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Gold premium

percybpercyb Posts: 3,295 ✭✭✭

Which gold coins carry the least amount of premium,
and do you expect that premium to expand once the
other coins premium become too exorbitant?
I ask because I have a couple of first wives coins and though up in
price with gold,
have gained little premium.

"Poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world." PBShelley
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Comments

  • coinnerdcoinnerd Posts: 489 ✭✭✭

    The $5 gold commemoratives have a low premium. Same gold as the pre 1933 fives. Until people catch on that these are good US gold and the demand goes up the premiums will stay low.

  • CrustyCrusty Posts: 1,060 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If your holding out and waiting for the first spouses to gain more premium, I would not hold your breathe. They have everything going against them. They will probably always sell similar to the commemorative arts gold medals. This is not a bad thing for those of us who like to buy gold and gain as many ounces as possible. That being said if you’re selling I would be interested…. I am building a set of uncs and have also started acquiring the proofs when the right deal comes along.

    I have also been stacking first spouses and $5 gold commemorative coins. Also buy British sovereigns if the deal is right. I doubt any of them gain significant premiums. Not enough people collect by date and build sets. So demand will remain close to spot. It’s hard to get your premiums back out when you decide to sell. So stick with the low premium gold.

    That’s my 2 cents…..

  • coinnerdcoinnerd Posts: 489 ✭✭✭

    There was a time not too many years ago when sovereigns carried a nice premium. They have lost a little popularity. The sovereign and the $5 commemoratives are my stack coins for smaller gold.
    There was a time when you had a hard time getting melt for AU twenty libs. but now they sell for more than AGEs. Popularity changes with the times.
    I do agree that the spouse coins may take a long, long time to see any premium.

  • GoldFinger1969GoldFinger1969 Posts: 1,162 ✭✭✭✭

    Premiums are going up across the board. A Saint I purchased basically for spot gold 4 years ago just sold for a 15% premium.

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,017 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinnerd said:
    The $5 gold commemoratives have a low premium. Same gold as the pre 1933 fives. Until people catch on that these are good US gold and the demand goes up the premiums will stay low.

    this applies to US coins. Many foreign coins carry even less premium

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,278 ✭✭✭✭✭

    People have offered ~5% above spot for the 2019-W NGC American Liberty 1oz gold that I have and am looking to sell. I think that is pretty low, but, what do I know....?

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There are collector premiums and PM premiums... When the PM premiums go up, the collector premiums tend to suffer. We will likely see rising PM premiums for a while. Cheers, RickO

  • percybpercyb Posts: 3,295 ✭✭✭

    @Crusty said:
    If your holding out and waiting for the first spouses to gain more premium, I would not hold your breathe. They have everything going against them. They will probably always sell similar to the commemorative arts gold medals. This is not a bad thing for those of us who like to buy gold and gain as many ounces as possible. That being said if you’re selling I would be interested…. I am building a set of uncs and have also started acquiring the proofs when the right deal comes along.

    I have also been stacking first spouses and $5 gold commemorative coins. Also buy British sovereigns if the deal is right. I doubt any of them gain significant premiums. Not enough people collect by date and build sets. So demand will remain close to spot. It’s hard to get your premiums back out when you decide to sell. So stick with the low premium gold.

    That’s my 2 cents…..

    I appreciate your keen insights, ones I hadn't considered. I don't have any to sell at the moment-- Just pondering the lack of premium on the spouses to the spot price.

    "Poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world." PBShelley
  • percybpercyb Posts: 3,295 ✭✭✭

    @ricko said:
    There are collector premiums and PM premiums... When the PM premiums go up, the collector premiums tend to suffer. We will likely see rising PM premiums for a while. Cheers, RickO

    That kind of surprises me about the collector premiums suffering, but it does seem
    to be the case, as you aptly noted. I guess there's no sense waiting for premium expansion
    on the spouses, for now anyway. I was also thinking that the population figures (somewhat low)
    would warrant more premium--but nay. :)

    "Poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world." PBShelley
  • percybpercyb Posts: 3,295 ✭✭✭

    @Bochiman said:
    People have offered ~5% above spot for the 2019-W NGC American Liberty 1oz gold that I have and am looking to sell. I think that is pretty low, but, what do I know....?

    That does seem low of AL 1 oz. I've seen much higher premiums on those.

    "Poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world." PBShelley
  • percybpercyb Posts: 3,295 ✭✭✭

    @coinnerd said:

    "There was a time when you had a hard time getting melt for AU twenty libs. but now they sell for more than AGEs. Popularity changes with the times."
    

