Is this authentic? 1795 13 leaves $10

PeakRarities

This was posted elsewhere, but its an odd situation. The person who inquired about this coin said they bought it and "didnt know much about the coin" and have begun to do their research now, lol. Very Strange backstory, but from what I can see the coin appears to be the BD-4 variety. I notice that the top serif of the 5 might not have enough curve, and the base of the "I" in liberty looks sort of wide when comparing to others. I'm really not sure, wondering what you all think.

Meltdown

I don't know jack squat but it passes my eyeball test.

Cladiator

Like @Meltdown I also don't know jack but I'm always suspicious of early American gold of this caliber that is raw.

MarkInDavis

I also know nothing of these. The wear pattern and denticles concern me. Someone who really knows should be along soon.

Edit after looking at a few on coinfacts and photograde, I am less concerned.

MFeld

Based just upon glancing at the images, and not having done any investigation, whatsoever, my initial impression is that the coin is genuine.

lermish

• i am wrong, please ignore.

lermish

• I continued to be wrong, please continue to ignore

dhikewhitney

That is a very expensive coin to be out of a holder. What is the back story ?
Otherwise, fast walk it into PCGS/NGC.

alaura22

Buy only on the condition that it straight grades........

PeakRarities

@dhikewhitney said:
That is a very expensive coin to be out of a holder. What is the back story ?
Otherwise, fast walk it into PCGS/NGC.

There really isn't a backstory, I guess that is what's strange. It was posted on FB by a new member of the group, who said he just bought it and is now getting around researching it to figure out the value. Doesn't make any sense, but I was just curious for my own educational purposes if it was authentic.

lermish

@lermish said:
Ok, I'm not an expert at this but this doesn't match any of the known die combinations.

EDIT: As far as I can tell, but I fully own up that I may be wrong.

EDIT AGAIN: I sent you a photo link for the diagnostics.

Like I said...not an expert, I was looking at half eagle diagnostics. Sigh. Still looking.

dhikewhitney

Is it someone you know or a stranger ?

PeakRarities

@dhikewhitney said:
Is it someone you know or a stranger ?

Just a stranger on the internet

dhikewhitney

I would then assume stolen and taken out of a holder until proven otherwise.

lermish

@lermish said:

@lermish said:
Ok, I'm not an expert at this but this doesn't match any of the known die combinations.

EDIT: As far as I can tell, but I fully own up that I may be wrong.

EDIT AGAIN: I sent you a photo link for the diagnostics.

Like I said...not an expert, I was looking at half eagle diagnostics. Sigh. Still looking.

I quoted my incorrect analysis to save my wrongness for posterity. It does look like BD-4 to me now that I am looking at the correct coin denomination

PerryHall

Looks real but possibly cleaned.

lkenefic

So, to recap... some random dude "just bought" a high five-figure coin... raw... and they're just getting around to researching it? I suppose some people have more money than sense but it seems a bit odd to me...

Namvet69

We could create a back story like it was in the stomach contents of large reptile in a bayou. Nah! Oak island! Nah, in the waist coat pocket of ?

MFeld

@dhikewhitney said:
I would then assume stolen and taken out of a holder until proven otherwise.

I wouldn’t assume anything, though I’d consider multiple possible scenarios.

Cladiator

@DeplorableDan said:

It was posted on FB by a new member of the group
>

With this type of coin, red flag #1

Cladiator

@DeplorableDan said:

he just bought it and is now getting around researching it to figure out the value.
>

Red flag #2

jesbroken

I would need a book on this one. Many top star points are off, the curl of the 5 is short. Might be a variety. Sorry, cannot help.
Jim

Project Numismatics

@MFeld said:

@dhikewhitney said:
I would then assume stolen and taken out of a holder until proven otherwise.

I wouldn’t assume anything, though I’d consider multiple possible scenarios.

That’s a lot of possibilities!

NeophyteNumismatist

@DeplorableDan said:
This was posted elsewhere, but its an odd situation. The person who inquired about this coin said they bought it and "didnt know much about the coin"...

