Whether Max had the intent to violate the spirit of the rule I can’t say. But as far as using something other than rosin, he would have to be completely insane to do that after he had already been reprimanded twice. If he were inclined to use an illegal substance, that is the absolute last time he would decide to do it. The one thing that I think is clear is that he was using only rosin. Whether the way he used it was illegal or not is a fair discussion.
And if alcohol combined with rosin makes it extra sticky as has been reported, then why did an MLB official watch him wash his hand with alcohol and say nothing?
I think that both sides could have things correct here, in a way.
It is possible that in this instance, he was using a substance beyond even rosin, and that he also doubled down on that use even after his glove was changed.
It's also possible that this particular umpire is calling things tighter and more frequently, in terms of these issues.
It's also true, as far as I know, that the use of different substances is accepted and demanded, as I pointed out above regarding players and their safety.
This could also mean that the league has to still be seen as holding players accountable. It could also mean that they do that by having certain umps take on certain roles.
Also, while the use of these substances is accepted and expected, the overuse of them can sometimes be called out, particularly when a player is having a little too much success with it or has perhaps rubbed some other players, umps, or personnel the wrong way.
All of this could be true and happening simultaneously. So when an instance such as this pops up (baseball pun intended) you get discussion and banter on many levels (including here, among us).
@craig44 said:
If he had rosin on his glove, he was in violation of the rules.
Period.
violation of the rules = cheating.
Then every player should be thrown out of every game. Position players will even use small amounts of pine tar in the palms of their glove. Balls are coming at over 100 MPH rosin inside your glove to help keep it on when a 110 mph gets hits at you from 45 feet away is hardly cheating for a pitcher. Its also completely irrelevant to your pitching hand especially since you can just go pick up the rosin bag again if you want more
Again his glove was changed anyways and then still got thrown out later. The problem is with Cuzzi not Mad Max
you can try to rationalize it any way you want, but the rule is the rule. Here is the order of inspections:
Order of Inspections
After the second inning, first base umpire Phil Cuzzi determined Scherzer’s pitching hand was stickier and darker than normal. Cuzzi ordered Scherzer to wash his hand which Scherzer said he did with alcohol while an unnamed major league official watched.
At the end of the third inning, Cuzzi then determined the pocket of Scherzer’s glove was “sticky,” likely with too much rosin. Scherzer was ordered to change gloves which he did.
Before the start of the bottom of the fourth inning, the umpires determined Scherzer’s hands were stickier than earlier in the game. At that point the Mets right hander was ejected.
Plate umpire Dan Bellino said, “As far as stickiness, level of stickiness, this was the stickiness that it has been since I’ve been inspecting hands which goes back three seasons. It was reported that “when the umpires touched Scherzer’s hand, their fingers were sticking to his hand.”
Bellino added, “Every pitcher we check, we’re accustomed to what that rosin residue will be on a pitcher’s hand. The fact that this went so much further was indicative that there was something likely more than just rosin…whatever it was, it was all over the palm. It was up on the inside of the fingers.”
It sure seems there was something beyond rosin being used here. Of course Max will deny it. any cheater would. Just because Scherzer gets all hysterical and yells doesnt mean he is innocent. Bellino said that the umpires fingers were actually sticking to Max's hand. He was clearly in violation of the rules.
Remember, just because Max said it was only Rosin doesnt mean it was only rosin.
Bellino is just saying what he has to once Cuzzi made up his mind. No umpire in their right mind is going to come out and say it was all him I had nothing to do with it or didnt agree with it especially not a veteran umpire with power like Cuzzi.
Max was only using rosin. He would have to be the dumbest player in the world to continuously reapply something else. The alcohol they made him wash his hands with can also increase the tackiness of rosin. His glove was taken away, his hands were washed, and Cuzzi still through him out. The problem is with Cuzzi not Max
@craig44 said:
If he had rosin on his glove, he was in violation of the rules.
Period.
violation of the rules = cheating.
