@Harnessracing said:
Erik
If they were in negotiations to sell the company no one knew except the principals of both firms and the bankers involved . Acquisitions are never in the news for non publicly traded companies.
I spent 44 years with the same multibillion dollar firm that was family owned for 98 years and was blindsided with the sale of the company 14 months ago. I was in a senior executive position and had no clue. The 2 brothers and the President, Board members and CFO were the only ones who knew.
Employees and Customers are always the last to know. I retired Jan 6 of this year and can’t complain too much as my P Shares of company stock netted me $1.50 on the $1.00
Someone must have been leaking rumors then to Sports Card Radio because they've been hinting that a sale maybe coming for weeks now. PWCC did let go of quite a few people roughly about a month ago and it could have easily been any one of them putting the word out on what was happening.
@SlipKid said:
They've been busy - they also have the new NHL sweater contract. Hopefully they'll be better made then the stuff they're currently putting out.
Not for another 3 years or so, according to their press release. In the meantime, they'll be the exact sweater just with the Fanatics logo.
September 2024 right? Season after next. They'll probably start selling them next summer too.
I don't want to post the story here, but go look on the NY Post site and Panini. Something seems fishy......like someone is squeezing someone else......just an opinion.
@ndleo said:
I don't want to post the story here, but go look on the NY Post site and Panini. Something seems fishy......like someone is squeezing someone else......just an opinion.
I'm not up to date on these things so my apologies in advance; but why are you mentioning the Panini Group Situation as if is has any relation to the sale of PWCC to Fanatics?
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
#LetsGoSwitzerlandThe Man Who Does Not Read Has No Advantage Over the Man Who Cannot Read. The biggest obstacle to progress is a habit of “buying what we want and begging for what we need.”You get the Freedom you fight for and get the Oppression you deserve.
@Mickey71 said:
So FANATICS bought the PWCC auction business and building...."VAULT" ?? Some are suggesting they got all of these cards. What cards?? PWCC doesn't own the cards that people store in the vault??? Also, people keep mentioning EBAY. PWCC is not on EBAY anymore. Maybe there's way more that I don't know. And they probably will not be far from the hobby.
They own TONS of the cards in the vault.
A while ago, Brent started offering loans to vault customers with the cards as collateral. So... at the height of Covid craziness, many many big loans were made with cards that had artificially increased in value as collateral. many/most of those loans went into default and the owners just let PWCC keep the cards in lieu of paying off their loans. PWCC was left with tons of cards that have depreciated greatly in value and were then cash-strapped.
IIRC awhile back, I think it was Sports Card Radio who kept talking about how a teenager was able to somehow get a 72K loan from PWCC to buy a low numbered Ja Morant graded rookie.
SCR posted another video last night mentioning this kid again with the huge loan. Turns out the kid was 15yrs old who,likely with the help from his dad, took out an 80K loan in order to purchase a Ja Morant/Zion Williamson Logoman. Pretty crazy.
I don’t know which was worse, seeing a kid that young being handed that much money in a card loan. or using it on a Ja-Zion card.
@Mickey71 said:
So FANATICS bought the PWCC auction business and building...."VAULT" ?? Some are suggesting they got all of these cards. What cards?? PWCC doesn't own the cards that people store in the vault??? Also, people keep mentioning EBAY. PWCC is not on EBAY anymore. Maybe there's way more that I don't know. And they probably will not be far from the hobby.
They own TONS of the cards in the vault.
A while ago, Brent started offering loans to vault customers with the cards as collateral. So... at the height of Covid craziness, many many big loans were made with cards that had artificially increased in value as collateral. many/most of those loans went into default and the owners just let PWCC keep the cards in lieu of paying off their loans. PWCC was left with tons of cards that have depreciated greatly in value and were then cash-strapped.
IIRC awhile back, I think it was Sports Card Radio who kept talking about how a teenager was able to somehow get a 72K loan from PWCC to buy a low numbered Ja Morant graded rookie.
SCR posted another video last night mentioning this kid again with the huge loan. Turns out the kid was 15yrs old who,likely with the help from his dad, took out an 80K loan in order to purchase a Ja Morant/Zion Williamson Logoman. Pretty crazy.
