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Some 1930-58 Lincoln's graded in 2002-2004 era MS67RD (Wheats) - before plus that are CAC
Clackamas1
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~~I have a couple of dozen Lincoln wheats graded MS67RD in the 2002-2004 time frame that were CAC stickered early on in CAC. This was before the + designation from PCGS. I am thinking of selling them and wondering would it behove me to get them regraded and then re-CAC? Some of these were the top notch coins before plus and when PCGS would not give out an MS68RD Lincoln. Some of my coins I sold and were later upgraded, I always kept the best. Does it pencil out? I don't need the money I just am no longer interested and want to just not burden my heirs. Thoughts?
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Unlike many collectors, my mentality is to maximize value, whether at the time of sale like you’re considering, or for me, doing that now so when the coins eventually get sold, whether by me or my heirs, chances will be greater that fair value will be received.
In my opinion your first move to get the CAC sticker on the coins that merited them was a smart move! I like the way you think, now that you’re getting ready to sell. Yes, I agree action should be taken to maximize value before the sale.
Since you sound spot on regarding the potential for upgrades due to the time these coins were graded combined with no plus grades available at that time, I suggest you proceed in one of two ways:
Regardless, good luck, and please let us know how you make out!
Steve
P.S. I suggest you rephrase your subject line to clarify “Graded in 2002-2004 era…” so readers won’t think you’re talking about Lincoln’s in those dates, as you don’t say Wheat cents until they read your post. Matter of fact, also add “Wheat” in your subject line as well!
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
If you send the coins in for regrade, all of them would have to go back to cac to try and sticker again. Not the smartest way to submit (imo) because you run the risk of keeping the same grade and losing the sticker on every coin.
I’d submit with the reconsideration service.
Doing it as a show submission in New Orleans next week would also be smart.
I like the suggestion from @1madman to try a walk through at the show. Might get some opinions from the TPG prior to actual submission and save some fees... Cheers, RickO
Excellent advice from @winesteven —personally, I’d go the Reconsideration route for reasons already mentioned.
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
In general, I don't care about old holders and prefer the newer holders with Trueview....however, with RD copper, it may make more sense to keep in the old holder to show color stability. I don't know the price difference between 68 and 68+ though. Maybe sell as is to a dealer who is willing to play the crackout game themselves and pay you a premium?
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It is difficult to say if "it pencils out" without knowing the dates/mm of the coins in question. I'm assuming that you are talking about post 1982 coins, and if that is the case then it may not be worth all the costs as for some dates the difference is not that much from 67 to + or even 68.
As these are coins you made from your time searching bags or rolls you have minimal cost in each coin (not including your time) and you say that it's not about the money and you're not interested in the coins any longer. In that case why bother with putting more time and effort into the coins, post them up on the BST and let the quality speak for itself. There is nothing wrong with letting another fellow collector have a nice coin at a slight discount to the next grade up if you are not hurting for the cash, not everything has to be maxed out.
Also many copper collectors, I am one, would prefer the older holder and the promise of stability that provides over the +.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
Please provide the names of the dealers who pay ms68+ money for ms68 graded coins. I’ve been searching for those people the last few decades.
No, I am talking about 30's-50's wheat cents. I worded it poorly. CAC does not even do memorial cents. Say like a 1942-S in MS67RD that is CAC. It is a valuable coin.
You are right that very few (or none) would be willing to pay 68+ money for a 68 graded coin BUT if you have a dealer willing to crack out and with great faith in their grading (Witter and CRO come to mind although I'm sure there are others) they may be willing to pay 68.25 money for a 68 thinking they will make a 68.5.
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CAC does do a few memorial cents like the DDO's, however, I'll just reiterate and say that if the money is not important to you then why bother spending the money and time. Let them go and move on, and a 42-S is not that expensive in 67rd the CAC price guide shows $187 and CAC has not approved any 68's for that date. In fact there are only a few of the uber common 30's dates that are CAC approved in MS68, so no guaranties that you would get any CAC'd if you got any upgraded to 68.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
As a first hand anecdote, I was bidding on a beautiful, super PQ coin recently; CAC retail guide was $26k. I bid up to $27k but hit my budget. CRO ended up buying at $32k and supposedly was willing to go significantly higher. They had it reconsidered successfully for a Gold CAC soon afterwards. I don't know why they wouldn't be willing to do that with other coins.