    Hard to imagine the compressed premium...

    "I do agree that the spouse coins may take a long, long time to see any premium."
    It'd be nice if the mint marketed these better, for those of us holding some of them.

    "Poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world." PBShelley
  • CrustyCrusty Posts: 1,060 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @percyb - The spouses have a lot of cons…. Ugly designs, long series, expensive set to complete (considering most Americans can’t come up with the cash to buy one without a credit card), and no common obverse or reverse….. All these things work against them and create an environment of low demand, which I doubt will change in the next 50+ years.

    But the 2 pros that the series has make them attractive enough for me to want them. #1 -They are pure gold and right now two can be had for the same premium price as buying a full ounce of gold #2 They have very low mintages, plus tons of these have been melted.

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,265 ✭✭✭✭✭

    For several years, I was buying multiples of the spouse coins as a speculation. This approach failed in terms of collector premium, but I have been bailed out by the rising price of gold (which was part of the original speculation as well).

    As Crusty notes, the mintages are relatively low. They remind me of the classic commemorative half dollars that were minted from 1921 through 1954. As with the classic commemorative halves, there might be a few of the spouses that generate a following, but most of them will not.

    It may take awhile to see any real demand to materialize, other than the demand for gold bullion. Still, I know that a few collectors actually do collect them and the pendulum may swing in their direction some day.

    Maybe in a century ;)

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • HigashiyamaHigashiyama Posts: 2,133 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmski52 said: “As with the classic commemorative halves, there might be a few of the spouses that generate a following, but most of them will not.”

    If I were to buy an example or two, I might go for Mary Lincoln or Julia Grant, or maybe Eleanore Roosevelt. Certainly some extraordinary and/or colorful women to choose from.

    I’m curious: if you were to guess as to long term popularity, which few would you choose?

    Higashiyama
  • blitzdudeblitzdude Posts: 5,284 ✭✭✭✭✭

    European 20Fc, Mexican 10, 20, and 50 Pesos, British Sovereigns etc. those are the lowest premiums coins you will find.....on coins that anyone will ever want to buy from you without a lowball offer anyways. Stack on. RGDS!

    The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.

  • tincuptincup Posts: 4,721 ✭✭✭✭✭

    My candidate for one of the lowest premium gold coins... may be the 1976 Canadian Olympics $100 14k gold... 1/4 ounce AGW. Seems like I see a lot of them, very low premium. Not much in demand I guess. Just saw one for $520 and free shipping.....

    ----- kj
  • HigashiyamaHigashiyama Posts: 2,133 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @blitzdude said: European 20Fc, Mexican 10, 20, and 50 Pesos, British Sovereigns etc. those are the lowest premiums coins you will find.....on coins that anyone will ever want to buy.

    All great coins, but hard not to love a George V sovereign.

    Higashiyama
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,017 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 28, 2023 6:51AM

    @jmski52 said:
    For several years, I was buying multiples of the spouse coins as a speculation. This approach failed in terms of collector premium, but I have been bailed out by the rising price of gold (which was part of the original speculation as well).

    For years, because of their purity and low after market price, gold US spouse coins were the smartest play when stacking gold. Since then those who hold them have come to their senses when selling them.

    @Higashiyama said:

    I’m curious: if you were to guess as to long term popularity, which few would you choose?

    Those containing .9999 gold. ;)

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • percybpercyb Posts: 3,295 ✭✭✭

    @Crusty said:
    @percyb - The spouses have a lot of cons…. Ugly designs, long series, expensive set to complete (considering most Americans can’t come up with the cash to buy one without a credit card), and no common obverse or reverse….. All these things work against them and create an environment of low demand, which I doubt will change in the next 50+ years.

    But the 2 pros that the series has make them attractive enough for me to want them. #1 -They are pure gold and right now two can be had for the same premium price as buying a full ounce of gold #2 They have very low mintages, plus tons of these have been melted.

    Now that you mention it, they are rather funky save for the first few wives. I agree
    that they're good for waging on the increased price of gold. A dealer near me
    said he melts them, too.

    "Poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world." PBShelley
  • percybpercyb Posts: 3,295 ✭✭✭

    @jmski52 said:

    It may take awhile to see any real demand to materialize, other than the demand for gold bullion. Still, I know that a few collectors actually do collect them and the pendulum may swing in their direction some day.