... and then there is me.... Lamenting over which electric toothbrush to buy. (I do think that Sonicare would be better for my gums).

Proofmorgan

Someone would have to go to great lengths and know a lot about varieties to copy the BD-4 all the way to the die break between "OF" and "America". No doubt authentic in my mind, beyond that I can't say without having it in hand.

Walkerguy21D

@Cladiator said:

@DeplorableDan said:

he just bought it and is now getting around researching it to figure out the value.
>

Red flag #2

Why is this a red flag, other than it being a rare coin?
If he was offering it for sale with a no return policy, that would be a red flag. But asking for information seems relatively innocent.

logger7

Poor resolution; these start in the $20Ks. Doug Davis only has a fraction of hot items he sends out broadcasts on. Very suspicious to not have a reasonable story behind it. I'd start asking questions and go from there. Rare coins like that have been in a collection for 220 plus years, they don't suddenly show up without a reasonable cause.

alaura22

@Proofmorgan said:
Someone would have to go to great lengths and know a lot about varieties to copy the BD-4 all the way to the die break between "OF" and "America". No doubt authentic in my mind, beyond that I can't say without having it in hand.

I wouldn't underestimate what can be achieved these days with the technology out there. Look at what they do with being able to copy a PCGS & NGC holder. You can also look at what Dan Carr does, his work is amazing, so, it can be done especially doing a $$$$ worth coin.

Cladiator

@Walkerguy21D said:

@Cladiator said:

@DeplorableDan said:

he just bought it and is now getting around researching it to figure out the value.
>

Red flag #2

Why is this a red flag, other than it being a rare coin?
If he was offering it for sale with a no return policy, that would be a red flag. But asking for information seems relatively innocent.

I'm guessing the coin is XFish in details? If so the PCGS price guide puts its value between $75,000-$85,000. We know those prices are usually high so let's say the owner only spent a cool $50,000 for it. Who spends anywhere in the range of fifty thousand dollars without researching and figuring out the value before hand? For an investment like this I'd expect a legitimate interested party to have asked for this type of information prior to considering a purchase of the coin. It's absolutely a red flag (to me at least).

braddick

Hey, someone posted a 1793 large cent that, upon first blush, looked like it may not be authentic, so I've learned not to judge too hastily.
I vote for authenticity, and it is cool to see these raw still out there.
(Although that doesn't discount the notion it may have been slabbed previously and since removed...)

dhikewhitney

Recent Auctions:
https://www.pcgs.com/auctionprices/item/1795-10-13-leaves/8551/2127013014297083817
shows an XF Details NGC (reverse repaired) that only sold for $20,800
while a straight graded XF45 PCGS sold for $70,500
https://www.pcgs.com/auctionprices/item/1795-10-13-leaves/8551/-1056185588176720790

quite a spread between quality and damaged/repaired

dcarr

It appears to be genuine.

Nysoto

The latest die state of 1795 BD-4 $10 has a very faint die crack top of LIBE, not shown in Dannreuther but plated in Taraszka 4: 3-C which is in the same position of OP coin (Taraszka says "None to Faint"). This would be a very rare die state and difficult to transfer the faint crack on a fake. I would want to see in hand, weigh, count the edge reeds and measure diameter per Taraszka to verify.

MFeld

@braddick said:
Hey, someone posted a 1793 large cent that, upon first blush, looked like it may not be authentic, so I've learned not to judge too hastily.
I vote for authenticity, and it is cool to see these raw still out there.
(Although that doesn't discount the notion it may have been slabbed previously and since removed...)

It’s easy to judge hastily when a very rare and valuable, ungraded coin is involved - especially when accompanied by a very strange/unusual story from an unknown person on Facebook.
On the other hand, it can be difficult to judge (just) the coin, based on the images provided, while ignoring all of the potential concerns.

In this case, those of us who thought/think the coin is genuine had the luxury of not having been asked by a potential buyer whether he should purchase it and what it was worth.😉

johnny9434

@Meltdown said:
I don't know jack squat but it passes my eyeball test.

