I read a lot of those auction pages with the characteristics listed above. I have a thread about the funny language in them. I have seen a couple of these sellers who have extensive completed sales of pocket change at the fantasy prices with one bid (thousands of dollars of sales). I knew that there were shenanigans, but until someone suggested money laundering, it made little sense to me. I will post one if I come across a clear example.
I check sellers’ other items and then apply the sold filter.
Here are two examples of sold listings with that exact title:
Notice how both sellers have no prior record of sales and both bidders are no longer registered users. This lends credence to the laundering theory.
Except that you could launder 100x more money through a BTC transaction with almost no trail.
It makes little sense as money laundering. You would have to pay with already laundered money. You can't use cash on ebay.
About the only thing you could be doing is using stolen Visa gift cards to turn them into cash. But you're doing it in public with a digital paper trail.
And if it is money laundering, why aren't 100% of the listings actually sold instead of 1%?
Now you're on to something. Say the criminal organization has a database of stolen credit card numbers:
Set up an auction with fake account. Bid on auction with another fake account. Pay for item with stolen credit card. Cash out. Fake buyer is kicked off eBay once the credit card is reported stolen.
Except, again, why aren't 100% of the listings resulting in actual sales?
Because that would be suspicious. Nobody sells 100% of what they have on eBay. What you want to do is hide your criminal activity amongst thousands of auctions with different usernames for sellers and buyers. You may want one sale per 100 postings. If you are posting thousands of items under different accounts using bots, then you can easily spread things out so that they are harder to track. You need to think like a criminal.
Nobody sells 1% of what they list. And most of the accounts you're taking about only have 1 or 2 listings. It would hardly be suspicious if 1 or 2 items sold.
And if you wanted to avoid suspicion, you would list items that actually appear real. Or haven't you noticed that everyone is suspicious already.
We’re suspicious because we know coins. This is a vast sea of fake accounts and fake listings. A launderer, tax avoider or international money mover may have 100s of accounts run by bots. Intermixed in those are people who see what the launderers are doing and they also put up stupid listings because they don’t get it and they think someone is going to buy pocket change for real money, and they are emulating it. On top of that, the world is filled with stupid people, some of whom are going to “bite” on a listing or are going to list something they think is special even though it isn’t. You’re looking at a huge conglomeration of sophisticated money movers, scammers, idiots, copycats and morons and you’re trying to identify a single causation for it. The single causation is that eBay doesn’t care.
@Vasanti said:
We’re suspicious because we know coins. This is a vast sea of fake accounts and fake listings. A launderer, tax avoider or international money mover may have 100s of accounts run by bots. Intermixed in those are people who see what the launderers are doing and they also put up stupid listings because they don’t get it and they think someone is going to buy pocket change for real money, and they are emulating it. On top of that, the world is filled with stupid people, some of whom are going to “bite” on a listing or are going to list something they think is special even though it isn’t. You’re looking at a huge conglomeration of sophisticated money movers, scammers, idiots, copycats and morons and you’re trying to identify a single causation for it. The single causation is that eBay doesn’t care.
Ebay does care. It's not as simple a problem as you make it out to be because if the conglomeration you refer to.
I'm not looking for a single cause. All the people calling it money laundering are looking for a single cause.
@Vasanti said:
We’re suspicious because we know coins. This is a vast sea of fake accounts and fake listings. A launderer, tax avoider or international money mover may have 100s of accounts run by bots. Intermixed in those are people who see what the launderers are doing and they also put up stupid listings because they don’t get it and they think someone is going to buy pocket change for real money, and they are emulating it. On top of that, the world is filled with stupid people, some of whom are going to “bite” on a listing or are going to list something they think is special even though it isn’t. You’re looking at a huge conglomeration of sophisticated money movers, scammers, idiots, copycats and morons and you’re trying to identify a single causation for it. The single causation is that eBay doesn’t care.
Doesn't matter. What @jmlanzaf is saying is that if this was really money laundering, or a vehicle to charge stolen credit cards, any item at all could be listed, at any price, since the transactions are all internal and NOTHING would actually being bought, sold or shipped.
You could list really expensive jewelry, electronics, etc. at somewhat inflated prices, rather than listing garbage at obnoxiously inflated prices. These are stupid fishing expeditions, not sophisticated international criminal rings laundering money $600 or $1,500 at a time.
Following along here. I’m taking in the interesting points of view. Seems that maybe this is happening but then again some folks have pointed out that it’s not a good way to launder money.
That said, here’s my take away.
As a regular eBay customer ( like 3-6 times a week, maybe more) I find that this information, while fascinating isn’t of much use for me. I will continue to enjoy the fantastic number of great purchases and will remember the things said.
And with that, my torch I carry with respect to eBay is simply
Caveat Emptor. Thanks 🙏
Yeah... I have to agree with @Jzyskowski1 ... I dont use ebay as much as I used to but there are a few sellers that I follow on that platform and occasionally, I find something nice. Caveat emptor when bidding and definitely look at the return policy!
As for the depth of bogus offerings... it could be due to any number of reasons, many of which have been presented in this thread. Cheats and scams are all over and not just limited to ebay. I'm sure ebay does what they can to limit them... I as well as others on this forum have successfully gotten fraudulent items removed... but it's a neverending game of whack-a-mole and how much resources can ebay be expected to commit in order to police the platform?