    Maybe in a century ;)

    Agree, I had to think through this a bit but a you note, the low premium is a nice
    way to play the price of the metal.

    "Poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world." PBShelley
  • percybpercyb Posts: 3,295 ✭✭✭

    @Higashiyama said:

    I’m curious: if you were to guess as to long term popularity, which few would you choose?

    I like Martha.

    "Poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world." PBShelley
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,265 ✭✭✭✭✭

    And Jackie Kennedy. And the classic designs - Jefferson, Jackson, VanBuren, Buchanan. Maybe Dolly Madison.

    If lots of these were being melted, it could be decades before any true indication of rarity will be evident - but maybe - someday a rarity premium could happen. In the meantime, they are .999 gold.

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • CrustyCrusty Posts: 1,060 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I agree with @jmski52 about the classic designs. But I’d say other than those 4, collectors should focus their attention to the lowest mintage examples. There is a big difference between a mintage of 10k+ and a coin with less than 2k. As mentioned before we won’t get a real sense of survival estimates for years to come. And may never get a good idea because most of these spouses never got slabbed.

  • GoldminersGoldminers Posts: 3,560 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I know most here are talking just gold value, but several of these first spouses in PCGS 70 first strike labels have populations of less than 100 and not many more are being graded. Few modern coins are that rare and these are becoming actually very hard to find.

    I would pay a 50% premium for all the 2020 Barbara Bush PR70 first strikes you have available for sale.

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It will likely be a long time before large collector premiums are realized. Meantime, gold will be rising, though a bit late to ride that pony.... Cheers, RickO

  • GoldFinger1969GoldFinger1969 Posts: 1,162 ✭✭✭✭

    Not sure I posted this....but I recently sold a 1915-S MS-63 OGH which I paid spot gold for at FUN 2020.

    Went to my LCS....gold was $1,980 that day on his chalk board....I got $2,300 for the coin, a 15% premium where none existed 4 years earlier.

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,017 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmski52 said:
    And Jackie Kennedy. And the classic designs - Jefferson, Jackson, VanBuren, Buchanan. Maybe Dolly Madison.

    If lots of these were being melted, it could be decades before any true indication of rarity will be evident - but maybe - someday a rarity premium could happen. In the meantime, they are .999 gold.

    gold spouse coins are 4 nines purity

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,017 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There was a time when the American Arts Commemorative Medals (predecessor to the American gold eagle) could be had at little to no premium. Stocked up on quite a few of them and then sold when their premiums and the price of gold shot up.

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • tincuptincup Posts: 4,721 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Quite a few of those gold arts medallions.... surely have been melted. Wonder what surviving mintages are.

    ----- kj
  • percybpercyb Posts: 3,295 ✭✭✭

    @Crusty said:
    I agree with @jmski52 about the classic designs. But I’d say other than those 4, collectors should focus their attention to the lowest mintage examples. There is a big difference between a mintage of 10k+ and a coin with less than 2k. As mentioned before we won’t get a real sense of survival estimates for years to come. And may never get a good idea because most of these spouses never got slabbed.

    To follow up on discerning an accurate population of these babies, I sold a VanBuren a while back. Guy told me he was going to melt it.

    "Poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world." PBShelley
  • CrustyCrusty Posts: 1,060 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @percyb - I believe it. I don’t think I’ve ever seen my local shop offer a first spouse. Certainly not in the last decade. Probably because they get melted instead of sitting in his cases taking up space. Space needed for the OGP is another factor holding these back. Not many have the space to store these with the OGP.

  • psuman08psuman08 Posts: 217 ✭✭✭

    What is the advantage to melting these down? I can see throwing away the OGP but I don't understand why these are being melted down as they are already refined.

  • CrustyCrusty Posts: 1,060 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @psuman08 said:
    What is the advantage to melting these down? I can see throwing away the OGP but I don't understand why these are being melted down as they are already refined.

    Because the market has decided that these are ugly. They are a harder sell than a nice looking bar or round.

