I Have a Small CAC-Rant
MatthewCoins
Posts: 18 ✭✭
Yes very choice words for the title I know. So why would they expand into grading when they have been CLOSED for what almost a year now to new memberships. Logically if they say they want to keep good service to their existing members then shouldn’t they actually focus on that instead of expanding into a brand new arena? To be clear I actually like the company and the founder very much my point is what they are doing seems not efficient and effects many people me included because now my only option is to find a dealer near me that I trust & the issue is there is 1 coin shop that I sort of do trust except he is unwilling to submit coins to CAC for customers. So am I really just supposed to find a new coin shop and drop off my most prized coins with someone new & what kind of insurance or guarantee would I have that they will arrive at CAC at all?
Comments
exactly....my local guy won't submit or do CAC. I guess it remains to be seen how this will go..
bob
CAC has been “closed” to new memberships for as along as I’ve been involved in the hobby. If you cordially write them a letter, explain your situation, and request that they consider adding you as a member at their next available opportunity, you might be surprised.
Also, I imagine if you post a desire to piggyback on the submission of someone else, you’d probably be successful. As far as guarantees go, shipping coins always involves risk. If you want someone else to assume some of that risk, you should be prepared to compensate them appropriately. You could also obtain your own insurance policy that covers your situation. Nobody is forcing you to use their service.
CAC?
Nothing is as expensive as free money.
Well lets first start with setting the record straight. CAC and CAC grading are two separate entities, they are not one and the same, hence why CAC is still in NJ and CACG is in VA. So CAC is not so much expanding as branching into a new area, JA is a smart individual and he knows that the stickering business can only last so long. CACG is a logical move and the perfect way for him to eventually close the stickering business in a few years time. Maybe this is his retirement plan, maybe not, but either way it is in fact a very efficient way to transition away from the stickers.
My suggestion, give it time, at this point we have no way to know just how the market will react and just how eagerly it will welcome the new CACG. Assuming it is a success, as I think it will, dealers who now might not want to use the new service may change their mind if the market premiums are strong enough.
And there are ways around this, I have no doubt that GC will be allowed to submit to CACG just as they can to CAC, so when you decide to sell yours coins that is a trusted way to have your coins seen by CACG.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
I believe John Albanese addressed this in a talk where he discussed how people had to pay tens to hundreds of dollars extra to have a coin go first to pcgs/ngc and have it graded there- and have the time and cost of shipping it tagged on-only to have to ship and pay for another opinion down the road at cac.
This would be a one stop shop getting everything bundled in. One cost for everything
What good is a CAC membership as they have not taken regular submission since September 2022? If I am missing something, let me know.
That is not true, unless you've only been around for less than 3 years
There was an enrollment for new members last in 2020, my paperwrk shows that I filled it out 9/01/2020
It got buried on my desk and never submitted, then they closed it off and I missed out.
I have a suggestion for you both, tell your "local coin shop" that if they are not willing to support you, the collector, then "you" are not willing to support them!!!!
Who knows ? It took me 19 years before I trusted what David Hall began, in the mid 80's ? So, I won't question JA's motives , but I had a dream once. Right when CAC began. It was a militant organization and I had to come to the position of attention when handing my coins over. That scared me from ever showing him the coins I sent to PCGS.
. So you see what bad dreams prevent ? Progress and profits.
>
I’m confused. In terms of “another opinion” How in any way would they be a one stop shop? If you send in a raw coin to CAC to be graded it’s one opinion the same way our host and other TPG’s give their “one opinion” by having 2 graders agree on a grade otherwise a tie breaker comes in to finalize it. I could maybe see this being true if one were to send CAC a graded coin on a “reconsideration” then a person would in fact get their 2nd opinion. I guess overall I’m salty because their membership is still closed and I will never understand phasing out the sticker service because not only is it popular, not only can they do it indefinitely alongside their grading, not only is it far more profitable looking at & stickering an already authenticated and encapsulated coin and not only is it that highly sought after 2nd opinion but it just means there is MORE incentive to crack out old PCGS & NGC holders in an attempt to upgrade because no one will want to sell their “shot at 66” coin for MS65 prices. Anyway I guess I’m all out of bickering. Thank you everyone for the input!
sounds like some folks are more concerned about plastic and stickers than their coins.
what happened to coin collecting, that it has become plastic and sticker collecting?
If all you are worried about is the dollars down the road, try investing in something you know
about yourself, and don't have to rely on someone else's opinions........
You speak a lot of truth brother. The only positive I see from CACG is the plus designation for collectors from crossing their A PCGS/NGC CAC coins to the new CACG holder. Otherwise I think most better classic USA coins have already been certified by PCGS and NGC.