That said, I'll continue to use my search terms to filter out as many of the bogus auctions as I can and "carry on"...
Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;
@Vasanti said:
We’re suspicious because we know coins. This is a vast sea of fake accounts and fake listings. A launderer, tax avoider or international money mover may have 100s of accounts run by bots. Intermixed in those are people who see what the launderers are doing and they also put up stupid listings because they don’t get it and they think someone is going to buy pocket change for real money, and they are emulating it. On top of that, the world is filled with stupid people, some of whom are going to “bite” on a listing or are going to list something they think is special even though it isn’t. You’re looking at a huge conglomeration of sophisticated money movers, scammers, idiots, copycats and morons and you’re trying to identify a single causation for it. The single causation is that eBay doesn’t care.
Doesn't matter. What @jmlanzaf is saying is that if this was really money laundering, or a vehicle to charge stolen credit cards, any item at all could be listed, at any price, since the transactions are all internal and NOTHING would actually being bought, sold or shipped.
You could list really expensive jewelry, electronics, etc. at somewhat inflated prices, rather than listing garbage at obnoxiously inflated prices. These are stupid fishing expeditions, not sophisticated international criminal rings laundering money $600 or $1,500 at a time.
Why then are the accounts bidding on these items also bots?
@Vasanti said:
We’re suspicious because we know coins. This is a vast sea of fake accounts and fake listings. A launderer, tax avoider or international money mover may have 100s of accounts run by bots. Intermixed in those are people who see what the launderers are doing and they also put up stupid listings because they don’t get it and they think someone is going to buy pocket change for real money, and they are emulating it. On top of that, the world is filled with stupid people, some of whom are going to “bite” on a listing or are going to list something they think is special even though it isn’t. You’re looking at a huge conglomeration of sophisticated money movers, scammers, idiots, copycats and morons and you’re trying to identify a single causation for it. The single causation is that eBay doesn’t care.
Doesn't matter. What @jmlanzaf is saying is that if this was really money laundering, or a vehicle to charge stolen credit cards, any item at all could be listed, at any price, since the transactions are all internal and NOTHING would actually being bought, sold or shipped.
You could list really expensive jewelry, electronics, etc. at somewhat inflated prices, rather than listing garbage at obnoxiously inflated prices. These are stupid fishing expeditions, not sophisticated international criminal rings laundering money $600 or $1,500 at a time.
Why then are the accounts bidding on these items also bots?
That's what got me to thinking that at least some of the sellers/buyers are just smoke-and-mirrors to demonstrate some form of income to put down on a loan application... especially if there's a 1099.
Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;
If we assume that there is indeed some vast money laundering scheme involving multiple bots, which I consider to be very plausible, could the scheme not also include some “sales” that are apparent losses to offset the apparent gains so that nobody has to pay income taxes on the apparent income?
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@Vasanti said:
We’re suspicious because we know coins. This is a vast sea of fake accounts and fake listings. A launderer, tax avoider or international money mover may have 100s of accounts run by bots. Intermixed in those are people who see what the launderers are doing and they also put up stupid listings because they don’t get it and they think someone is going to buy pocket change for real money, and they are emulating it. On top of that, the world is filled with stupid people, some of whom are going to “bite” on a listing or are going to list something they think is special even though it isn’t. You’re looking at a huge conglomeration of sophisticated money movers, scammers, idiots, copycats and morons and you’re trying to identify a single causation for it. The single causation is that eBay doesn’t care.
Doesn't matter. What @jmlanzaf is saying is that if this was really money laundering, or a vehicle to charge stolen credit cards, any item at all could be listed, at any price, since the transactions are all internal and NOTHING would actually being bought, sold or shipped.
You could list really expensive jewelry, electronics, etc. at somewhat inflated prices, rather than listing garbage at obnoxiously inflated prices. These are stupid fishing expeditions, not sophisticated international criminal rings laundering money $600 or $1,500 at a time.
What you are describing happens all the time. There are a ton of federal cases that involve the use of eBay, Etsy and other amateur seller markets to launder money, sell drugs, send money to terrorists, traffic in people, avoid taxes, create fake tax losses, avoid sanctions, move money across borders for illicit activity and a host of other things. It is certainly not limited to coins or other collectibles.
@CaptHenway said:
If we assume that there is indeed some vast money laundering scheme involving multiple bots, which I consider to be very plausible, could the scheme not also include some “sales” that are apparent losses to offset the apparent gains so that nobody has to pay income taxes on the apparent income?
It's not just laundering. Its moving money internationally to avoid scrutiny and sanctions, its moving money internationally to avoid fees, its tax avoidance, its creating false tax losses, its the purchase of illegal and illicit items under false pretenses, and on and on and on. Mixed into that are dumb people, scammers, dirtbags and the hopeful.
@CaptHenway said:
If we assume that there is indeed some vast money laundering scheme involving multiple bots, which I consider to be very plausible, could the scheme not also include some “sales” that are apparent losses to offset the apparent gains so that nobody has to pay income taxes on the apparent income?