I don’t know which was worse, seeing a kid that young being handed that much money in a card loan. or using it on a Ja-Zion card.
@Mickey71 said:
So FANATICS bought the PWCC auction business and building...."VAULT" ?? Some are suggesting they got all of these cards. What cards?? PWCC doesn't own the cards that people store in the vault??? Also, people keep mentioning EBAY. PWCC is not on EBAY anymore. Maybe there's way more that I don't know. And they probably will not be far from the hobby.
They own TONS of the cards in the vault.
A while ago, Brent started offering loans to vault customers with the cards as collateral. So... at the height of Covid craziness, many many big loans were made with cards that had artificially increased in value as collateral. many/most of those loans went into default and the owners just let PWCC keep the cards in lieu of paying off their loans. PWCC was left with tons of cards that have depreciated greatly in value and were then cash-strapped.
IIRC awhile back, I think it was Sports Card Radio who kept talking about how a teenager was able to somehow get a 72K loan from PWCC to buy a low numbered Ja Morant graded rookie.
SCR posted another video last night mentioning this kid again with the huge loan. Turns out the kid was 15yrs old who,likely with the help from his dad, took out an 80K loan in order to purchase a Ja Morant/Zion Williamson Logoman. Pretty crazy.
I don’t know which was worse, seeing a kid that young being handed that much money in a card loan. or using it on a Ja-Zion card.
Who is verifying/approving their loans? Enron?
Maybe its the same guy who wasn't shilling bids for all those years? 😎
Given the gambling nature of new products and the monopolistic-ish amount of power that resides with Luber/Fanatics, it feels like it's only a matter of time before new products start being regulated in some way.
All it will take is one congressman's son dropping several k on boxes that yield diddly to get that ball rolling. Not saying it will happen immediately, but over the next 5-10 years that seems like a real possibility.
The gambling nature of modern boxes goes way back to the 1990s when the insert craze started. The only difference now is that you need a loan to buy boxes. I doubt that any regulations on boxes are coming, the odds are stated on the box and there are so many options for consumers.
However I do wonder what will happen when the Fanatics takeover of the hobby squeezes out other businesses. Currently there are many participants in the hobby value chain. If Fanatics consolidates the industry, does it start becoming a target of the FTC?
@demondeacs said:
Given the gambling nature of new products and the monopolistic-ish amount of power that resides with Luber/Fanatics, it feels like it's only a matter of time before new products start being regulated in some way.
All it will take is one congressman's son dropping several k on boxes that yield diddly to get that ball rolling. Not saying it will happen immediately, but over the next 5-10 years that seems like a real possibility.
At least with real gambling when you win you get your payout, with cards even if you do get lucky and pull THE Card more times than not it will be a spider-wrinkled PSA5
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Regarding the loans, while I’d like to bag on PWCC….. for some perspective banks have gone under the past few months. REITs with prime NY and Cali commercial RE are defaulting on billions in loans.
In this environment, not crazy for alt lenders to be in trouble (and spoiler, it will get worse). I wonder how close PWCC was to being insolvent and how many pennies on the dollar they got for the business.
@80sOPC said:
Regarding the loans, while I’d like to bag on PWCC….. for some perspective banks have gone under the past few months. REITs with prime NY and Cali commercial RE are defaulting on billions in loans.
In this environment, not crazy for alt lenders to be in trouble (and spoiler, it will get worse). I wonder how close PWCC was to being insolvent and how many pennies on the dollar they got for the business.
Hopefully not enough to have made crime pay
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
@80sOPC said:
Regarding the loans, while I’d like to bag on PWCC….. for some perspective banks have gone under the past few months. REITs with prime NY and Cali commercial RE are defaulting on billions in loans.
In this environment, not crazy for alt lenders to be in trouble (and spoiler, it will get worse). I wonder how close PWCC was to being insolvent and how many pennies on the dollar they got for the business.
According to Geoff Wilson, PWCC had a large debt payment due and was at risk of having to file for bankruptcy. He estimates that Fanatics paid around 10% of the peak PWCC value. Interestingly he says CU and Alt made bids as well.
@demondeacs said:
Given the gambling nature of new products and the monopolistic-ish amount of power that resides with Luber/Fanatics, it feels like it's only a matter of time before new products start being regulated in some way.
