Fanatics buying PWCC
BPorter26
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BPorter26
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Any idea how much they bought it for?
They've been acting like they were building up things to be sold so I'm not surprised.
Do they still have the arrangement with the grading company (CGS maybe?)?
No clue but dang! "At the time, sources said, PWCC’s business on eBay was approaching $250 million a year."
That's a lot of $$$/yr. Sheesh! Novice that I am, never realized (or imagined) it would be so high! The purchase price must have been way north of that if that's their yearly sales.
From the article. It looks like Brent & Co got a bailout. I was waiting to see when Fanatics would start acquiring graded card inventory in bulk. This could be the buy sign we have all been waiting for. Is this a call for the bottom?
"The vault was based in Oregon, which is one of five states without statewide sales tax. While the vault concept may have been PWCC’s star for a short while, it may have also precipitated its downfall.
At the height of the card craze, vault members were allowed to take out loans against their vaulted cards, using those cards as collateral.
That helped light the card market on fire as some of those people then took their loan money to buy more.
But when the market plummeted, there were enough of those people who just said, “I’ll keep my money, you keep my cards.”
Sources say that while PWCC was left with some high-priced cards when collectors defaulted, there’s not exactly a glut that Fanatics will be left with.
There will be some, but no one in the market believes Fanatics will just auction them off as fast as they can, for fear of over-saturating the high-end market."
I think it hurts the hobby. A card company also now owns the selling platform. What keeps them from producing high end product for themselves to grade and sell? Not that I buy modern but I wouldn’t touch a Fanatics produced product with a 10 ft pole
Lots of interesting ways that could go for sure. It also makes me wonder what sort of pressure it puts on other Grading and Vaulting companies.
I'm with you. Glad I'm not a modern collector/buyer.
I am more bullish on Fanatics getting involved. Especially when it comes to marketing the blue chip cards in the hobby.
However I am concerned that Fanatics will suck all of the profit out of the hobby and leave no room for some of us to scrape out a few bucks. I like the competition in the marketplace, I hope Fanatics sees the value of a wide hobby base.
A company looking to gain credibility in the hobby just bought the shadiest outfit currently in the hobby. Not a good look.
Yaz Master Set
#1 Gino Cappelletti master set
#1 John Hannah master set
Also collecting Andre Tippett, Patriots Greats' RCs, Dwight Evans, 1964 Venezuelan Topps, 1974 Topps Red Sox
Not surprising, when the tide goes out and all that. I bet Fanatics got them for a song,
And regarding the 250MM below, to that poster, keep in mind that is gross eBay sales. PWCC revenue would be around 13% of that number, they are likely a 30-40MM company. And one that was likely leveraged up. I'd bet the balance sheet was a mess. Hence the sale into a declining market.
That sounds very plausible. About a year ago they started calling, emailing and texting basically begging for me to use their services. It felt more than just normal salesmanship.
They made a pretty large investment in that vault, and I think the move off eBay probably hurt sales quite a bit. Then the market falls out, and their debt servicing goes way up. Recipe for a relatively young business to fail.
I said on these boards a week or so ago that I wouldn't hold cards in a vault service unless I had audit rights (which of course is a ridiculous ask). When a company fails, it happens fast!
80s
I think it’s much less than 13%. Operating costs, salaries, benefits , T&I, if they net 3% they are doing well
I agree net is much less then 13%, that was my swag on their top line / gross rev relative to eBay sales. I suspect like most young companies / startups in growth and investment mode, they weren't incredibly profitable.
I always thought the vault was a terrible idea...not surprised PWCC flopped. I want to physically handle my collectibles...and store the cards in a bank vault in my hometown.
I’ll tell you what, 1 in 10 of my sales gets sent to the buyers vault account at PWCC. I was really surprised
I would never want to vault my cards and feel the same as you. I do see a lot of these other vaults seem to be doing pretty good based on the number of orders I have to ship to them. I think the big allure for most is the sales tax avoidance
I, for one, am glad that Brent no longer owns PWCC. Hopefully, Fanatics can clean out that house and I will be able to use them as another avenue to acquire cards.
I haven't used PWCC for many years (before the recent unpleasantries) and I figured something was afoot when I started getting cold calls to bid/use their services.
I hope he stays out of the hobby
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
So FANATICS bought the PWCC auction business and building...."VAULT" ?? Some are suggesting they got all of these cards. What cards?? PWCC doesn't own the cards that people store in the vault??? Also, people keep mentioning EBAY. PWCC is not on EBAY anymore. Maybe there's way more that I don't know. And they probably will not be far from the hobby.
I have one card in a vault - only because shipping it there saved me the sales tax, and after 90 days (up in about 3 weeks) I can have it shipped back to me for $1.
They own TONS of the cards in the vault.
A while ago, Brent started offering loans to vault customers with the cards as collateral. So... at the height of Covid craziness, many many big loans were made with cards that had artificially increased in value as collateral. many/most of those loans went into default and the owners just let PWCC keep the cards in lieu of paying off their loans. PWCC was left with tons of cards that have depreciated greatly in value and were then cash-strapped.