It's not just laundering. Its moving money internationally to avoid scrutiny and sanctions, its moving money internationally to avoid fees, its tax avoidance, its creating false tax losses, its the purchase of illegal and illicit items under false pretenses, and on and on and on. Mixed into that are dumb people, scammers, dirtbags and the hopeful.
Much easier ways to move money internationally with no fees.
@CaptHenway said:
If we assume that there is indeed some vast money laundering scheme involving multiple bots, which I consider to be very plausible, could the scheme not also include some “sales” that are apparent losses to offset the apparent gains so that nobody has to pay income taxes on the apparent income?
It's not just laundering. Its moving money internationally to avoid scrutiny and sanctions, its moving money internationally to avoid fees, its tax avoidance, its creating false tax losses, its the purchase of illegal and illicit items under false pretenses, and on and on and on. Mixed into that are dumb people, scammers, dirtbags and the hopeful.
Much easier ways to move money internationally with no fees.
I'm sure there are. There are also a pile of federal cases where people were using eBay. I'm kind of at a loss as to why you are arguing about this. It's objectively true that it happens.
@CaptHenway said:
If we assume that there is indeed some vast money laundering scheme involving multiple bots, which I consider to be very plausible, could the scheme not also include some “sales” that are apparent losses to offset the apparent gains so that nobody has to pay income taxes on the apparent income?
It's not just laundering. Its moving money internationally to avoid scrutiny and sanctions, its moving money internationally to avoid fees, its tax avoidance, its creating false tax losses, its the purchase of illegal and illicit items under false pretenses, and on and on and on. Mixed into that are dumb people, scammers, dirtbags and the hopeful.
Much easier ways to move money internationally with no fees.
I'm sure there are. There are also a pile of federal cases where people were using eBay. I'm kind of at a loss as to why you are arguing about this. Its objectively true that it happens.
It happens. However I really don't think the majority of the listings posted are for international money laundering.
Do you have a reference for the "piles" of Federal cases where ebay was used for money laundering?
Another strong possibility is people creating businesses as tax avoidance/tax evasion schemes. It works by having a business that is chronically unsuccessful so that it takes a net loss every year. The unsuccessful auctions are "proof" that the business is trying to be a business, but it is not really trying to be a business. Essentially, you don't want to sell anything so that you can take the loss on your taxes, which is illegal.
This article is spot on. Exactly what we have going on in the US Coins category. _Legitimate Beanie Baby collectors have a theory. “Its’ either money laundering or bogus transactions”
The part about 'vigilant buyers' is especially germane; when we do see sales that appear legitimate, these could be vigilante eBay users who bid - with no intention to pay - as a way of punishing the seller for unsavory behavior.
Another eBay search that will illustrate the point of this article and our thread is: Rare 1776-1976 Bicentennial Quarter
This one seems to be a favorite of the scam network as there hundreds of current listings with these exact words from 0 feedback sellers at any given time. Many of these have sold at ridiculously high levels. Digging into the bid history, we see all high bidders are no longer registered:
@Vasanti said:
Another strong possibility is people creating businesses as tax avoidance/tax evasion schemes. It works by having a business that is chronically unsuccessful so that it takes a net loss every year. The unsuccessful auctions are "proof" that the business is trying to be a business, but it is not really trying to be a business. Essentially, you don't want to sell anything so that you can take the loss on your taxes, which is illegal.
Cool. But that’s not money laundering. It’s creative tax shuffling. It’s a gamble but there’s zillions of folks looking to find tax loopholes. Doesn’t make em international money laundering gangsters.
Thanks 🙏
@CaptHenway said:
If we assume that there is indeed some vast money laundering scheme involving multiple bots, which I consider to be very plausible, could the scheme not also include some “sales” that are apparent losses to offset the apparent gains so that nobody has to pay income taxes on the apparent income?
It's not just laundering. Its moving money internationally to avoid scrutiny and sanctions, its moving money internationally to avoid fees, its tax avoidance, its creating false tax losses, its the purchase of illegal and illicit items under false pretenses, and on and on and on. Mixed into that are dumb people, scammers, dirtbags and the hopeful.
Much easier ways to move money internationally with no fees.
I'm sure there are. There are also a pile of federal cases where people were using eBay. I'm kind of at a loss as to why you are arguing about this. It's objectively true that it happens.
Only one of those links involves fake ebay transactions. The other 2 fall under what I would call easier, less visible ways to launder money. Even the one ebay case mentioned (involving 1 person) involved less suspicious "printers" and multiple transactions to a single account not $500 pocket change and no more than one transaction per account.
I think those references support what I've been saying. There may be some money laundering (gift cards?) but the majority (all?) of those coin listings are not that.
Now, it is true that hackers will flood your email to make it hard to find the fraudulent purchase amid all the spam. However, there is no need to do that on ebay where the fraudulent transaction is "hidden" by the millions of legitimate transactions. In fact, a bunch of fake accounts and fake listings only calls more attention to you.
If I wanted to launder money, I would do a direct BTC transaction. It is less visible and less costly than a public ebay transaction with 12 to 15% in transaction fees. The fraudulent ebay sale makes more sense for stolen gift cards than international cartels. And even then there is little point in using a bot to create dozens (hundreds) of transactions, 99% of the listings resulting in no sales.