I would love to see PCGS start a stickering service for NGC and CACG coins. Like the original CAC, it would be an easy source of revenue for them and it would be guaranteed to generate some lively discussions here.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
When CAC emerged, and after it became established, I thought at the time that JA might eventually transition to a full TPG.... So not totally surprised at this situation. He is an interesting individual and sharp business persona. It will be successful. Cheers, RickO
The idea of relying on someone else's opinion got traction when coin collecting, the hobby, turned into an industry. Who needs to learn how to grade when someone else, for a price, can do it for you? And then another someone else comes along and can tell you, rather than letting the coin speak for itself to you and fellow collectors, that this coin is nice for the grade and maybe, just maybe, is worthy of a higher number. The wheels of industry need to stay well-greased. No grease, no turn.
I like the idea of my best, most prized coins in my collection, being in a slab, no matter whose slab it's in. The forever guarantee of authenticity is there from the TPG slabber worth it's salt. PCGS is my favorite slab. My best coins in PCGS slab practically eliminates the possibility of me being stuck with a counterfeit coin. The coin in the slab, no matter who slabbed it, can be shown to others, non-collectors even, without fear of the coin's state being detrimentally affected by the non-collector's (or collector who should know better) mishandling of the slab. Spittle getting on the slab is not a big deal, can easily be cleaned off. Spittle on my prized 1909-S V.D.B., the coin itself, however, is a big deal and the possibility of it happening, no matter who might be responsible including myself, induces nightmares with me.
People collect or accumulate coins for different reasons and that's their right but I learned how to grade. I learned what original is supposed to look like. The number on the slab or a colored sticker on the slab it is not at the top of the list of things that make my coins prized by me. Want sticker? Buy a pack of adhesive star stickers and put green or gold stars on your favorite coins that you have in slabs.
Any stickering thing is simply an opinion at a point in time for a coin. Reaction to atmosphere (unattractive tarnish) and possibly decreasing in marketability exists.
They used to take a couple of new submitters each month. Did they stop doing that? Why don't you simply apply to be a collector submitter and see what happens?
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
That's the entire purpose of CAC; a third party's opinion of a third party's grade.
Check out my iPhone app SlabReader!
Exactly- and my understanding is they are looking to phase out CAC and just use their grading company.
Thereby, any coin that is in their holder is solid for the grade.
If its a solid MS64- they will put it in a 64 holder.
If its a low end 64- my understanding is that it will go into a 63 holder thereby making it a solid+ 63
Same for all grades.
We shall see how the market accepts and adjusts to this.
Since we’re on the CAC topic.
How will CACG handle crossovers that are already stickered? I mean, and in my case this would be NGC, will they cross it to the grade that is showing? We all know that PCGS loves to often drop the grade of a stickered NGC coin. But if CACG does this, won’t it say to the market, that they(CAC) were actually wrong when they initially stickered the coin? IMO, it would be bad optics for CAC, if grades suddenly started dropping on stickered coins.
If they do cross at the same grade, and the market accepts them close to PCGS prices, I see a lot of NGC stickered coins heading there to cross, especially if anyone is at all concerned that PCGS won’t accept the current grade.
This fact concerns me and I believe CACG prices will trade somewhere in between NGC and PCGS. Many buyer’s may assume a potential purchase was just a NGC coin that was crossed to CACG because the seller had concerns that it wouldn’t cross equally to PCGS.
Maybe I’m overthinking things, as I sometimes do, but I wanted to throw this out and see if any of you are also wondering how this will all shake out.
Thoughts?
The fact is that a stickered NGC coin will automatically cross at the same grade, and receive the L designation in the serial number (legacy), the same as any stickered PCGS coin that crosses. I agree that the majority of submissions in the beginning will be NGC stickered coins. Regarding market acceptance, all we can do is speculate.
Type Collector of U.S. Pre-33 Gold https://instagram.com/deplorable_dan Successful transactions with- @drfish, @Cladiator, @johnny010, @Pedzola, @PerryHall, @2windy2fish, @Ike1964, @JohnThePainter, @rpmsrpms, @REALGATOR
With the insane logic used by some collectors, I'd imagine John Albanese and many of the folks at PCGS must have the patience of Job*.
*Old Testament, not Steve.
peacockcoins
This thread probably belongs across the street at cac forum, the last rant someone had was nuked soon after, I hope this stays civil, and at Defcon 5 levels.
Personally, I like CAC, always did, and I like PCGS too, a lot. Many of us do.
So what's so wrong with having two loves?
.
If you are referring to my post, please explain where I’m bordering on insanity? I am open to learning or going for professional help, if needed.😂
HillbillyCollector, you're good, I enjoy your insights.
IF I was to break down one of your comments it would go something like this:
Your comment: "We all know that PCGS loves to often drop the grade of a stickered NGC coin."
My comment:
My remarks above were not directly aimed at you although you're bundled with it all.
