Post tax day - sigh - discussion with my wife went sideways - I said I don't spend much.....
Clackamas1
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I do not actually spend much. I live simply with older clothing, shoes and a 2008 truck. I had to write an obscene check to the feds and the state of Oregon. So I make the comment to my wife, that 'I don't spend much'. She instantly says "WHAT?!... you just spent $XK on guns and $XK in coins." I thought about it for a second and retorted 'those are not expenses - those are investments'. Who is correct?
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I consider my coins to be a hobby where hopefully I'll not lose much money at the end. Guns tho...with the price of ammo thats just an expense!
My State retirement and SRAs are doing much better than any coins or firearms I've accumulated over the years. But I dont have a safe full of original Swedish Mausers ($89 ea. back in the late 80s) or uncirculated Barber quarters either...
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Every coin I buy, i price in transactions costs (10-20% auction fees + shipping) as the cost of enjoying the hobby, and figure as long as I don't buy foolishly it will keep its value otherwise. Is that an investment, kind of, sure beats gambling. (Guns, no idea there.)
This... both are just hobbies for me. I'll likely be able to sell the coins at some point and recoup some of the "entertainment" part of my budget. Guns, depending on which ones, are more of a depreciating asset. Back when primers and powder weren't so pricey I'd shoot a lot more... I feel that the shooting sports are becoming just another rich man's hobby. I keep the ones I have more for insurance than for an investment...
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Do you want to be right or do you want to be effective? Such arguments with the spouse are rarely effective. I suggest you appeal to her by explaining how much these hobbies mean to you and make sure she has room to enjoy her hobbies too.
One of the best investments in the last 50 years are pre 1986 Full auto guns. Fine art is the only thing to beat it in total return.
True... the Cobray M-11 I purchased in 1985 ($350 + $200 tax stamp) and then sold to a Class III dealer before I left AZ (for around twice that) would be maybe $5k to $7k these days... but then you have to find a buyer willing to pay that amount, undergo the Federal background checks, fingerprint card, tax stamp fee, and wait a year or more depending on your local LE. IDK... it was a fun hobby but my shooting endeavors went in a different direction... and again, I never had enough of them to pad my retirement.
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Or a 91/30 mosin-nagant same price
It’s only an investment if you both agree that it’s an investment.
People don't look at cash in the bank as an investment, but it is. Your cash in the bank is a long US dollar position. If you don't think the USD will outperform other options, you should re-deploy it and take a long rare coin position, long gold, long real estate, long bitcoin, or long whatever position instead. Of course you do have to consider spreads and transaction costs.
Note that you cannot take a long consumer goods position (i.e, long television, long dresses, long shoes, long canned goods) as these assets do not (typically) hold value after you purchase them so those are expenses rather than investments.
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Your wife.
You are, of course, but don't ask me to vouch for you.....I've got my own problems!
Tom
Ive said it before on this forum, but I have my girlfriend convinced my coins will be worth millions when we're ready to retire, a method that works for me. Guns, now that's safety and I don't really need to explain to her why that's important. Good luck!
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I would say only coins that are precious metals should be considered “investments”. Silver or gold go up, so does the worth of the coins.
Well, It is kinda like this. We both know you were right. However, if you do not admit that she is right, then I hope you have a comfortable couch to sleep on the rest of the year.😁
USN & USAF retired 1971-1993
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You are, but I prefer to use the term "assets" rather than "investments" when having this "discussion" with my wife.
My guns are an expense. They are also insurance for the coming zombie apocalypse.
I have my hobbies and my wife has hers. Yes I do spend a lot of money on my coin collection and she know it. They are an investment that I also get to greatly enjoy as a hobby.
USAF (Ret.) 1985 - 2005. E-4B Aircraft Maintenance Crew Chief and Contracting Officer.
My current Registry sets:
✓ Everyman Mint State Carson City Morgan Dollars (1878 – 1893)
✓ Everyman Mint State Lincoln Cents (1909 – 1958)
✓ Morgan Dollar GSA Hoard (1878 – 1891)
I also live in Oregon, just sent checks to the IRS and Oregon like you(probably for a lot less), buy guns and coins like you (also at a smaller scale based on what I have seen from your previous posts),and yes she is right. These hobbies may generate some returns in the long run, but the purpose is for enjoyment, not financial returns. Stocks, Real Estate, etc are investments. So my approach with my wife is to use the 3/5ths rule. When she asks me what I spent I always tell her about 60% of what the coins and guns actually cost. Happy wife Happy life, keep the angst out of my relationship.