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CAC will review coins with green stickers as well as coins that failed if you send them in and ask for a review. But consider this, currently CAC has awarded only 53 gold beans between the three color designations out of 22,641 beans that have been awarded to the entire Lincoln series. Of those gold beans the most have been given to BN coins (28) and the highest graded to receive a gold are two MS66RD coins. The chances that JA would give a gold bean to any MS67 Lincoln is very slight.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
CAC price guides are so far off for that whole series. I’ve been meaning to talk to John F about that, it’s the only series I’ve found where the guides are in need of serious adjustment.
Type Collector of U.S. Pre-33 Gold https://instagram.com/deplorable_dan Successful transactions with- @drfish, @Cladiator, @johnny010, @Pedzola, @PerryHall, @2windy2fish, @Ike1964, @JohnThePainter, @rpmsrpms, @REALGATOR
I don't disagree with you but that's not really the point I was making. Would PCGS be willing to upgrade it to a 68+? Would some dealers be trusting enough of their own grading skill to pay above 68 money for the coin but below 68+ money for that coin if they thought the coin warranted an upgrade? I think the answer to that is yes.
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So far PCGS has graded four 68+ Lincolns, one in RB and three in RD out of over 400,000 graded. Is it impossible that one of the op's coins might upgrade to 68+, no, however the odds of that happening are infinitesimally small.
Maybe, but given the numbers above I think it is also extremely unlikely that any dealer would be interested in taking that risk.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I think we are generally in agreement but your nit picking has you still missing a portion of the point. I didn't intend it to be specifically 68 to 68+. So substitute upgrade from 67 to 68 or 2nd pop to top pop.
So once again, the whole point is, given a coin graded MSxx, would a dealer pay a premium (but not MSxx+ full price) for that coin if the dealer felt the coin would upgrade to MSxx+? The answer is yes.
Is that more clear?
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I am not nitpicking simply answering the question you posed, "is it possible for PCGS to upgrade a Lincoln cent to 68+" the answer is it is possible but the odds are way less than one percent. The rest of your question is far too broad in scope to be of any use or value as we are discussing Lincoln cents not the entire universe of every coin ever minted.
Yes, out of the billions of coins that have been minted since the inception of the US mint yes it is possible that a dealer might be willing to take the risk on a specific coin and pay between 68 and 68+ prices. But again this discussion is about a select group of coins, namely Lincoln cents, and in that context my reply is the same, no. I do not believe that any dealer would be willing to pay between 68 and 68+ money on that gamble. That would be like going all in when you can only win with one card and there is only that one card in ten thousand decks, it is a losing bet almost every time.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
There's the issue...I didn't mention Lincoln cents. And the OP's coins are 67s, not 68s. I just said coins. I didn't mention the coin but my personal anecdote was regarding a gold coin graded AU50.
So once again, again, just talking about the general idea of a dealer paying a premium for a PQ coin that the dealer thinks can upgrade. Which seems like a potential good fit for the OP (if he can find the right dealer) because he would be able to get better than market prices without the hassle of reholdering and restickering or sending to auction.
And OP is known for having some pretty spectacular coins and a good eye for grading so I don't doubt him when he says they are upgrade candidates.
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But that is the fail in your logic, this discussion is not about every coin ever minted, it is about a specific group of coins and the odds of what you are suggesting for this group of coins is extraordinary low. And as such I see almost a zero chance that any dealer is going to be willing to pay over one whole grade market value for each of the op's coins, it would be a foolish gamble and most successful dealers do not make foolish mistakes.
Your logic might be viable for a different series and especially so for lower grades like an AU50 where the pops for an AU53 or 55 is much higher and more achievable than at the top of the grading scale. But that is not what the discussion is about so your example is an apples to oranges comparison.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I never suggested or hinted or implied a dealer would pay over one whole grade market value. Where are you getting this? I said, several times, that perhaps a dealer would pay great than X but less than X+ if the dealer felt the coin had a good opportunity to upgrade to X+ (in my example, X=68). In this scenario, how does a dealer paying more than 68 money but less than 68+ money to a dealer paying paying 69 money?
