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Look real?

3stars3stars Posts: 2,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

Have an opportunity to buy two Englehard 100oz silver bars for 10% back of spot - does it look good?

Previous transactions: Wondercoin, goldman86, dmarks, Type2

Comments

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,176 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Be very careful. The extruded style Engelhard bars were occasionally drilled to steal some silver from the bar. Scammers would drill three or four large holes from the end of the bar for the full length of the bar and then backfill the holes with a tungsten alloy having the same density as silver. The end was smoothed over and polished hiding the alteration. Some dealers buying this style of bar would saw them in half to verify they haven't been altered.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • tincuptincup Posts: 4,719 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Tungsten is close to the same weight as gold? Perhaps it is gold bars you may be thinking of in regards to the drilling/filling with tungsten. Or perhaps it happened to the silver bars also?

    ----- kj
  • tincuptincup Posts: 4,719 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 5, 2023 5:41PM

    Beats me.... but I'd still be careful. Why is someone selling at a ten percent discount? Not sure it makes much sense when silver is pretty desirable right now, especially engelhard bars are usually pretty easy to sell.

    ----- kj
  • HigashiyamaHigashiyama Posts: 2,124 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Agree with @tincup - be skeptical of an Engelhard bar below spot.

    Higashiyama
  • 3stars3stars Posts: 2,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It was on Facebook marketplace, so already a bit sketchy

    Previous transactions: Wondercoin, goldman86, dmarks, Type2
  • rte592rte592 Posts: 1,380 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Offer 20% back of spot and see what the reaction is :)
    I would assume you could do the tests, weight, magnet or take it to someone who has an XRF machine.
    Fake Book, first strike.
    Run the sellers name and see if they are trying to sell someplace else.
    If you get enough contact information? You should be able to get the feel of it's legit.

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,176 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Cladiator said:
    Here's a pic of a drilled one I found online

    This is exactly what I was talking about. The scammers targeted the 100 oz Engelhard extruded silver bars since the end of the bars is flat and can be easily repaired after the silver is removed. I wouldn't doubt that other brands of bars were also targeted by the scammers.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • tincuptincup Posts: 4,719 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:

    @Cladiator said:
    Here's a pic of a drilled one I found online

    This is exactly what I was talking about. The scammers targeted the 100 oz Engelhard extruded silver bars since the end of the bars is flat and can be easily repaired after the silver is removed. I wouldn't doubt that other brands of bars were also targeted by the scammers.

    The older I get... the more I have yet to learn! PerryHall I somehow missed hearing about this being done to silver Engelhard bars, your explanation makes sense. Cladiator thanks for finding and posting the picture.

    Yes, I would certainly be wary of that deal.

    ----- kj
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,176 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The deal may be entirely legitimate but be careful and examine the ends of the bar carefully. Caveat emptor!

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • jimqjimq Posts: 253 ✭✭✭

    Sorry to hijack the OP, are there any pictures of the ends of a filled bar? All of mine have similar cutting marks and I'm curious how they would replicate that. Mine all tested good on an XRF but I was pretty nervous when I heard of them being filled.

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 45,176 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jimq said:
    Sorry to hijack the OP, are there any pictures of the ends of a filled bar? All of mine have similar cutting marks and I'm curious how they would replicate that. Mine all tested good on an XRF but I was pretty nervous when I heard of them being filled.

    The ends of these extruded bars were cut with a circular saw and the presence of circular saw marks on the ends of the bar is a good way to authenticate them.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,263 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Good thread!

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • jimqjimq Posts: 253 ✭✭✭

    @PerryHall said:

    @jimq said:
    Sorry to hijack the OP, are there any pictures of the ends of a filled bar? All of mine have similar cutting marks and I'm curious how they would replicate that. Mine all tested good on an XRF but I was pretty nervous when I heard of them being filled.

    The ends of these extruded bars were cut with a circular saw and the presence of circular saw marks on the ends of the bar is a good way to authenticate them.

    Thanks! most of them have circular saw marks, a few cuts look more like a band saw on one end.

  • justindanjustindan Posts: 685 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If it seems to good to be true....

  • rte592rte592 Posts: 1,380 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @3stars said:
    It was on Facebook marketplace, so already a bit sketchy

    Is the seller local or close to your location?
    You Would have to go look and do the checks and balances.
    10% back of spot is better than the seller would get from a pawnshop or gold and silver store.

  • VanHalenVanHalen Posts: 3,764 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Don't get overly paranoid, the vast majority of 100 oz bars are fine. The few that are not are usually pretty easy to identify.

    A little common sense goes a long way.

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Great picture showing a filled bar.... I have not purchased silver bars, but will be very cautious should I venture in that direction. Cheers, RickO

  • coinnerdcoinnerd Posts: 485 ✭✭✭
    edited May 8, 2023 6:07PM

    Usually lead was used to fill the drilled holes to match the exact weight. A skilled person could plug these with real silver and repair so they could not be detected by examination. Back before the electronic detectors, dealers would saw them in half(as shown above) or heat a suspect bar with a blow torch with the seller present. This would cause the lead to expand and blow out the plugs in the ends revealing the fraud.

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