If you have a lot of stolen credit cards, you would create multiple buying accounts and a few selling accounts. Ideally, you sell a digital asset like an ebook and you let your fake accounts buy as many as they can or want until someone catches on. It is incredibly difficult and useless to create numerous selling accounts because each has to be linked to a bank account in order to receive the payments.
This article is spot on. Exactly what we have going on in the US Coins category. _Legitimate Beanie Baby collectors have a theory. “Its’ either money laundering or bogus transactions”
The part about 'vigilant buyers' is especially germane; when we do see sales that appear legitimate, these could be vigilante eBay users who bid - with no intention to pay - as a way of punishing the seller for unsavory behavior.
Another eBay search that will illustrate the point of this article and our thread is: Rare 1776-1976 Bicentennial Quarter
This one seems to be a favorite of the scam network as there hundreds of current listings with these exact words from 0 feedback sellers at any given time. Many of these have sold at ridiculously high levels. Digging into the bid history, we see all high bidders are no longer registered:
That does prove, by the way, that ebay cares. The "not a registered user" is probably because ebay booted them.
@CaptHenway said:
If we assume that there is indeed some vast money laundering scheme involving multiple bots, which I consider to be very plausible, could the scheme not also include some “sales” that are apparent losses to offset the apparent gains so that nobody has to pay income taxes on the apparent income?
It's not just laundering. Its moving money internationally to avoid scrutiny and sanctions, its moving money internationally to avoid fees, its tax avoidance, its creating false tax losses, its the purchase of illegal and illicit items under false pretenses, and on and on and on. Mixed into that are dumb people, scammers, dirtbags and the hopeful.
Much easier ways to move money internationally with no fees.
I'm sure there are. There are also a pile of federal cases where people were using eBay. I'm kind of at a loss as to why you are arguing about this. Its objectively true that it happens.
It happens. However I really don't think the majority of the listings posted are for international money laundering.
Do you have a reference for the "piles" of Federal cases where ebay was used for money laundering?
@Vasanti said:
Another strong possibility is people creating businesses as tax avoidance/tax evasion schemes. It works by having a business that is chronically unsuccessful so that it takes a net loss every year. The unsuccessful auctions are "proof" that the business is trying to be a business, but it is not really trying to be a business. Essentially, you don't want to sell anything so that you can take the loss on your taxes, which is illegal.
Cool. But that’s not money laundering. It’s creative tax shuffling. It’s a gamble but there’s zillions of folks looking to find tax loopholes. Doesn’t make em international money laundering gangsters.
Thanks 🙏
As I keep saying, none of this is one thing. It’s a combination of things. There are multiple reasons why a person would artificially inflate the price of an eBay auction to absurd levels, including trying to separate an uneducated person from their money. Once again, the explanations include money laundering, fraud, tax evasion, tax avoidance, stupidity, irrational hope, circumventing non-US money transfer laws and regulations, purchasing things like drugs under false pretenses and many other reasons. Anyway, I really don’t care if you don’t believe it. I find arguing with strangers on the internet to be pedantic.
This article is spot on. Exactly what we have going on in the US Coins category. _Legitimate Beanie Baby collectors have a theory. “Its’ either money laundering or bogus transactions”
The part about 'vigilant buyers' is especially germane; when we do see sales that appear legitimate, these could be vigilante eBay users who bid - with no intention to pay - as a way of punishing the seller for unsavory behavior.
Another eBay search that will illustrate the point of this article and our thread is: Rare 1776-1976 Bicentennial Quarter
This one seems to be a favorite of the scam network as there hundreds of current listings with these exact words from 0 feedback sellers at any given time. Many of these have sold at ridiculously high levels. Digging into the bid history, we see all high bidders are no longer registered:
That does prove, by the way, that ebay cares. The "not a registered user" is probably because ebay booted them.
It's likely that it was caught by eBay's AML (anti-money laundering) team.
I think my biggest problem these days are all of the horrible, hideous artificially toned coins that are now everywhere you look.
I also dislike obvious scams with images and listing techniques.
The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
This article is spot on. Exactly what we have going on in the US Coins category. _Legitimate Beanie Baby collectors have a theory. “Its’ either money laundering or bogus transactions”
The part about 'vigilant buyers' is especially germane; when we do see sales that appear legitimate, these could be vigilante eBay users who bid - with no intention to pay - as a way of punishing the seller for unsavory behavior.
Another eBay search that will illustrate the point of this article and our thread is: Rare 1776-1976 Bicentennial Quarter
This one seems to be a favorite of the scam network as there hundreds of current listings with these exact words from 0 feedback sellers at any given time. Many of these have sold at ridiculously high levels. Digging into the bid history, we see all high bidders are no longer registered:
That does prove, by the way, that ebay cares. The "not a registered user" is probably because ebay booted them.
Why didn't eBay boot the seller or remove the listing?
Conversely, there are hidden deals. Look for sellers with much good feedback, whose pages of any combination of merchandise include only one numismatic item. Look at how much they sell in their sold transactions; look for signs of shenanigans, like the same item having been sold and is in a current auction too. They only sell coins when they get them with all of the other junk that they only sell when they get that too.