Mine as well

bsshog40

I don't believe anything I see on FB. Could be just a picture and someone trying to fool/spam people. Who knows!!

alaura22

I placed an add on Crigeslist the other day for a tool for $150 and within 2 hours I had someone trying to scam me into giving them my google password
What has this world come to.................

PeakRarities

@bsshog40 said:
I don't believe anything I see on FB. Could be just a picture and someone trying to fool/spam people. Who knows!!

Ive since gotten more info about the origins, and the story actually checks out. The initial post was just vague, but the coin will be sent for grading after a consultation with a well known numismatist. After some additional research, and reading the comments here, I'm leaning strongly towards authentic. Whether or not it straight grades is a different matter, and I'm not very optimistic about that but i've been wrong before. Either way, I'll update the thread if/when I hear anything about the results.

alaura22

So does this mean we have to wait a few months for an outcome?

davewesen

I would want to see the edge as it looks like it was struck in a collar

what is that on reverse between OF AMERICA, a die chip? (it seems raised)

PeakRarities

@davewesen said:
I would want to see the edge as it looks like it was struck in a collar

what is that on reverse between OF AMERICA, a die chip? (it seems raised)

Yes, the die break and is one of the identifiers for the bd-4 variety.

lermish

@alaura22 said:
So does this mean we have to wait a few months for an outcome?

Based on value this would have to go walkthrough so probably sooner depending on how long it takes to submit.

CaptHenway

@Cladiator said:
Like @Meltdown I also don't know jack but I'm always suspicious of early American gold of this caliber that is raw.

Why? There is no law that says every expensive coin has to be slabbed.

Did you see my thread the other day about dinner with friends? The Octagonal Pan-Pac was not the rarest item viewed that evening. Everything was raw. The collector who own that particular piece, who is older and wiser than I am, prefers them that way.

gumby1234

I don't know , but it doesn't look to be a match to this one thats PCGS certified.

gumby1234

the 9 and 5 in the date look wonky as does Miss Liberty's smile

Cladiator

@CaptHenway said:

@Cladiator said:
Like @Meltdown I also don't know jack but I'm always suspicious of early American gold of this caliber that is raw.

Why? There is no law that says every expensive coin has to be slabbed.

Did you see my thread the other day about dinner with friends? The Octagonal Pan-Pac was not the rarest item viewed that evening. Everything was raw. The collector who own that particular piece, who is older and wiser than I am, prefers them that way.

Because suspicion is healthy when warranted and when dealing with high dollar amounts, it certainly is warranted.

I would be suspicious of a raw Octo Pan-Pac as well. In the case of your friend my suspicion would have been alleviated when I was able to meet to the owner, see he is an old and wise collector and he explained the valid reason the coin was raw. Valid facts presented, suspicion eliminated.

It's due diligence to be suspicious and investigate to ensure things are what they are being represented as. To not be suspicious and investigate would be foolhardy. Suspicion is not a statement that something is counterfeit, modified, bad, being sold as something it's not. Suspicion is simply not knowing the pertinent facts and wondering what those facts are and why they have not been presented.

PerryHall

@alaura22 said:
So does this mean we have to wait a few months for an outcome?

It depends where he sends it.

ricko

After reading the thread, and looking at the posted information, the coin appears to be authentic - though I am no expert in this area. A very valuable coin indeed. It will be interesting to see the results of submission. Cheers, RickO

dhikewhitney

@CaptHenway said:

@Cladiator said:
Like @Meltdown I also don't know jack but I'm always suspicious of early American gold of this caliber that is raw.

Why? There is no law that says every expensive coin has to be slabbed.

Did you see my thread the other day about dinner with friends? The Octagonal Pan-Pac was not the rarest item viewed that evening. Everything was raw. The collector who own that particular piece, who is older and wiser than I am, prefers them that way.

Your friends are a much different case than this one (expert vs novice).
Reread OP’s explanation :“The person who inquired about this coin said they bought it and "didnt know much about the coin" and have begun to do their research now, lol.”

Maywood

Maywood

I think it is bogus, based solely on examining Stack's images of the four 13 leaves variety coins. The obverse/reverse images don't seem to match, but I may be wrong.