Newp: 1897-O NGC Morgan Dollar - Will it Cross? Revealed 7/18/23
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So I recently picked up this 1897-O Dollar. 1897-O Morgans are tough in the higher grades. It just arrived and it looks even better in hand. I wasn't looking for one but this one looked really nice to upgrade my existing coin and I got it at what I think is a good price for what the holder said so I couldn't pass it up. I think it is under-graded (don't we all), but we'll see what you guys and PCGS have to say. This one is in a 1997-2001-era NGC holder but I will be sending it in to cross next week. Hint: It is graded MSxx but if you think it's AU say so. Here is pictures and video.
Questions:
1. What is it currently graded/what should it grade at PCGS (if different)? Hint, it is currently NGC MS
2. Do you see any signs of wear or any other issues which would make PCGS give it an AU grade? I don't but I don't always see it.
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Youtube:
https://youtu.be/fIRGF9FeFE8
Comments
Had you not told me, I would have guessed AU58 shot AU58+. It could be the pictures, but there appears to be trace high point friction especially on the curl above the ear and the breast feathers. I’d call it a super slider.
Since you told me it is MS, I’ll guess MS61.
To me, this is a great example of what a ms60 netted grade should look like. Coin is in nice flashy condition except for the flat head screw driver someone used to chisel on Liberty’s cheek.
I don’t see a reason to dump more money into this coin, but to each their own.
I'd call it a MS62.
Coin Photographer.
61
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Overdipped in my opinion; is that the "look" typical of that date/mm? Low unc., max at 62. It is really tough to get competitor grading services to agree on grade.
Here's a few from Coinfacts to compare:
MS63+:
MS63:
MS62:
MS61:
MS60:
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I'd say it is in an ngc ms64 for that holder, perhaps 65 and think it would be pcgs 63. But I am a historically bad grader.
@dollarfan said:
Look at the damage to the lower central portion of Liberty’s cheek. That should eliminate each of the above mentioned grades from consideration.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I hope you’re not thinking (or even hoping for) 63. Yours looks noticeably inferior to all but the MS60 and 61 examples.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I'm not tipping my hand yet, I'm providing a full spectrum. I do note that some of the 62's and 63's in the Coinfacts photos have considerable cheek marks as well.
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Im thinking it in a 62 holder currently.
@MFeld What @dollarfan was implying is that its in an NGC holder so it must be overgraded.
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Thinking 61 at best with the limiting factor being the scrape or strike thru on her cheek. Overall luster looks washed out. I personally would keep it in that original holder. Best of luck whichever way you go.
Does this help?:
Is that a bunch of hairline scratches on the cheek?
Many will just not take the time to learn how to grade, and are totally reliant on the grading cos while a course can be taken to improve one's skills conducted by the ANA.
True, but what grade would you assign to the coin?
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Lots of slider coins with this Date/MM.
It's harder to find a MS with a decent strike and luster.
Often see the 61/62 grade.
That is my guess.
Will it cross?
If your coin is a 61, or possibly a 62, I would give it a shot.
Probably MS61. That cheek really knocks it back, or will if you try to cross.
Nice looking coin, though!
That's a great close up photo. MS60 or 61.
63-64 now, it should go 61/62 at our hosts imho.
It appears that you have a distorted view of NGC's grading.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
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@1Madman was the only one to really nail its current grade: MS60. I am surprised NGC would grade it this low.
I think it will cross at 61 (+$400 guide value) with a shot at 62 (+$750 guide value). I have a lot of 61's and 62's where Liberty's cheek has much more damage, and the fields on this one are pretty clean. The only spoiler would be if PCGS sees some wear and deems it AU. I'll probably submit for a traditional crossover service but wondering if there's any risk in cracking it out, just to un-bias the graders and save the crossover tax.
Overall, I think for an MS60 they don't get much nicer than this so I am happy with the coin. I'll still be happy if it crosses at 60. In that case I think it will surely CAC.
I will post the crossover results when I get them.
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I wrote IMHO for a reason.
It does not have to be the right guess, or politically correct, but if I chose to be distorted today on this one, that is my choice, and forgive me for being totally off it seems.
Looks like the cheek damage held it back. The cheek is the first thing I look at on a Morgan.
Sure, but 60-63's rarely have clean cheeks.
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That’s true, but the depth of the damage to the cheek on yours is as deep as I’ve seen on a straight grade example. For whatever reason - ownership, perhaps? - you seem to be ignoring the extent of the flaws.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Not sure I agree that MS63's rarely have clean cheeks. I know I bot many, primarily in older slabs.
Yours will probably cross but also doubt it will grade higher. Since you have already made the grade reveal, here is my NGC MS60 79-S Reverse 78 to compare. Still own it. Maybe a very conservative grading on their behalf. Scattered chatter.
The fact that NGC only graded it MS60 tells you a lot. The grade is usually reserved for coins that are very close to body bag status.
I think if you took a random sampling of MS63 Morgans on ebay you'd see that less than 10-15% have reasonably clean cheeks. I would resubmit yours, I think it is an easy 62.
The MS63 from PCGS photograde has a marked up cheek:
The pictures of my coin really enhance and show every single defect, in person the coin looks better. Maybe I'll take some shots tonight and see if I can demonstrate this.
I would like to show this example of a PCGS 79-CC MS62PL that I own with significant cheek marks. Maybe this one should be MS60?
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This is the MS60 example from PCGS Photograde:
and MS61:
and MS62:
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Lol I clearly drink too much beer and need glasses badly. It looks like a 64 more than ever now.
By the end of the night she'll be looking like a superb gem, ms-67+ ! 🍻😂
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I think you’d die of alcohol poisoning first.
My coin vs photograde. Kind of hard to believe they have the same grade, eh?
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If I had a couple busch heavies it would be a Matt proof lololol
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Just got the crossover results: MS61
I think it still has a shot at MS62 comparing to the others on Coinfacts. I'm contemplating sending in for re-grade. Then eventually off to CAC when I get a round tuit.
At $1200 original purchase price I'm quite happy with this one.
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That was fast, what service did you use?
Congrats!
That’s what holder I thought it should be in.
Good luck on the re-grade.
It really is a beautiful coin!
Congratulations!
It looks nothing like the first images provided to us. In your photos, the circled red area looked like damage into the metal.
Its a decent strike for that date.
Nice.
Congrats on the higher grade cross. That’s what I thought the grade should be.
Late to the game, but MS61 does not surprise me....especially with the subsequent pictures. Cheers, RickO