Not all of the recta-75 (0) “coin dealers” ask exorbitant prices and they miss stuff on the side of the coin about which YouTube did not learn them.
A few sellers that I have watched are getting savvy and sell good modern coins for a dollar plus eighty-four cents for shipping.
You gotta lay your eyes on a lot of crap, then you have to read it. It’s a textual treasure house.
It reminds me of picking scrapyards, recycling centers, and basement clean outs.
FWIW, your Vice story describes people creating fake bids in an effort to lure other people in. The inflated sales are later canceled. There is ultimately no reported transaction. This is not international money laundering, or anything resembling it. It is fishing for suckers. Nothing more, nothing less.
FWIW, your Vice story describes people creating fake bids in an effort to lure other people in. The inflated sales are later canceled. There is ultimately no reported transaction. This is not international money laundering, or anything resembling it. It is fishing for suckers. Nothing more, nothing less.
It says that’s one explanation for some sales, but it doesn’t say that’s the only explanation or the only fact pattern. This is what I mean about pedantic internet arguments.
FWIW, your Vice story describes people creating fake bids in an effort to lure other people in. The inflated sales are later canceled. There is ultimately no reported transaction. This is not international money laundering, or anything resembling it. It is fishing for suckers. Nothing more, nothing less.
It says that’s one explanation for some sales, but it doesn’t say that’s the only explanation or the only fact pattern. This is what I mean about pedantic internet arguments.
I don't know what to tell you, pedantic or otherwise. If the transaction is later canceled, it's by definition not money laundering, regardless of what an uneducated legitimate Beanie Baby collector might think, BECAUSE MONEY ISN'T MOVING!!!!
If all you want to do is launder money, you can list something worth $14,000 for $14,000, buy it from yourself, move the money, and never actually ship the item to yourself. Or, if you want, you can even ship it to create a shipping record. You don't need to involve pocket change or Beanie Babies. You also don't need to involve eBay and its prying eyes and AML surveillance, such as it is.
FWIW, your Vice story describes people creating fake bids in an effort to lure other people in. The inflated sales are later canceled. There is ultimately no reported transaction. This is not international money laundering, or anything resembling it. It is fishing for suckers. Nothing more, nothing less.
It says that’s one explanation for some sales, but it doesn’t say that’s the only explanation or the only fact pattern. This is what I mean about pedantic internet arguments.
I don't know what to tell you, pedantic or otherwise. If the transaction is later canceled, it's by definition not money laundering, regardless of what an uneducated legitimate Beanie Baby collector might think, BECAUSE MONEY ISN'T MOVING!!!!
If all you want to do is launder money, you can list something worth $14,000 for $14,000, buy it from yourself, move the money, and never actually ship the item to yourself. Or, if you want, you can even ship it to create a shipping record. You don't need to involve pocket change or Beanie Babies. You also don't need to involve eBay and its prying eyes and AML surveillance, such as it is.
You’re looking at part of the article and ignoring the other part that deals with different fact patterns of transactions. I’m really not sure how many times I can say that there are multiple reasons to list these kinds of items. If you don’t want to believe that money laundering is one of them, I really don’t care.
FWIW, your Vice story describes people creating fake bids in an effort to lure other people in. The inflated sales are later canceled. There is ultimately no reported transaction. This is not international money laundering, or anything resembling it. It is fishing for suckers. Nothing more, nothing less.
It says that’s one explanation for some sales, but it doesn’t say that’s the only explanation or the only fact pattern. This is what I mean about pedantic internet arguments.
I don't know what to tell you, pedantic or otherwise. If the transaction is later canceled, it's by definition not money laundering, regardless of what an uneducated legitimate Beanie Baby collector might think, BECAUSE MONEY ISN'T MOVING!!!!
If all you want to do is launder money, you can list something worth $14,000 for $14,000, buy it from yourself, move the money, and never actually ship the item to yourself. Or, if you want, you can even ship it to create a shipping record. You don't need to involve pocket change or Beanie Babies. You also don't need to involve eBay and its prying eyes and AML surveillance, such as it is.
You’re looking at part of the article and ignoring the other part that deals with different fact patterns of transactions. I’m really not sure how many times I can say that there are multiple reasons to list thesekinds of items. If you don’t want to believe that money laundering is one of them, I really don’t care.
You're right. But I did read the entire article, and did not see a single reference to a completed inflated sale. Did I miss it, or was the point of the article that the listings are scams designed to make dopes believe Beanies are selling for crazy prices, not money laundering schemes?
No, I don't want to believe it, because it makes no sense on its face. Even though, as you correctly point out, and as random "legitimate Beanie Baby collectors" speculate, anything is theoretically possible.
FWIW, your Vice story describes people creating fake bids in an effort to lure other people in. The inflated sales are later canceled. There is ultimately no reported transaction. This is not international money laundering, or anything resembling it. It is fishing for suckers. Nothing more, nothing less.
It says that’s one explanation for some sales, but it doesn’t say that’s the only explanation or the only fact pattern. This is what I mean about pedantic internet arguments.
I don't know what to tell you, pedantic or otherwise. If the transaction is later canceled, it's by definition not money laundering, regardless of what an uneducated legitimate Beanie Baby collector might think, BECAUSE MONEY ISN'T MOVING!!!!