I don't know about guns, but the only coins that might consistently perform and be considered investments are way out of my reach. I only consider investment coins to be mostly 6 or 7 figure coins. If you have those coins then you are right, but if not, I think you may be wrong.
My 3-5 figure coins, like my baseball cards are not investments. This is a hobby for me where I spend discretionary income. This is my personal experience with collectibles. Unless you time it right, collectibles will more often than not lose you money. I held a large group of Nolan Ryan baseball cards for 27 years. The set was mostly complete 15 years ago. Over the last 15 years those cards were worth as little as $50,000 to as much as $250,000. I spent about $150,000 to put that collection together. I got lucky that I sold at the right time for about $210,000. Had I sold 10 years earlier I would have lost about $75,000 instead of making $60,000. That was just luck and good timing.
Donato
Donato's Complete US Type Set ---- Donato's Dansco 7070 Modified Type Set ---- Donato's Basic U.S. Coin Design Set
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So my approach with my wife is to use the 3/5ths rule. When she asks me what I spent I always tell her about 60% of what the coins and guns actually cost. Happy wife Happy life, keep the angst out of my relationship.
Oh You need to up your game. I like the 3/5ths rule but you need to use jedi tactics - "Those are not the droids you're looking for" - in coin and gun terms - "I have had that for years". You do need to come to Jesus every now and then so they get numbed by your excitement.
Who is correct?
Doesn't matter. Perception is reality. Or the new word is "optics"
I'm not hoping for any early demise, but if something happens to you, would you want your wife selling for maybe half of what your collection is actually worth? Juss' sayin'...
Someone in an earlier response classified coins as "assets" rather than "investments" and I think this is more accurate. As long as there's a general collecting Base, there will be a market for Coins... at least Classic US Issues that most numismatist gravitate toward. I also draw a distinction between these coins and bullion... bullion being a more longer term investment, however within this "investment" are we talking about physical PMs or futures... paper. I suppose it's a matter of scale as to whether or not it could be deemed an "asset" vs. "Investment".
Certain Firearms enjoy a fairly robust collecting base too. I used to collect bolt-actioned military rifles and some of these are fetching 10x or more than what I would have paid "back in the day". Would this hobby have ever financed a portion of my retirement as some sort of "investment"?? Not likely I'd ever have had a warehouse full of them...
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When one chooses to have a wife, isn't the wife always correct by default? Lol
I may have some problems in my life but a wife isn't one of them.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
I bet she'd let you spend even more on your hobbies if you splurged a bit on some new underwear if it's also circa 2008 or older.
I've never lost money on a gun yet.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
She is always right.
(But you are never wrong - so it works out - 😉)
Coins are not an investment
Only an idiot argues with She-Who-Must-Be-Obeyed
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
The household rule is 3rd hole and it goes out. OR if you can read a newspaper through the fabric. I foxed her on that - canceled the newspaper subscription!!!!
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
I hear you, but I have told her to get them to Heritage or Great Collections if something happens to me and she will realize fair value less fees, and hopefully there will also be appreciation over time. But basically I agree with all your comments. Also, Its important to diversify and spread ones wealth. I try to limit numismatic coins to under 10% of total assets/investments.
According to you, she said “you just spent $XK on guns and $XK in coins.”
if you spent the amount she said you did, then she was definitely correct. However, you might have also been correct.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
At least you filed by the deadline and don't have to worry about a pre-dawn raid by federal agents!
Works if you are a young man. : )
I find it to be substantially easier conversations about feds writing me a check, even though it was my money to begin with. The wife seems to take news much better that we are getting a few bucks back than writing outgoing checks. It is a form of marketing to your wife - LOL
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If you say they’re investments, are you willing to sell a few next year that would be at a loss to offset the tax burden? “Tax loss harvesting” is a real thing with investments.