All it will take is one congressman's son dropping several k on boxes that yield diddly to get that ball rolling. Not saying it will happen immediately, but over the next 5-10 years that seems like a real possibility.
At least with real gambling when you win you get your payout, with cards even if you do get lucky and pull THE Card more times than not it will be a spider-wrinkled PSA5
How about when THE Card is a redemption? Some (un)lucky collector pulls it then submits within the required timeframe and after four years of waiting for the card to arrive, finds out that it got backdoored sold on ebay.
I have submitted the 2017-18 Panini immaculate basketball Lonzo Ball/Jayson Tatum Rc Dual Logoman autograph within the redemption expiration date, but what the ridiculous thing is, my friend told me the card was sold on eBay on 23th, May, 2023, This is a 1/1 masterpiece card, and panini hasn’t even respond to any of my messages or emails, always let me to wait another 120 days again and again. Four years since submission, now sell on eBay?
This is totally a scam by the official trading card company, this is a Series Hit, come on, redemption is ok, but how dare the card could be sold on eBay?
Hopefully Fanatics sees this stuff happening and learns from other card companies mistakes.
I bought 2 2022 Donruss FB Hobby Boxes from 2 different online vendors (4 total). 2 of the boxes were short the auto. I emailed panini and never heard back. I’m done buying Panini FB for now, they are currently a mess.
I also have 3 redemptions from 2019 in limbo. One is Kyler Murray Auto RC /25. I don’t expect to receive it
That sounds right. I bet they were a 50,000,000 company at Covid peak that sold for 5,000,000. Entirely possible that Brent walks with not a whole lot if he was personally leveraged up.
@80sOPC said:
Regarding the loans, while I’d like to bag on PWCC….. for some perspective banks have gone under the past few months. REITs with prime NY and Cali commercial RE are defaulting on billions in loans.
In this environment, not crazy for alt lenders to be in trouble (and spoiler, it will get worse). I wonder how close PWCC was to being insolvent and how many pennies on the dollar they got for the business.
According to Geoff Wilson, PWCC had a large debt payment due and was at risk of having to file for bankruptcy. He estimates that Fanatics paid around 10% of the peak PWCC value. Interestingly he says CU and Alt made bids as well.
The fact that police weren't automatically notified by motion sensing cameras makes me believe this was likely an inside job. Standard security at any company headquarters would be sufficient enough to prevent a burglary such as this when police are less than 20 minutes away. The valuable merchandise should be behind more than one layer of security. What are the odds that they produce no suspects?
Yikes...no more people paying money to rip redemption boxes. This will hurt breakers with Panini merchandise in the short term I imagine.
I suspect there will be other companies, vendors and sellers trying all sorts of things to recoup investments they've made the past few years that were way over-priced for where the market is now. It's probably going to be a tough few years for some.
Also, makes me nervous if Fanatics bought at the wrong time (for them) and will be pulling profits anyway, every way and without the highest regard for collectors.
After the reported break in at Panini they sent out an email to customers saying that their phone lines are down and they'll let everyone know when they're back up running again. Of course, this led to all kinds of jokes on social media, here's one:
🤣😂🤣
Comments
Someone must have been leaking rumors then to Sports Card Radio because they've been hinting that a sale maybe coming for weeks now. PWCC did let go of quite a few people roughly about a month ago and it could have easily been any one of them putting the word out on what was happening.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
I heard 2025
Brian
I don't want to post the story here, but go look on the NY Post site and Panini. Something seems fishy......like someone is squeezing someone else......just an opinion.
I heard 2025
Brian
I'm not up to date on these things so my apologies in advance; but why are you mentioning the Panini Group Situation as if is has any relation to the sale of PWCC to Fanatics?
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Fanatics reminds me of Tyco.
SCR posted another video last night mentioning this kid again with the huge loan. Turns out the kid was 15yrs old who,likely with the help from his dad, took out an 80K loan in order to purchase a Ja Morant/Zion Williamson Logoman. Pretty crazy.
I don’t know which was worse, seeing a kid that young being handed that much money in a card loan. or using it on a Ja-Zion card.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
Who is verifying/approving their loans? Enron?
Maybe its the same guy who wasn't shilling bids for all those years? 😎
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
Crazy on the loans. Did they loan any to themselves or friends before the crash?
