PCGS slabbed contemporary counterfeits
Zoins
Posts: 34,300 ✭✭✭✭✭
I just ran across this contemporary counterfeit coin again and was wondering if it's common for PCGS to these?
I know there is an avid collector community for contemporary counterfeits but the PCGS slabbed pieces don't seem common to me.
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Comments
I thought ICG was the only TPG that would slab counterfeits.
From PCGS's site: "In recent days, counterfeit coins in counterfeit PCGS slabs have begun to appear on eBay, the online auction site. All of the counterfeit coins/holders seen so far are coming out of China. Alert members of the PCGS Message Boards were the first to notify PCGS of the counterfeit coins/holders.
LINK: https://pcgs.com/news/counterfeit-pcgs-holders
It also states here that they will not holder counterfeits: https://pcgs.com/news/no-grade-coins-pt3
It also states on the label and on the link below that the coin is "Genuine" and "Counterfeit". WOW!! That's as clear as mud.
https://pcgs.com/cert/34995017
PCGS appears to refer to this as a Fantasy coin even though the label says counterfeit. Most likely because it wasn't minted to be deceptive? Maybe the label should say"Fantasy".
USAF (Ret.) 1985 - 2005. E-4B Aircraft Maintenance Crew Chief and Contracting Officer.
My current Registry sets:
✓ Everyman Mint State Carson City Morgan Dollars (1878 – 1893)
✓ Everyman Mint State Lincoln Cents (1909 – 1958)
✓ Morgan Dollar GSA Hoard (1878 – 1891)
Is there information to support this not being minted to be deceptive?
Does the obverse look anything like Liberty? NO!
My response is rhetorical.
USAF (Ret.) 1985 - 2005. E-4B Aircraft Maintenance Crew Chief and Contracting Officer.
My current Registry sets:
✓ Everyman Mint State Carson City Morgan Dollars (1878 – 1893)
✓ Everyman Mint State Lincoln Cents (1909 – 1958)
✓ Morgan Dollar GSA Hoard (1878 – 1891)
It has been widely recognized as the 1848 "Small Date"...Breen -1901. Termed a Fantasy Piece this cent is collected as part of the Late Date Large Cents. Ted Naftzger had the finest known graded AU55 by PCGS. He had 2 others graded by PCGS as well..one overstruck on an 1840 cent and the other was one that was owned by Howard Newcomb. They are considered rarity 7 and are highly sought after.
Isn't the first clue that it says both genuine and counterfeit on the same label? That would be a first giant red flag right there it may not be authentic, unless PCGS simply made an error, which does happen...
I would certainly be calling pcgs direct before thinking about something like that!
https://www.the4thcoin.com
https://www.ebay.com/str/thefourthcoin
Has anyone ever made a genuine counterfeit of a counterfeit?
Pete
I would argue that this is not a counterfeit as there was no intent to deceive anyone. This coin is like a Dan Carr creation. The fact that one was overstruck on a genuine 1840 cent shows without doubt there was no intended gain. Someone was just messing around.
PCGS calls it a counterfeit.
>
PCGS cert verification for this piece doesn't use the word counterfeit but uses the word Fantasy as the variety.
USAF (Ret.) 1985 - 2005. E-4B Aircraft Maintenance Crew Chief and Contracting Officer.
My current Registry sets:
✓ Everyman Mint State Carson City Morgan Dollars (1878 – 1893)
✓ Everyman Mint State Lincoln Cents (1909 – 1958)
✓ Morgan Dollar GSA Hoard (1878 – 1891)
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
@Tramp @robec
What you say is true on the verification page but read what the label says. I'm not trying to argue with anyone, but look at the whole picture, not just the part that makes your point. I'm simply pointing out the obvious using PCGS's own words. Your disagreement is with them, not me.
They do appear to be fighting one another.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
I think our host is conflicted.
USAF (Ret.) 1985 - 2005. E-4B Aircraft Maintenance Crew Chief and Contracting Officer.
My current Registry sets:
✓ Everyman Mint State Carson City Morgan Dollars (1878 – 1893)
✓ Everyman Mint State Lincoln Cents (1909 – 1958)
✓ Morgan Dollar GSA Hoard (1878 – 1891)
What do large cent experts think of this?
Is any definitive information known or are both classifications (counterfeit and fantasy) speculation?