And no, my logic is viable for every single coin series in every single grade except perhaps a 1/0 top pop. The series is irrelevant. I am basically saying that a very PQ coin will command more than normal market price. How in the world can you disagree with that?
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You are not making any sense and keep jumping around and changing your tune, here is exactly what you said:
"Would PCGS be willing to upgrade it to a 68+? Would some dealers be trusting enough of their own grading skill to pay above 68 money for the coin but below 68+ money for that coin if they thought the coin warranted an upgrade?"
Now we are discussing MS67 coin here, so paying above 68 money for 67 coins is paying over one grade point market value, end of story.
Then you post up this bit:
" I didn't mention the coin but my personal anecdote was regarding a gold coin graded AU50."
Apples and oranges, maybe you should review what you have posted as you seem to be very lost in this conversation. And again you are incorrect, the series and the grades matter greatly, it is a very different thing to get an upgrade from AU50 to AU53 when there are hundreds or thousands graded above. But it is a completely different animal when we are talking about the top of the grading scale, as this entire conversation is, where the pop is 4.
Reply if you like but I am done unless you wish to start making sense.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
No, we are not. I'm positing a hypothetical scenario. You have created some alternate scenario and are arguing against made up points.
I don't understand how me giving examples and scenarios to support my hypothesis (my oh so controversial hypothesis that dealers will pay premiums for premium coins) leads you to believe that i have implied that dealers are jumping over themselves to pay 68+ money for a 67 coin.
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Let us fall back to the question. At one time 2002-4 I ran into a hoard of OBW lincolns. Hundreds of rolls (from Ebay -no one believed the guy) from 1930 - 1945. I cherry picked the PQ coins and returned (probably many MS67's) back to the rolls (still have them). I was doing this just for my own collection; I just wanted the best. At the time it was near impossible to get a 68RD out of PCGS. I know of three of my coins later going 68RD and these were my rejects. Now I sent in a bunch of them to CAC as soon as it started and got 100% on that submission of like 50+ coins. I cherry picked the cherry picked for CAC. I have a few hundred that I never sent in and I should. So--- those early graded 2002-4 era coins, before plus, and really before PCGS would garner an MS68 to a anyone other than to Stewarts frickin awesome coins is what we are talking about. Yeah the money is not super important but I want to garner the best value. I have two kids in college. The question is do I re-submit the CAC coins for upgrades? I am thinking yes. If they plus I get cac back if they don't I still get CAC back. I do lose the color guarantee and the older holders and it is costly with so many coins.
Go ahead and send in a few hundred coins that upgrade to 68 or higher and watch the values drop like a rock.
LOL - yeah I wish - that is not going to occur. I think many will plus an pull a couple of 68's. If I am wrong then it is a net negative - hence the apprehension.
I am currently working on the Lincoln set 1909-1958 CAC
I'd be very interested in what you might have to help me fill some slots
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
PM me from time to time. I have a bunch, that I should send to CAC. Some of the 50's are 66RD, like the 1954, so those in 67RD are like making a 69-D jeff in FS - e.g. impossible in 67rd. I did make a couple of 58's in 67Rd, one upgraded to 67+ once they did the plus thing. I still have half of the rolls that it came from as OBW.
PM Sent
Mike
My Indians
Danco Set
Try shop them around the bourse at a show. Before going to the show - Perform a rundown of their MV per CDN CPG (CPG Cac for CaC) & Coin Facts. An offer of about 70 pct of CPG from show dealer is about 10 pct behind CDN Bid. That’s a good case scenario for what I would wager what they might offer. YMMV. My offer from my table at a show or say online bid at GC is a pct of what I estimate can sell it for. I evaluate CPG, CF, auc history, various sellers (ebay, NN). It varies with inventory needs, procurement overhead costs, and Current Market Conditions.
You could get them regraded,etc. before shopping around at a show. However that expense is going to be a hit after Sales - Inventory Cost of Sales. If you can’t get decent gross margin, Opex will drown you.
I suggest you get them regraded via Reconsideration BEFORE shopping them around. Even though PCGS has tightened, I think you have a very decent chance of financial success net of fees and shipping.
Some can say that’s easy advice for me to give, as it’s not my money, it’s yours. But if I were in the situation you describe, that’s EXACTLY what I’d do.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996