Given the gambling nature of new products and the monopolistic-ish amount of power that resides with Luber/Fanatics, it feels like it's only a matter of time before new products start being regulated in some way.
All it will take is one congressman's son dropping several k on boxes that yield diddly to get that ball rolling. Not saying it will happen immediately, but over the next 5-10 years that seems like a real possibility.
The gambling nature of modern boxes goes way back to the 1990s when the insert craze started. The only difference now is that you need a loan to buy boxes. I doubt that any regulations on boxes are coming, the odds are stated on the box and there are so many options for consumers.
However I do wonder what will happen when the Fanatics takeover of the hobby squeezes out other businesses. Currently there are many participants in the hobby value chain. If Fanatics consolidates the industry, does it start becoming a target of the FTC?
At least with real gambling when you win you get your payout, with cards even if you do get lucky and pull THE Card more times than not it will be a spider-wrinkled PSA5
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
Regarding the loans, while I’d like to bag on PWCC….. for some perspective banks have gone under the past few months. REITs with prime NY and Cali commercial RE are defaulting on billions in loans.
In this environment, not crazy for alt lenders to be in trouble (and spoiler, it will get worse). I wonder how close PWCC was to being insolvent and how many pennies on the dollar they got for the business.
Hopefully not enough to have made crime pay
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
According to Geoff Wilson, PWCC had a large debt payment due and was at risk of having to file for bankruptcy. He estimates that Fanatics paid around 10% of the peak PWCC value. Interestingly he says CU and Alt made bids as well.
How about when THE Card is a redemption? Some (un)lucky collector pulls it then submits within the required timeframe and after four years of waiting for the card to arrive, finds out that it got backdoored sold on ebay.
I have submitted the 2017-18 Panini immaculate basketball Lonzo Ball/Jayson Tatum Rc Dual Logoman autograph within the redemption expiration date, but what the ridiculous thing is, my friend told me the card was sold on eBay on 23th, May, 2023,
This is a 1/1 masterpiece card, and panini hasn’t even respond to any of my messages or emails, always let me to wait another 120 days again and again. Four years since submission, now sell on eBay?
This is totally a scam by the official trading card company, this is a Series Hit, come on, redemption is ok, but how dare the card could be sold on eBay?
Hopefully Fanatics sees this stuff happening and learns from other card companies mistakes.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
I bought 2 2022 Donruss FB Hobby Boxes from 2 different online vendors (4 total). 2 of the boxes were short the auto. I emailed panini and never heard back. I’m done buying Panini FB for now, they are currently a mess.
I also have 3 redemptions from 2019 in limbo. One is Kyler Murray Auto RC /25. I don’t expect to receive it
Sure glad I've not collected new sports cards since the 1990's. Pandemic bubble not withstanding, on the average its nothing but a treadmill of hurt.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
The older, and lower POP; the better.
That sounds right. I bet they were a 50,000,000 company at Covid peak that sold for 5,000,000. Entirely possible that Brent walks with not a whole lot if he was personally leveraged up.
Karma’s a bitch.
^^^^^^^^^ I sure hope you are right. He is definitely one guy I am not rooting for
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I wonder how many collectors this latest news will effect. Maybe its time for Panini to just sell out to Fanatics themselves.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3hH66_jkr0
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
The fact that police weren't automatically notified by motion sensing cameras makes me believe this was likely an inside job. Standard security at any company headquarters would be sufficient enough to prevent a burglary such as this when police are less than 20 minutes away. The valuable merchandise should be behind more than one layer of security. What are the odds that they produce no suspects?
Yikes...no more people paying money to rip redemption boxes. This will hurt breakers with Panini merchandise in the short term I imagine.
I suspect there will be other companies, vendors and sellers trying all sorts of things to recoup investments they've made the past few years that were way over-priced for where the market is now. It's probably going to be a tough few years for some.
Also, makes me nervous if Fanatics bought at the wrong time (for them) and will be pulling profits anyway, every way and without the highest regard for collectors.
After the reported break in at Panini they sent out an email to customers saying that their phone lines are down and they'll let everyone know when they're back up running again. Of course, this led to all kinds of jokes on social media, here's one:
🤣😂🤣
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486