This is a description HA used when auctioning one off in 2014:1848 1C Small Date Fantasy Cent AU53 PCGS. Breen-1901. Our EAC Grade XF40. An uncentered broadstrike with a large and slightly curved mint clip at 12:30. The unstruck surface is widest at 4:30. Toned golden-brown with lilac high points. A few light pinscratches on the portrait, the most conspicuous beneath the chin. The reverse has a couple of pinscratches near the N in CENT. Just 10 examples of this privately made "cent" are confirmed, and only two of those are listed in grades above Fine 12 in the Grellman and Noyes census lists. J.N.T. Levick owned an example in 1865, suggesting a circa-1850 production with intent to pass in circulation.
Ex: Hale Collection; B. Max Mehl; T. James Clarke (Abe Kosoff, 4/1956), lot 351; Herbert M. Oechsner, Stack's (9/1988), lot 196; R.E. Naftzger, Jr.; Superior (8/2004), lot 51; Chris McCawley, 8/2004; Dan Holmes (Ira & Larry Goldberg, 1/2011), lot 330.
From The Adam Mervis Large Cent Collection.
HA reaches the conclusion that "production with intent to pass in circulation." I would respectfully disagree....why are most found with clips, multistrikes, broadstrikes or as I noted before struck over an 1840 Large Cent. One would think a true counterfeit operation would produce a better product. One that would pass in circulation unnoticed. These would surely be noticed. Maybe akin to the Jefferson Head Large Cent...not a mint product but surely of better quality than these Fantasy pieces.
Regarding the following:
I'm guessing that during the time period, quality didn't have to be that high to pass in circulation.
How does it compare to the quality of other contemporary counterfeits? My understanding is that many of them weren't done very well, which is part of their appeal.
@Zoins The strongest piece of evidence for these being a Fantasy Piece not a counterfeit is the coin Lot 901 from the Naftzger sale of 2009. This lot is an 1848 small date overstruck on a 1840 N-12. What true counterfeiting operation would take a real cent and use it to strike a counterfeit? There is no logic to it. They may well have passed in commerce ....given their well worn state they probably did....but their manufacturing intent IMO was for reasons other than deception.
It seems just 1 specimen out of 10 known is overstruck a real cent. Do you know if any others are overstruck real cents? If it's just 1 of 10, it seems it would likely be a fluke.
Here's the overstruck specimen.
PCGS CoinFacts has the following from Ron Guth @BestGerman, past PCGS President, regarding the Breen-1901 1848 small date large cent:
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1848-1c-sm-dt-breen-1901-fantasy-bn/403850
super good post RLsnapper
So, there is great information on this thread! For some more information, two of the most sought after Large Cent contemporary counterfeits are overstruck on genuine large cents. The 1818 Large Cent counterfeit is the most famous, known since 1860 (or so), of the less than 10 known, multiple are overstruck on genuine large cents. This has given pause to some assuming things from later manufacture to C.W. Betts making them with his other fantasies (which needs more looking at IMO).
I would call the 1848 a contemporary issue and is collected as such. These are difficult unless you are a specialist to work through the question marks and then use the evidence available. Some of the most expensive colonials are the contemporary counterfeits, which are quite similar to the large cent counterparts. But the overstrike on real large cents has been questioned. I’m not sure myself, but the top buyers and researchers do believe with evidence they are contemporary.
I will need to go through this thread again... Counterfeit, contemporary counterfeit, fantasy, real coin used, fake coin.... Oh well, this will be fun.... Cheers, RickO
So I have done a bit more detective work...here is the discovery coin from the 2002 Robbie Brown sale. The provenance of this coin includes J.N.T. Levick in 1865, Loren Parmelee, Thomas Elder, Henry Hines, Homer Downing, Floyd T. Star and Jack Robinson. This coin looks like a contemporary counterfeit...its only defect having a slightly misaligned obverse die. Why so many others are double struck, off center, clipped planchet and more errors I don't know. The makers could obviously make a cent that could pass....why all the odd fellows? I speculate that some were struck as counterfeits circa. 1850 and others were struck as "Fantasy" for collectors after 1857 using the same dies but with obvious defects so not to be called a counterfeit and run afoul of the law.
JNT Levick is well known to token collectors as the “godfather” of collecting merchant and civil war tokens. He was literally collecting everything not federal. His auction is on the Newman portal, and contains items that before anyone had seen the sale, items that were considered modern counterfeits or fantasies! I have used his auction to prove on a couple merchant tokens their true era of manufacture.
The fact that Levick owned one is interesting in itself. Most of what he had would not have been a federal issue, though he did certainly have “regular” coins. I’ll have to look up the auction to see how it was described back then. But certainly the 1848 Lg. cents are items with a lot of age behind them!