The fanatics' buyout was really a way for Brent to exit without losing everything. I am sure PWCC would have gone belly up in less than a year without the buyout.
Hopefully Fanatics will have a controlled sell-off of the "assets" in the vault rather than flooding the market with a fire sale, further depressing the hobby.
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
I totally disagree with your statement; I think the vault was an excellent idea and why do you think eBay and PSA followed suit with that type of service? It's also nice if forbid anything happens to me, my wife has that platform to sell from. PWCC platform is fantastic, the problem I have with PWCC is the owner. I used the vault, but I recently pulled every single card I had in the vault because of what transpired the last few weeks at PWCC. I just don't trust Huggins. He's staying on at some capacity for the time being. I need to decide if I want to join another vault or wait to see what happens with PWCC / Fanatics.
I may use the PWCC Vault now that Fanatics is in charge. PWCC was always the best venue for me to sell mid-high end graded cards. I have a bunch of PSA 9 and PSA 10 1970's-1980's rookies that I want to sell and the PWCC Vault with Fanatics marketing would be a winner for me.
IIRC awhile back, I think it was Sports Card Radio who kept talking about how a teenager was able to somehow get a 72K loan from PWCC to buy a low numbered Ja Morant graded rookie.
I don't know if that story was true or if those are the exact details but I've heard it mentioned numerous times over the past year. You could easily see scenarios like that where people had cards sitting in the vault,took out an expensive loan to buy the next "great" card that hits the market then later on when prices started to drop significantly those same people told PWCC to just keep their cards.
I'd say a huge portion of those same cards still sitting in the vault will probably never reach the same level of high values that we saw during the Bubble when Brent was giving out loans on them.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
What transpired the past few weeks? Don’t get me wrong, I think Brent is a weasel, just wondering what I missed.
Yaz Master Set
#1 Gino Cappelletti master set
#1 John Hannah master set
Also collecting Andre Tippett, Patriots Greats' RCs, Dwight Evans, 1964 Venezuelan Topps, 1974 Topps Red Sox
Dan - they layed off 20% of their staff and rumours were going around that they were close to being insolvent. FWIW I'm not claiming those rumours, but that is what transpired.
I do think the sale is clear indication the business was at risk. Time to cash out was 15 months ago, timing couldn't be worse which is a big tell on their financial position.
First they let go of about 1/3rd of their employees which led to the remaining staff running things (like shipping/entering items into the system/paying out payments or even just returning phone calls) much slower than it had previously been.
Then came rumors of selling the company without telling customers who had high priced items sitting in the vault or waiting to be auctioned off.
There's also been rumors of a divorce in the works between Brent & his wife but that's obviously separate from everything else going on if true their personal business alone. I may have missed something but thats pretty much the gist of it.
Eric
Erikthredd’s MJ Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/publishedset/395035
Erikthredd’s Nike Air Jordan Collection: https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/basketball/key-card-sets/nike-poster-cards-michael-jordan-1985-1992/alltimeset/408486
Thanks Erik.
Yaz Master Set
#1 Gino Cappelletti master set
#1 John Hannah master set
Also collecting Andre Tippett, Patriots Greats' RCs, Dwight Evans, 1964 Venezuelan Topps, 1974 Topps Red Sox
I wonder if Fanatics will buy this?
Interesting, thank you! I would have thought it was much less. To me it really shows everyone likes things differently: some like to store at a vendors vault, some at home, and some at the bank, which I quickly learned was a pita.
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
Hopefully PWCC ownership are not employees of Fanatics after the deal. Will see how Fanatics runs it. Might look at what they have for sale if I hear that Brett is out.
Where do I sign up for vault services? because I want to feel so secure knowing that my most valuable cards are sitting in the middle of a company takeover, mass employee layoff, auctions without my knowledge, and dishonest owner going through a divorce.
You'd probably be able to get away with it, but I'd be surprised if a 90 day vacation in Oregon was enough to keep you from owing sales/use tax.
I'm in the process of moving (very slowly) to Connecticut and filed a nonresident return this year. There were four different rates of use tax to file under, along with a helpful note that anything bought to use in Connecticut is subject to one of those taxes. Sales tax paid to another state reduces the liability. So if you were to buy a $100 item on vacation in a state with 6% sales tax and bring it home, and the rate in Connecticut would have been 8%, you owe $2 use tax.
I know state law varies, but I'd be surprised that it would vary so much that waiting three months to take delivery changes the amount owed.
It is my understanding that you still pay taxes once you make a vault withdrawal, or at least legally you are supposed to do it.
The key selling point of the vault system is tax avoidance and the key to that system is to never take possession and therefore never pay the tax and then ultimately sell it directly from vault, thereby avoiding the tax entirely.