If all you want to do is launder money, you can list something worth $14,000 for $14,000, buy it from yourself, move the money, and never actually ship the item to yourself. Or, if you want, you can even ship it to create a shipping record. You don't need to involve pocket change or Beanie Babies. You also don't need to involve eBay and its prying eyes and AML surveillance, such as it is.
You’re looking at part of the article and ignoring the other part that deals with different fact patterns of transactions. I’m really not sure how many times I can say that there are multiple reasons to list thesekinds of items. If you don’t want to believe that money laundering is one of them, I really don’t care.
You're right. But I did read the entire article, and did not see a single reference to a completed inflated sale. Did I miss it, or was the point of the article that the listings are scams designed to make dopes believe Beanies are selling for crazy prices, not money laundering schemes?
No, I don't want to believe it, because it makes no sense on its face. Even though, as you correctly point out, and as random "legitimate Beanie Baby collectors" speculate, anything is theoretically possible.
I went on the eBay forum. There are people in just about every category spinning theories about these listings. Many of them get to money laundering. However, I agree with you, that is unlikely for a major criminal enterprise. It is simply too difficult and too public. It also involves at least one banking entity.
The involvement of at least one banking entity is KEY to money laundering. Money laundering is moving illegal funds into the normal banking system. It’s literally the point of money laundering.
I agree with Vasanti that there are probably many explanations for the many crazy listings on eBay, and I appreciate the many good thoughts expressed in this thread. Let us all continue to learn.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@Vasanti said:
The involvement of at least one banking entity is KEY to money laundering. Money laundering is moving illegal funds into the normal banking system. It’s literally the point of money laundering.
Yes and no.. You can launder money without directly involving a banking entity. Most such laundering efforts put distance between the illicit transactions and any banking authority. They don't directly deposit illicit cash in a bank. For example, you buy gold (or something similar) with illicit cash then sell that gold to someone else. That creates a paper trail from the second sale.
The classic way of laundering money was to mix it with legitimate proceeds from a cash business. It is not laundering money if you deposit your drug money in your checking account which is what you are suggesting they are doing on ebay. You have a direct deposit of the illicit funds into a bank.
But, again, these days you can do all the laundering through crypto exchanges which could totally remove the banking system.
Directly depositing illicit funds into a bank is a rather risky way to try to launder anything.
Whether money laundering demons or linguini throwing idiots, we did not determine why there are numerous usernames with the same alphanumeric pattern posting the same crap.
@Fraz said:
Whether money laundering demons or linguini throwing idiots, we did not determine why there are numerous usernames with the same alphanumeric pattern posting the same crap.
@Fraz said:
Whether money laundering demons or linguini throwing idiots, we did not determine why there are numerous usernames with the same alphanumeric pattern posting the same crap.
The Vice article shared by @Vasanti showed this is a common issue among various collectible niches. Still, the writer and ourselves aren't entirely sure what's going on.
Comments
Nobody sells 1% of what they list. And most of the accounts you're taking about only have 1 or 2 listings. It would hardly be suspicious if 1 or 2 items sold.
And if you wanted to avoid suspicion, you would list items that actually appear real. Or haven't you noticed that everyone is suspicious already.
We’re suspicious because we know coins. This is a vast sea of fake accounts and fake listings. A launderer, tax avoider or international money mover may have 100s of accounts run by bots. Intermixed in those are people who see what the launderers are doing and they also put up stupid listings because they don’t get it and they think someone is going to buy pocket change for real money, and they are emulating it. On top of that, the world is filled with stupid people, some of whom are going to “bite” on a listing or are going to list something they think is special even though it isn’t. You’re looking at a huge conglomeration of sophisticated money movers, scammers, idiots, copycats and morons and you’re trying to identify a single causation for it. The single causation is that eBay doesn’t care.
Ebay does care. It's not as simple a problem as you make it out to be because if the conglomeration you refer to.
I'm not looking for a single cause. All the people calling it money laundering are looking for a single cause.
Doesn't matter. What @jmlanzaf is saying is that if this was really money laundering, or a vehicle to charge stolen credit cards, any item at all could be listed, at any price, since the transactions are all internal and NOTHING would actually being bought, sold or shipped.
You could list really expensive jewelry, electronics, etc. at somewhat inflated prices, rather than listing garbage at obnoxiously inflated prices. These are stupid fishing expeditions, not sophisticated international criminal rings laundering money $600 or $1,500 at a time.
Following along here. I’m taking in the interesting points of view. Seems that maybe this is happening but then again some folks have pointed out that it’s not a good way to launder money.
That said, here’s my take away.
As a regular eBay customer ( like 3-6 times a week, maybe more) I find that this information, while fascinating isn’t of much use for me. I will continue to enjoy the fantastic number of great purchases and will remember the things said.
And with that, my torch I carry with respect to eBay is simply
Caveat Emptor. Thanks 🙏
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
Yeah... I have to agree with @Jzyskowski1 ... I dont use ebay as much as I used to but there are a few sellers that I follow on that platform and occasionally, I find something nice. Caveat emptor when bidding and definitely look at the return policy!
