owner or any associates of) and that the guarantee does not apply to them (the 'Original').
I concur. The 'PCGS Guarantee' explicitly states that it does not apply to the original submitter, or any related party.
I certainly could have misinterpreted your prior post. Thought it implied that original submitters were ineligible for compensation in the event of overgrading. As I understand it, this is not correct, which is why I replied to you. See section 2.c of the 'Customer Agreement' for specifics.
Comments
Congrats! Those are some wonderful upgrades!
The PCGS guarantee applies only to submitters and not owners. Submitters pay PCGS for their opinion and owners don't. I don't think that owners are owed anything. Be sure you can prove the identity of the coin you send in in case you see it at a higher grade later. Unfortunately the grade guarantee doesn't apply if the coin upgrades, but if it did then the onus to compensate would be on PCGS.
Source: https://www.pcgs.com/guarantee
In other words, the guarantee applies to owners, and not submitters, instead of the other way around.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
.
Hmmm... I had a different reading of this. Might need an interpreter of forms. Not sure I am reading it correctly but this is what I got out of it.
I did not see it as an owner or submitter thing but as an Original submitter (or owner). That is, PCGS is saying if someone submits a coin (owner or submitter) and it is slabbed / graded by PCGS, then that same owner / submitter can not then resubmit the coin under the guarantee and be compensated via the guarantee. PCGS is further stating that anyone associated with the original owner / submitter (agents, family, employee's...) is also included in this.
The initial part of the guarantee starts off with:
'In the event the purchaser of a PCGS graded coin believes....'
I am thinking the PCGS guarantee is there to compensate purchasers of PCGS coins in the case of a guarantee type of thing. But this exemption is trying to say that if someone submits a coin that is not a PCGS coin and PCGS grades it, then that same someone (or anyone associated with them) can not claim the guarantee since they did not purchase a PCGS coin but only had it initially graded. That is there is not a loss due to purchasing a PCGS coin.
Not sure if I fully agree with my interpretation in some cases but I think that is what I read out of it. Again not sure I am reading it correctly.
Screen shot of more of the PCGS guarantee and text with the 'purchaser' near the top and the 'Original' statement near the bottom of the screen shot.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
shudda read it first eye guess.
PCGS uses the term “purchaser” having recourse under the guarantee which is distinct from initial “submitter.” @MFeld is correct.
It appears that the PCGS grading guarantee write-up says nothing at all about a coin that upgrades upon resubmission. The only mention of grades is where a coin has been over-graded by PCGS and then someone submits it for subsequent down-grade or if a grade on a slab is an obvious clerical error (they use an MS65 label for an MS60 coin as an example).
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
My take.
Original Submitter. Per section 2 of the 'PCGS Grading Terms & Conditions', they agree to be bound by the 'Customer Agreement'. The remedy for suspected improper grading is covered in section 2.c.
Subsequent Owners of the Holder. Covered by the 'PCGS Guarantee'.
Just want to state my opinion on the topic. As a collector, I’d rather have a slabbed coin that looks like it might be undergraded than one that looks like it’s maxed out grade wise and I’m willing to pay extra (over the going rate for the grade on the slab) for the ones that look like they might be undergraded. I don’t resubmit them or get them stickered, I just enjoy having them knowing they have possible upward potential. But if I was selling I wouldn’t be thinking that way.
Mr_Spud
I agree submitters are the ones that have a relationship with TPG and can be considered in such a discussion.
The onus for compensation may be on the TPG since they have a relationship with the submitters, but given that the increase in value is currently captured by the latest submitter, I think the only way to make compensating previous submitters financially viable is for those funds to be taken from the latest submitter by the TPG. A question is whether the last submitter would tolerate this.
Personally, I don't think it is that viable to compensate previous submitters and the conversation shows how complex it can be.
I agree and that is why I am reading the previous guarantee limitation to be addressing the 'Original' submitter (owner or any associates of) and that the guarantee does not apply to them (the 'Original').
https://youtube.com/watch?v=wwmUMvhy-lY - Pink Me And Bobby McGee
.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=D0FPxuQv2ns - Ruby Starr (from 'Go Jim Dandy') Maybe I'm Amazed
RLJ 1958 - 2023
I don’t see where we disagree. In case you interpreted my previous post (below) otherwise, “submitters” did not include “resubmitters”.
In other words, the guarantee applies to owners, and not submitters, instead of the other way around.”
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The TPG doesn't pay/compensate for an increase in value, but they charge you a percentage of the gift/increase depending I think on the type of resubmission . However the TPG compensates for a decrease in value. How are they or anyone else to know the ownership history of a coin from the time it was graded until it was eventually downgraded? If the loss of value was $100 how should a TPG divvy it up? If the owner didn't recognize the overgrade then they are just SOL.
The original submitter has the initial relationship with PCGS. This relationship is governed by the 'PCGS Grading Terms & Conditions', and the 'Customer Agreement', which is incorporated via reference. That said, subsequent owners of PCGS-holdered coins can also have a relationship with PCGS. The conditions of this relationship are dictated by the 'PCGS Guarantee', should a subsequent owner decide to exercise this option.
Agree. And the conditions for compensation, for either the original submitter or a subsequent owner, are clearly enumerated in the respective documents.
Why would the "latest submitter" be obligated to surrender the upgrade gains? In short, they have not agreed to do this.
They do, but it's a very small percentage now, 1% in come cases. If previous submitters need to be compensated for increase in value, I anticipate this needing to be increased, possibly substantially.
I agree it's problematic, which is why I indicated I don't think this will work, no matter what the proponents say.
Some people seem to be arguing that past submitters should be compensated for grade increases by later submitters. First of all, I've indicated I don't think this would happen. But if it did, I'm just saying I don't think this the funds would necessarily come from the TPG's funds as it is today, but possibly from the latest submitter if it ever went this far. While submitters aren't agreeing to this today, it would simply be a change to the TOS for future submitters to agree. Again, I indicated I don't think this will happen.
I concur. The 'PCGS Guarantee' explicitly states that it does not apply to the original submitter, or any related party.
I certainly could have misinterpreted your prior post. Thought it implied that original submitters were ineligible for compensation in the event of overgrading. As I understand it, this is not correct, which is why I replied to you. See section 2.c of the 'Customer Agreement' for specifics.