I also place myself within the equation.
peacockcoins
Thanks @braddick for the clarification.
Yeah, I was a little aggressive using the word ‘love.’ That implies that they are just sitting around waiting to ‘ding’ a NGC coin.😂
I know that’s not the case.
I’ll try to tone down thing a bit in the future.
But you try and keep me honest, if I get carried away!😉
Take care!
HB
Would be funny if Seinfeld was a coin collector?
Sadly, I suspect the Mercury Dime George spotted from across the room would likely not resonate well...
No sticker for George
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
MY HEAD HURTS!!!!!
I will wait for the movie to be screened and then I will give my opinion after I have viewed it.
Joe.
Be patient, give it time. Remember coin collecting is a hobby with a lot of older men participating. Time is something a lot of collectors don’t have a lot of left. How about hurry up.
While you are correct that they have not accepted coins for stickering at the $16 level since September 2022, they HAVE never stopped taking coins valued up to $10,000 at the $35 level. As such, one just has to decide if getting their coin that is defect-free and solid for the grade stickered for $35 is worthwhile?
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
To my knowledge CAC has not published on their website or sent correspondence to their members about accepting coins under 10K at the $35 level. CAC could have done a better job at keeping their members updated on the $16 level status. If I submit a coin under 10K as a none dealer, do I pay for all coins submitted or only the ones that sticker?
Good news! You pay only for the $35 ones that sticker under the CURRENT policy. But possibly hurry up, as that policy is about to change any day now. It sounds like once CACG has their soft opening on June 1st, with pricing tiers established, they will be reopening shortly after that all tiers for CAC members for stickering. However, the tier breakdown and pricing will be different, AND it sounds like Collector members will be entitled to just 20 coins that fail at no charge.
I might be a bit wrong, so please don't hold me to those exact words (but that's my understanding from what I believe I read).
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I like the fact they have brought more transparency and analytical thinking to grading and the reasons behind their grading standards.
But would prefer a PCGS and cac stickered coin, to one in their holder. And depending on how similar their holders are to others I'd think they'd potentially be a target for litigation.
I'll believe that when I see it.
What I expect to happen is the same old whining and carping about the assigned grade that we get from every TPG from the best to the sub-sub-sub-basement. Except with CACG it will be about more expensive coins and the difference of 1 point will be serious money.
ANA 49 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus" because ANA can't count)
In probably any coin valued over $300, a CAC sticker adds at least $35 worth of resale value. Hard to see how it isn't worth it for any coin worth $300 or more. Not that we wouldn't like to pay less.
Coins should be slabbed and stickered with 24 hours for a dollar. If we can put a person on the moon...
In reality I think CAC stickers are adding substantial money to inexpensive coins. I bought a MS 66 nice red Lincoln at GC for $20 bid, 30 all in. Couldn’t get any offers on EBay at all. Got a CAC sticker and sold it quickly for $80 back on EBay. I see many coins for a $100 Non CAC sell for $150-200 with a green CAC sticker. CAC is red hot now
This discussion is purely academic. Within 5-10 years, AI will have taken over, and there will no longer be a subjective element. Coins will never be seen, handled, or sneezed on by a human. Like a conveyor belt at Domino’s Pizza, raw coins go on the line, and computers will grade, encapsulate, and spit them out the other end.
So this leads to a question. Are there really enough classic coins out there that have not been graded or regraded? Just looking for estimates from the experts out there. 50% of the universe still out there raw? 30%?
If there are 3 or more serious operations out there competing for business, it looks like the industry will have to continue feeding off brand new mint products in order to remain viable.
I'm pretty sure all of the TPG's make all of their money off of the modern products and special labels.
That’s assuming computers are able to analyze surface quality, detect old cleanings, tilt the coin and see hairlines under secondary toning, judge the intangible “it factor” that takes a coin from a 65 to a 66 or 67 to a 7+, judge elevation chromatics that seem right but feel wrong, etc. etc.
AI is no doubt capable of more than we can imagine currently but there’s a lot of mechanical and algorithmic variables there for even an extremely complex machine to succeed in doing that with a lower margin of error than human beings on classic coins. Grading moderns in OGP would be another story.
Even IF that were to happen,,,,,, given the fact that there at least 4 or five major TPG companies,,,,,,, all would have a different computer program,,,,,,, all coins still would not grade the same at all five TPG companies and as said above the computer would have to read various factors and I don't see that being 100% the same on every scan.
JMHO,,,,,,
What will happen is that the TPGs will offer AI grading for something like $10/coin or human grading for $40/50 coin and the market will discount the AI graded coins like the market does with SEGS and IGC and place a premium on the human graded coins, just like they do the JA-approved coins. As a submitter you'll have to ask yourself if it's worth the extra grading fee.
It is more likely to be an AI and human process with the human serving as the finalizer.