As for the depth of bogus offerings... it could be due to any number of reasons, many of which have been presented in this thread. Cheats and scams are all over and not just limited to ebay. I'm sure ebay does what they can to limit them... I as well as others on this forum have successfully gotten fraudulent items removed... but it's a neverending game of whack-a-mole and how much resources can ebay be expected to commit in order to police the platform?
That said, I'll continue to use my search terms to filter out as many of the bogus auctions as I can and "carry on"...
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
Why then are the accounts bidding on these items also bots?
That's what got me to thinking that at least some of the sellers/buyers are just smoke-and-mirrors to demonstrate some form of income to put down on a loan application... especially if there's a 1099.
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
If we assume that there is indeed some vast money laundering scheme involving multiple bots, which I consider to be very plausible, could the scheme not also include some “sales” that are apparent losses to offset the apparent gains so that nobody has to pay income taxes on the apparent income?
What you are describing happens all the time. There are a ton of federal cases that involve the use of eBay, Etsy and other amateur seller markets to launder money, sell drugs, send money to terrorists, traffic in people, avoid taxes, create fake tax losses, avoid sanctions, move money across borders for illicit activity and a host of other things. It is certainly not limited to coins or other collectibles.
It's not just laundering. Its moving money internationally to avoid scrutiny and sanctions, its moving money internationally to avoid fees, its tax avoidance, its creating false tax losses, its the purchase of illegal and illicit items under false pretenses, and on and on and on. Mixed into that are dumb people, scammers, dirtbags and the hopeful.
I just avoid eBay!
Much easier ways to move money internationally with no fees.
I'm sure there are. There are also a pile of federal cases where people were using eBay. I'm kind of at a loss as to why you are arguing about this. It's objectively true that it happens.
https://occrp.org/en/daily/6847-isis-laundered-money-into-us-using-ebay-investigators
https://reuters.com/article/us-crime-usa-strategy/mobsters-without-borders-are-global-threat-u-s-idUSWAT00939120080423
https://justice.gov/opa/pr/fifteen-defendants-plead-guilty-racketeering-conspiracy-international-cyber-fraud-scheme
It happens. However I really don't think the majority of the listings posted are for international money laundering.
Do you have a reference for the "piles" of Federal cases where ebay was used for money laundering?
Here's a good Vice story on the exact thing people are talking about here, but this one involves Beanie Babies.
https://vice.com/en/article/epnwmn/investigating-the-fake-ebay-market-for-dollar25000-beanie-babies
Another strong possibility is people creating businesses as tax avoidance/tax evasion schemes. It works by having a business that is chronically unsuccessful so that it takes a net loss every year. The unsuccessful auctions are "proof" that the business is trying to be a business, but it is not really trying to be a business. Essentially, you don't want to sell anything so that you can take the loss on your taxes, which is illegal.
This article is spot on. Exactly what we have going on in the US Coins category. _Legitimate Beanie Baby collectors have a theory. “Its’ either money laundering or bogus transactions”
The part about 'vigilant buyers' is especially germane; when we do see sales that appear legitimate, these could be vigilante eBay users who bid - with no intention to pay - as a way of punishing the seller for unsavory behavior.
Another eBay search that will illustrate the point of this article and our thread is: Rare 1776-1976 Bicentennial Quarter
This one seems to be a favorite of the scam network as there hundreds of current listings with these exact words from 0 feedback sellers at any given time. Many of these have sold at ridiculously high levels. Digging into the bid history, we see all high bidders are no longer registered:
Cool. But that’s not money laundering. It’s creative tax shuffling. It’s a gamble but there’s zillions of folks looking to find tax loopholes. Doesn’t make em international money laundering gangsters.
Thanks 🙏
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
Only one of those links involves fake ebay transactions. The other 2 fall under what I would call easier, less visible ways to launder money. Even the one ebay case mentioned (involving 1 person) involved less suspicious "printers" and multiple transactions to a single account not $500 pocket change and no more than one transaction per account.
I think those references support what I've been saying. There may be some money laundering (gift cards?) but the majority (all?) of those coin listings are not that.
Now, it is true that hackers will flood your email to make it hard to find the fraudulent purchase amid all the spam. However, there is no need to do that on ebay where the fraudulent transaction is "hidden" by the millions of legitimate transactions. In fact, a bunch of fake accounts and fake listings only calls more attention to you.
If I wanted to launder money, I would do a direct BTC transaction. It is less visible and less costly than a public ebay transaction with 12 to 15% in transaction fees. The fraudulent ebay sale makes more sense for stolen gift cards than international cartels. And even then there is little point in using a bot to create dozens (hundreds) of transactions, 99% of the listings resulting in no sales.
If you have a lot of stolen credit cards, you would create multiple buying accounts and a few selling accounts. Ideally, you sell a digital asset like an ebook and you let your fake accounts buy as many as they can or want until someone catches on. It is incredibly difficult and useless to create numerous selling accounts because each has to be linked to a bank account in order to receive the payments.