  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,265 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2, 2023 5:28AM

    The spouses can be as ugly as sin, but they are still certifiable and recognizable as 1/2 oz. pure gold. Melting them is just an emotional response, but with some of them, I get it. :)

    If the really ugly ones get melting en masse, won't it blow your mind when they become rarities that are selling at a discount? >:)

    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    They may not gain a collector premium in most or our lifetimes, but will likely see a PM premium of significance.... hold on to them. Cheers, RickO

  • GoldminersGoldminers Posts: 3,560 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 2, 2023 9:16AM

    @jmski52 said:
    The spouses can be as ugly as sin, but they are still certifiable and recognizable as 1/2 oz. pure gold. Melting them is just an emotional response, but with some of them, I get it. :)

    If the really ugly ones get melting en masse, won't it blow your mind when they become rarities that are selling at a discount? >:)

    All of them look good to me, just turn them over ;)

  • percybpercyb Posts: 3,295 ✭✭✭

    @Crusty said:
    @percyb - I believe it. I don’t think I’ve ever seen my local shop offer a first spouse. Certainly not in the last decade. Probably because they get melted instead of sitting in his cases taking up space. Space needed for the OGP is another factor holding these back. Not many have the space to store these with the OGP.

    He suggested as much and noted then that he was most interested in American Eagles,

    "Poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world." PBShelley
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,017 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 3, 2023 5:52PM

    @percyb said:

    Just pondering the lack of premium on the spouses to the spot price.

    Most often premiums paid are based on hopes of being passed on at later sale. Buyers are willing to pay a higher premium for what they believe the market believes are premium products. As more people realize that spouse's are four nines pure and from the US mint spouse premiums will increase. They have already increased since I bought a boat full on the secondary market when they were only a couple of years old.

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • GoldFinger1969GoldFinger1969 Posts: 1,162 ✭✭✭✭

    It's funny because the premiums on TPG common/generic gold are VERY strong. I sold a 1915-S Saint MS-63 OGH that I bought for spot at FUN 2020. Sold it a few weeks ago for 15% premium to gold.

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,017 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 6, 2023 5:55PM

    @percyb said:
    Which gold coins carry the least amount of premium,

    World one ounce gold coins ranked by dollar premium and percent premium.

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • GoldminersGoldminers Posts: 3,560 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Bloomberg News
    May 6, 2023, at 8:24 PM PDT

    China added to its gold reserves for a sixth straight month, extending a flurry of purchases as central banks around the world expand their holdings of bullion amid escalating geopolitical and economic risks.

    China raised its gold holdings by about 8.09 tons in April, according to data from the State Administration of Foreign Exchange on Sunday. Total stockpiles now sit at about 2,076 tons, after the nation increased reserves by about 120 tons in the five months through March.

  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,017 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 7, 2023 8:10AM

    @Goldminers said:
    Bloomberg News
    May 6, 2023, at 8:24 PM PDT

    China added to its gold reserves for a sixth straight month, extending a flurry of purchases as central banks around the world expand their holdings of bullion amid escalating geopolitical and economic risks.

    China raised its gold holdings by about 8.09 tons in April, according to data from the State Administration of Foreign Exchange on Sunday. Total stockpiles now sit at about 2,076 tons, after the nation increased reserves by about 120 tons in the five months through March.

    As they reduce their exposure to US debt.

    "Do you hear alarm bells ringing? Neither do I. And that’s a huge problem." - Simon Black

  • GoldminersGoldminers Posts: 3,560 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited May 7, 2023 4:49PM

    Change in M2 money supply -4% year over year. Yes, it went up during Covid at a record rate causing inflation, but that easy money is falling off fast now. Edited to point out this graph goes back to 1960, so this is a serious development.

  • percybpercyb Posts: 3,295 ✭✭✭
    edited May 7, 2023 5:08PM

    @Goldminers said:
    Change in M2 money supply -4% year over year. Yes, it went up during Covid at a record rate causing inflation, but that easy money is falling off fast now. Edited to point out this graph goes back to 1960, so this is a serious development.


    Thanks for posting this. Is there a Gold chart M2 overlay by chance. I see the parallel to which you allude as Gold climbs towards new highs.

    "Poets are the unacknowledged legislators of the world." PBShelley
  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 18,493 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:

    @Goldminers said:
    Bloomberg News
    May 6, 2023, at 8:24 PM PDT

    China added to its gold reserves for a sixth straight month, extending a flurry of purchases as central banks around the world expand their holdings of bullion amid escalating geopolitical and economic risks.

    China raised its gold holdings by about 8.09 tons in April, according to data from the State Administration of Foreign Exchange on Sunday. Total stockpiles now sit at about 2,076 tons, after the nation increased reserves by about 120 tons in the five months through March.

    As they reduce their exposure to US debt.

    Excellent!!

    Excuses are tools of the ignorant

    Knowledge is the enemy of fear

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