Then every player should be thrown out of every game. Position players will even use small amounts of pine tar in the palms of their glove. Balls are coming at over 100 MPH rosin inside your glove to help keep it on when a 110 mph gets hits at you from 45 feet away is hardly cheating for a pitcher. Its also completely irrelevant to your pitching hand especially since you can just go pick up the rosin bag again if you want more
Again his glove was changed anyways and then still got thrown out later. The problem is with Cuzzi not Mad Max
you can try to rationalize it any way you want, but the rule is the rule. Here is the order of inspections:
Order of Inspections
After the second inning, first base umpire Phil Cuzzi determined Scherzer’s pitching hand was stickier and darker than normal. Cuzzi ordered Scherzer to wash his hand which Scherzer said he did with alcohol while an unnamed major league official watched.
At the end of the third inning, Cuzzi then determined the pocket of Scherzer’s glove was “sticky,” likely with too much rosin. Scherzer was ordered to change gloves which he did.
Before the start of the bottom of the fourth inning, the umpires determined Scherzer’s hands were stickier than earlier in the game. At that point the Mets right hander was ejected.
Plate umpire Dan Bellino said, “As far as stickiness, level of stickiness, this was the stickiness that it has been since I’ve been inspecting hands which goes back three seasons. It was reported that “when the umpires touched Scherzer’s hand, their fingers were sticking to his hand.”
Bellino added, “Every pitcher we check, we’re accustomed to what that rosin residue will be on a pitcher’s hand. The fact that this went so much further was indicative that there was something likely more than just rosin…whatever it was, it was all over the palm. It was up on the inside of the fingers.”
It sure seems there was something beyond rosin being used here. Of course Max will deny it. any cheater would. Just because Scherzer gets all hysterical and yells doesnt mean he is innocent. Bellino said that the umpires fingers were actually sticking to Max's hand. He was clearly in violation of the rules.
Remember, just because Max said it was only Rosin doesnt mean it was only rosin.
Bellino is just saying what he has to once Cuzzi made up his mind. No umpire in their right mind is going to come out and say it was all him I had nothing to do with it or didnt agree with it especially not a veteran umpire with power like Cuzzi.
Max was only using rosin. He would have to be the dumbest player in the world to continuously reapply something else. The alcohol they made him wash his hands with can also increase the tackiness of rosin. His glove was taken away, his hands were washed, and Cuzzi still through him out. The problem is with Cuzzi not Max
again, you are rationalizing. you dont know it was only rosin. Come on, do you really think Max would admit to using something in addition to rosin?
@craig44 said:
If he had rosin on his glove, he was in violation of the rules.
Period.
violation of the rules = cheating.
Then every player should be thrown out of every game. Position players will even use small amounts of pine tar in the palms of their glove. Balls are coming at over 100 MPH rosin inside your glove to help keep it on when a 110 mph gets hits at you from 45 feet away is hardly cheating for a pitcher. Its also completely irrelevant to your pitching hand especially since you can just go pick up the rosin bag again if you want more
Again his glove was changed anyways and then still got thrown out later. The problem is with Cuzzi not Mad Max
you can try to rationalize it any way you want, but the rule is the rule. Here is the order of inspections:
Order of Inspections
After the second inning, first base umpire Phil Cuzzi determined Scherzer’s pitching hand was stickier and darker than normal. Cuzzi ordered Scherzer to wash his hand which Scherzer said he did with alcohol while an unnamed major league official watched.
At the end of the third inning, Cuzzi then determined the pocket of Scherzer’s glove was “sticky,” likely with too much rosin. Scherzer was ordered to change gloves which he did.
Before the start of the bottom of the fourth inning, the umpires determined Scherzer’s hands were stickier than earlier in the game. At that point the Mets right hander was ejected.
Plate umpire Dan Bellino said, “As far as stickiness, level of stickiness, this was the stickiness that it has been since I’ve been inspecting hands which goes back three seasons. It was reported that “when the umpires touched Scherzer’s hand, their fingers were sticking to his hand.”