That does prove, by the way, that ebay cares. The "not a registered user" is probably because ebay booted them.
https://fox59.com/news/indycrime/carmel-man-indicted-in-alleged-2-million-ebay-paypal-fraud-scheme/
https://golfdigest.com/story/are-people-laundering-money-through-a-dollar758000-jose-uribe-baseball-card
As I keep saying, none of this is one thing. It’s a combination of things. There are multiple reasons why a person would artificially inflate the price of an eBay auction to absurd levels, including trying to separate an uneducated person from their money. Once again, the explanations include money laundering, fraud, tax evasion, tax avoidance, stupidity, irrational hope, circumventing non-US money transfer laws and regulations, purchasing things like drugs under false pretenses and many other reasons. Anyway, I really don’t care if you don’t believe it. I find arguing with strangers on the internet to be pedantic.
It's likely that it was caught by eBay's AML (anti-money laundering) team.
I think my biggest problem these days are all of the horrible, hideous artificially toned coins that are now everywhere you look.
I also dislike obvious scams with images and listing techniques.
Why didn't eBay boot the seller or remove the listing?
This was an interesting article that focuses more on Beanie Babies but there does seem to be some commonality...
https://www.vice.com/en/article/epnwmn/investigating-the-fake-ebay-market-for-dollar25000-beanie-babies
Identity theft is another possibility...
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.
Conversely, there are hidden deals. Look for sellers with much good feedback, whose pages of any combination of merchandise include only one numismatic item. Look at how much they sell in their sold transactions; look for signs of shenanigans, like the same item having been sold and is in a current auction too. They only sell coins when they get them with all of the other junk that they only sell when they get that too.
Not all of the recta-75 (0) “coin dealers” ask exorbitant prices and they miss stuff on the side of the coin about which YouTube did not learn them.
A few sellers that I have watched are getting savvy and sell good modern coins for a dollar plus eighty-four cents for shipping.
You gotta lay your eyes on a lot of crap, then you have to read it. It’s a textual treasure house.
It reminds me of picking scrapyards, recycling centers, and basement clean outs.
FWIW, your Vice story describes people creating fake bids in an effort to lure other people in. The inflated sales are later canceled. There is ultimately no reported transaction. This is not international money laundering, or anything resembling it. It is fishing for suckers. Nothing more, nothing less.
It says that’s one explanation for some sales, but it doesn’t say that’s the only explanation or the only fact pattern. This is what I mean about pedantic internet arguments.
I don't know what to tell you, pedantic or otherwise. If the transaction is later canceled, it's by definition not money laundering, regardless of what an uneducated legitimate Beanie Baby collector might think, BECAUSE MONEY ISN'T MOVING!!!!
If all you want to do is launder money, you can list something worth $14,000 for $14,000, buy it from yourself, move the money, and never actually ship the item to yourself. Or, if you want, you can even ship it to create a shipping record. You don't need to involve pocket change or Beanie Babies. You also don't need to involve eBay and its prying eyes and AML surveillance, such as it is.
You’re looking at part of the article and ignoring the other part that deals with different fact patterns of transactions. I’m really not sure how many times I can say that there are multiple reasons to list these kinds of items. If you don’t want to believe that money laundering is one of them, I really don’t care.
You're right. But I did read the entire article, and did not see a single reference to a completed inflated sale. Did I miss it, or was the point of the article that the listings are scams designed to make dopes believe Beanies are selling for crazy prices, not money laundering schemes?
No, I don't want to believe it, because it makes no sense on its face. Even though, as you correctly point out, and as random "legitimate Beanie Baby collectors" speculate, anything is theoretically possible.
I went on the eBay forum. There are people in just about every category spinning theories about these listings. Many of them get to money laundering. However, I agree with you, that is unlikely for a major criminal enterprise. It is simply too difficult and too public. It also involves at least one banking entity.
The involvement of at least one banking entity is KEY to money laundering. Money laundering is moving illegal funds into the normal banking system. It’s literally the point of money laundering.
That fake Beanie Baby for $14,000 is to grease up the sales of the $1000 Beanies.
I agree with Vasanti that there are probably many explanations for the many crazy listings on eBay, and I appreciate the many good thoughts expressed in this thread. Let us all continue to learn.
Yes and no.. You can launder money without directly involving a banking entity. Most such laundering efforts put distance between the illicit transactions and any banking authority. They don't directly deposit illicit cash in a bank. For example, you buy gold (or something similar) with illicit cash then sell that gold to someone else. That creates a paper trail from the second sale.
The classic way of laundering money was to mix it with legitimate proceeds from a cash business. It is not laundering money if you deposit your drug money in your checking account which is what you are suggesting they are doing on ebay. You have a direct deposit of the illicit funds into a bank.
But, again, these days you can do all the laundering through crypto exchanges which could totally remove the banking system.
Directly depositing illicit funds into a bank is a rather risky way to try to launder anything.
That’s not what I’m suggesting and it’s clear you aren’t reading what I’m writing, but it doesn’t matter. Have a pleasant evening.
I've read everything you wrote and responded directly. Happy 4th.
Whether money laundering demons or linguini throwing idiots, we did not determine why there are numerous usernames with the same alphanumeric pattern posting the same crap.
Nope. I have never been able to figure it out.
The Vice article shared by @Vasanti showed this is a common issue among various collectible niches. Still, the writer and ourselves aren't entirely sure what's going on.