You’re probably better off not discussing your spending habits like that. I’ll bet when you say “I don’t spend that much” she hears “so it must be you causing this problem.”
For me, for the most part, spending is spending. Some is for now, some is for tomorrow, but it all counts. Sometimes, then you still have to do these mental accounting exercises where you convince yourself that your hobby is an investment so you don’t have to count it against your underoo budget for the decade.
She's just upset she didn't spend that money.
Throw a coin enough times, and suppose one day it lands on its edge.
I am fortunate.
My wife has her hobbies and I have mine. No finger pointing. We both work. The bills are paid because she handles the money. Whatever I spend she knows about it. I do need to remind her that the money is not exactly spent, it's right here as I show her a coin. It may not be a $50,000 coin but it's not a losing scratch ticket either. So many Americans are brainwashed into thinking gambling will bring them to the promise land. Been there done that.
Honesty I have learned is the best policy in a relationship. After 40 years with the same women it finally took.
It was not always that way. I have my setbacks but I strive for it.
The state i live in is not gun friendly. It's not a matter of how many guns you have anyway. It's about using it safely and for all lawful putposes.
With the exception of large purchase items, such as a vehicle:
I have always used my own discretionary money accounts to buy coins and firearms. I do not ask for permission or approval from my wife.
She has no interest in coins, so I rarely show her my purchases or discuss them with her.
It is rarely that I purchase a new firearm. I already own all the firearms my wife, and I, will ever need.
My wife uses her own discretionary money to buy what she wants. She does not need my permission or approval.
Some coins can be profitable if held for many years, as well as a burden to sell when the time comes.
A good name brand firearm, will probably maintain it's value over the years.
With the exception of gold and silver, I do not consider my coins an investment, but a hobby.
My firearms are not an investment, they are for security.
Right! that is what I do. yeah it was $7200 but here it is. I can't even imagine what a $7200 night in Vegas [expense) would garner.
I think your concept is right, but you used the wrong words. Rather than saying “Investments”, perhaps you should have said something like “It’s not an expense, but just temporarily converting some cash to another asset that down the road can be converted back to cash - maybe a little less than I paid, maybe a little more. If we go out to a nice dinner and show, THAT’S an expense, even though it gives us pleasure and is worthwhile. Same if we go on vacation. While those things are important for us and good, they’re expenses. Unlike those expenses, the coins and guns someday can be sold and converted back to cash!”
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I can relate to where you're coming from.
I have 14 cars and one pair of shoes.
You have shoes?!
I have many firearms and many coins... And other items of hobby/collectible interests. I have sold items periodically, and the results have always impressed my wife. Since most have been long term acquisitions, I have done extremely well. So no issue with purchases on either side. Cheers, RickO
They're safety shoes: remember, he works around big nasty machinery.
ANA 50 year/Life Member (now "Emeritus")
Clackamas1 - I'm with you on that - I have a 1989 F250 and bought coats that will last my lifetime! Also recently wrote obscene checks to the state and feds.
It's getting harder to "invest" in guns in WA - they are gradually getting outlawed. Will have to stick with coins.
Yes, two of them.
Or move.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Another Rumpole fan! Reminds me of my other favorite quote:
"To wives and mistresses, may they never meet." Quote from "Master and Commander - The Far Side of the World"
If you're writing obscene checks to the Feds this time of the year I'd say that you likely also have an obscene income or are paying an obscene penalty [which I kind of doubt].The IRS requires that at least 90% of your Federal tax obligation be satisfied by 12/31 of each year or a 10% penalty applies to the shortfall. I suppose that obscene is relative and that maybe you're likely filing quarterly.
It wouldn't take many five figure coins to tear the hell out of an obscene income, but at even $3-$4K each I'd find it difficult to purchase a sufficient number of firearms that I could actually use unless I was stashing them to re-sell at a later date. If your wife's financial needs and security are/is being met why would she care how many firearms or coins that you invest in?
It's not really either one. There are probably some coins or firearms that could be investment grade. Most guns aren't likely to be worth a whole lot more than purchase price unless they are unfired.
Food is an expense as is clothing and gasoline and car repair.
No somehow my withholding got updated and did not withheld. I also have K1 income that does not get withheld. on.