Curious about the rare, mysterious and beautiful 1951 Wheaties Premium Photos?
https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/987963/1951-wheaties-premium-photos-set-registry#latest
imagine having 6 or 7 figures worth of "assets" in a vault controlled by Brent Huigens. What could ever go wrong? I mean, they are salt-of-the-earth type of people. right?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Seems like all those fearmongering, doom and gloom PWCC vault people here were wrong.
If Fanatics bought PWCC then the vault service is now basically the Fanatics vault service, like the Goldin vault service is now part of PSA. Are folks going to start going on and on about how risky the Fanatics vault is? How about the PSA/Goldin vault? The eBay vault? Understandably, a vault service is not for everyone but it does fulfill a legit need for some of us.
Robb
it seems that most people use the PWCC vault to keep from paying sales tax on their cards. What are the advantages of using the eBay or Goldin vaults? What are the fees to use them?
Fanatics has a Credit Rating of BB- (defined as Non Investment Grade Speculative). They are at the lowest of 3 credit ratings in this area. This rating was as if April 2023. They are rated by Standard and Poors because they have a $500MM debt offering that was issued 11/9 2021.
With PSA being private and without a public bond offering, there are no debt ratings for them.
Without access to financials - no idea how safe the companies behind the vaults are.
However I would say that cards in the vault are much safer than when owned by Brett.
As someone who owns a company in the sports equipment industry, I can tell you that the Fanatics reputation in the industry is less than stellar. A lot of backdoor dealings and crooked execs have helped their rapid growth with the . As much marketshare as they've captured in the last 6-8 years, I wouldn't be surprised to see them gone in the next 5 years.
Brian
Not sure how Fanatics bailing out PWCC invalidates folks having concerns with the Vault. By all accounts PWCC was failing, if they hadn’t found a buyer, can you guess what potentially could have happened next?
This IS a good move for folks using the Vault, my concerns would be lessened significantly. But with respect, the doomer scenario almost played out with respect to the PWCC vault.
A well ran large company will acquire/merge with something which helps them in either a strategic move or financial movie, or combo.
Often times the bigger company has a great process improvement or other strategy to reduce cost. Usually businesses will strip out common departments like payroll, hr, etc. unless the company you acquired is doing well and you don't want to disrupt it.
A company either sells because the money/opportunities were too good to pass up or your company is doing so poorly that you need rescued before going under.
PWCC purchase was likely something Fanatics believes will help them somehow.
The reality could be that Fanatics isn't doing well but they pitched a highdea to the investors, who may no little about the industry compared to people on this board, and sold them on an idea which might actually be a stalling technique to buy time for Fanatics execs to cash out and run for the hills. If things become insolvent then becareful leaving items in the vault because, like a bank, the assets can/will be acquired if they begin to go under.
Personally I don't know whether this is a sinking ship, or a heck of a deal, but it's unfortunate more jobs related to our hobby cannot be supported.
When the economy suffers then hobbies and services affecting the lower and middle classes are usually most at risk.
During this time, the new faces on top either become the hero or the fall guy. It's a lot of pressure and the moral/rapport within the company is what can make or break the situation when it is being stress tested.
For all of the PWCC speculation, the only collectors that actually lost assets recently are the ones that used group submitters and third rate grading companies.
While I stopped using them after they got booted from ebay, all my dealings with PWCC were positive for me on both the buy and sell side. My cards always sold well and I never thought I was shilled on any of my bids. Some of my best buys came from PWCC.
While I'm glad Brent is no longer in charge of PWCC, I do want PWCC as a company to make a comeback.
Birds of a feather situation?
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
the ol' skedaddle.
It's the singer not the song - Peter Townshend (1972)
I also had good experiences with PWCC. I hope the employees that helped with my good experiences do well at Fanatics!
Successful card BST transactions with cbcnow, brogurt, gstarling, Bravesfan 007, and rajah 424.
They've been busy - they also have the new NHL sweater contract. Hopefully they'll be better made then the stuff they're currently putting out.
Not for another 3 years or so, according to their press release. In the meantime, they'll be the exact sweater just with the Fanatics logo.
Brian
September 2024 right? Season after next. They'll probably start selling them next summer too.
I understand some folks don’t think this is a great idea. But personally I can’t wait to bundle the shipping costs of a repossesed 71 Blyleven PSA 9 with my vintage Hartford Whaler slide sandles.
Erik
If they were in negotiations to sell the company no one knew except the principals of both firms and the bankers involved . Acquisitions are never in the news for non publicly traded companies.
I spent 44 years with the same multibillion dollar firm that was family owned for 98 years and was blindsided with the sale of the company 14 months ago. I was in a senior executive position and had no clue. The 2 brothers and the President, Board members and CFO were the only ones who knew.
Employees and Customers are always the last to know. I retired Jan 6 of this year and can’t complain too much as my P Shares of company stock netted me $1.50 on the $1.00
Jolleywrencher hit the nail DIRECTLY on the the head. There will be a couple that “cash out” you can count on it