Bellino added, “Every pitcher we check, we’re accustomed to what that rosin residue will be on a pitcher’s hand. The fact that this went so much further was indicative that there was something likely more than just rosin…whatever it was, it was all over the palm. It was up on the inside of the fingers.”
It sure seems there was something beyond rosin being used here. Of course Max will deny it. any cheater would. Just because Scherzer gets all hysterical and yells doesnt mean he is innocent. Bellino said that the umpires fingers were actually sticking to Max's hand. He was clearly in violation of the rules.
Remember, just because Max said it was only Rosin doesnt mean it was only rosin.
Bellino is just saying what he has to once Cuzzi made up his mind. No umpire in their right mind is going to come out and say it was all him I had nothing to do with it or didnt agree with it especially not a veteran umpire with power like Cuzzi.
Max was only using rosin. He would have to be the dumbest player in the world to continuously reapply something else. The alcohol they made him wash his hands with can also increase the tackiness of rosin. His glove was taken away, his hands were washed, and Cuzzi still through him out. The problem is with Cuzzi not Max
again, you are rationalizing. you dont know it was only rosin. Come on, do you really think Max would admit to using something in addition to rosin?
Hes one of the smartest pitchers in the game. I dont think theres any chance he would have been dumb enough to use anything illegal over and over and over again with all the checks and his glove being taken away. Hes also a pitcher that has generally undergone more checks than other pitchers and hes passed them all.
Do you really think there isnt a problem with Cuzzi when theres been 10s of thousands of checks and one guy is responsible for all 3 ejections which are the only three ejections?
Comments
Whether Max had the intent to violate the spirit of the rule I can’t say. But as far as using something other than rosin, he would have to be completely insane to do that after he had already been reprimanded twice. If he were inclined to use an illegal substance, that is the absolute last time he would decide to do it. The one thing that I think is clear is that he was using only rosin. Whether the way he used it was illegal or not is a fair discussion.
And if alcohol combined with rosin makes it extra sticky as has been reported, then why did an MLB official watch him wash his hand with alcohol and say nothing?
I think that both sides could have things correct here, in a way.
It is possible that in this instance, he was using a substance beyond even rosin, and that he also doubled down on that use even after his glove was changed.
It's also possible that this particular umpire is calling things tighter and more frequently, in terms of these issues.
It's also true, as far as I know, that the use of different substances is accepted and demanded, as I pointed out above regarding players and their safety.
This could also mean that the league has to still be seen as holding players accountable. It could also mean that they do that by having certain umps take on certain roles.
Also, while the use of these substances is accepted and expected, the overuse of them can sometimes be called out, particularly when a player is having a little too much success with it or has perhaps rubbed some other players, umps, or personnel the wrong way.
All of this could be true and happening simultaneously. So when an instance such as this pops up (baseball pun intended) you get discussion and banter on many levels (including here, among us).
Bellino is just saying what he has to once Cuzzi made up his mind. No umpire in their right mind is going to come out and say it was all him I had nothing to do with it or didnt agree with it especially not a veteran umpire with power like Cuzzi.
Max was only using rosin. He would have to be the dumbest player in the world to continuously reapply something else. The alcohol they made him wash his hands with can also increase the tackiness of rosin. His glove was taken away, his hands were washed, and Cuzzi still through him out. The problem is with Cuzzi not Max
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007
again, you are rationalizing. you dont know it was only rosin. Come on, do you really think Max would admit to using something in addition to rosin?
George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.
Hes one of the smartest pitchers in the game. I dont think theres any chance he would have been dumb enough to use anything illegal over and over and over again with all the checks and his glove being taken away. Hes also a pitcher that has generally undergone more checks than other pitchers and hes passed them all.
Do you really think there isnt a problem with Cuzzi when theres been 10s of thousands of checks and one guy is responsible for all 3 ejections which are the only three ejections?
Wisconsin 2-6 against the SEC since 2007