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Scherzer suspended for cheating

craig44craig44 Posts: 10,527 ✭✭✭✭✭

Will this affect his HOF candidacy? I think that those voters who will not vote for steroid users or those they think used should also keep Max off their ballots. You know, consistency and all.

George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

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    perkdogperkdog Posts: 29,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What did he do?

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    craig44craig44 Posts: 10,527 ✭✭✭✭✭

    got caught with a sticky substance on his pitching hand. was ejected from the game and suspended for 10 games. he swears it was rosin and sweat. the umpires disagreed. actually, rosin is considered an illegal substance if it makes the hand sticky.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

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    Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 2,250 ✭✭✭✭

    Wont have the slightest impact. He also wasnt suspended for cheating, he got an automatic suspension because of Phil Cuzzi throwing him out of the game. 3 pitchers in MLB have been thrown out and suspended for "sticky stuff" and all three have been a result of Phil Cuzzi. Even the bad umpires havent felt the need to insert themselves into a game in such a manner. With how the rules are written an umpire can throw a pitcher out for it for any reason and it seems Cuzzi may think people buy tickets to watch him umpire, maybe he has money on the games, maybe hes just settling a vendetta who knows but its more than a coincidence that over 3 years hes the only umpire to do it and has done it multiple times.

    MLB will back the suspension as they always do for the umpires regardless of what happened. If you watch the game it appears Cuzzi was looking for a reason to throw him out. He took his first glove away from him and even put his hand in a custom glove before doing so which is a huge no no and then kept at it excessively.

    As far as the science, rosin and sweat mixed together make a "sticky substance". This is especially true if someone is wearing sun screen and the sweat causes that to drip down into the mixture. None of those substances are illegal nor is mixing them. The "sticky stuff" rule is very dumb and has no basis other than an umpire saying I feel this is too much then the other umpires and the league back them up as always.

    Cuzzi needs to be removed from being allowed to do checks, I want to watch baseball not Cuzzi think hes the star of the game

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    SDSportsFanSDSportsFan Posts: 5,090 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 20, 2023 6:45PM

    https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/36249041/mets-ace-max-scherzer-suspended-10-games-mlb

    So, Umpire tells him to wash his hands.....he does so, with alcohol, in front of an MLB rep supervising him.

    Umpire tells him to change his glove.....he does so.

    Next inning, umpire feels Scherzer's hand is worse than before, and ejects him.

    Here's my question:

    If the umpire touched Scherzer's hand(s) and glove, did any of the stickiness transfer to the umpire's hand? Did the umpire wash his hands between episodes? If not, could the umpire have been the source of the problem in the second (ejection) incident?

    Another interesting point:

    There have been three ejections/suspensions of pitchers due to foreign substance "stickiness" since MLB started enforcing it in June 2021. ALL THREE have involved THE SAME UMPIRE.....Phil Cuzzi!

    Steve

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    thisistheshowthisistheshow Posts: 9,386 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @basebal21 seems to have so e inside insight, so maybe he can confirm or deny the following...hitters want pitchers to be able to control their fastballs. The velocity has gotten to a crazy high level, and for the sake of safety there is an unwritten agreement that pitchers do what is necessary to keep control of those heaters.

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    Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 2,250 ✭✭✭✭

    @thisistheshow said:
    @basebal21 seems to have so e inside insight, so maybe he can confirm or deny the following...hitters want pitchers to be able to control their fastballs. The velocity has gotten to a crazy high level, and for the sake of safety there is an unwritten agreement that pitchers do what is necessary to keep control of those heaters.

    Hit the nail on the head. Some hitters may not want spider tack type levels, but they do want pitchers to have grip and not have 100 mph fastballs coming at their head because they have no feel for the ball. The current balls are designed to be aerodynamic which means no grip and seems are basically non existent. MLB controls the facility that makes their balls and wants balls that promote homeruns.

    Its never really made any sense. Hitters can use pine tar tape and batting gloves, position players can use pine tar and other things in their gloves which they do, but now we have a rouge ump throwing out pitchers over rosin and sweat?

    Even in the spider tack days the hitters all knew it, their own staff was using it. Molina had a ball stick to his chest protector blocking it over half a decade ago. It goes both ways, both teams use it and it keeps a ball out of your head

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    grote15grote15 Posts: 29,523 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @perkdog said:
    What did he do?

    Nothing.



    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
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    grote15grote15 Posts: 29,523 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @SDSportsFan said:
    https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/36249041/mets-ace-max-scherzer-suspended-10-games-mlb

    So, Umpire tells him to wash his hands.....he does so, with alcohol, in front of an MLB rep supervising him.

    Umpire tells him to change his glove.....he does so.

    Next inning, umpire feels Scherzer's hand is worse than before, and ejects him.

    Here's my question:

    If the umpire touched Scherzer's hand(s) and glove, did any of the stickiness transfer to the umpire's hand? Did the umpire wash his hands between episodes? If not, could the umpire have been the source of the problem in the second (ejection) incident?

    Another interesting point:

    There have been three ejections/suspensions of pitchers due to foreign substance "stickiness" since MLB started enforcing it in June 2021. ALL THREE have involved THE SAME UMPIRE.....Phil Cuzzi!

    Steve

    Exactly. It was a total sham.



    Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
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    PaulMaulPaulMaul Posts: 4,708 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 20, 2023 8:23PM

    The most telling part is that he came back out after being told to wash his hand and change his glove KNOWING they would check him again. What kind of idiot using an illegal substance would continue to use it under those circumstances? Obviously he was not using an illegal substance.

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    perkdogperkdog Posts: 29,498 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Weird storyline here

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    craig44craig44 Posts: 10,527 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The rule on sticky substances states that "player use of rosin always must be consistent with the requirements and expectations of the Official Baseball Rules. When used excessively or otherwise misapplied (i.e., to gloves or other parts of the uniform), rosin may be determined by the umpires to be a prohibited foreign substance, the use of which may subject a player to ejection and discipline. ... Moreover, players may not intentionally combine rosin with other substances (e.g., sunscreen) to create additional tackiness."

    Scherzer himself admitted he had it in his glove.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

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    MCMLVToppsMCMLVTopps Posts: 4,612 ✭✭✭✭✭

    With the seriousness of the allegation, and Cuzzi's history, I wonder why all the umpires didn't congregate and confirm or deny? A 10 game suspension and an undisclosed fine, has surely cost Scherzer some dent in his wallet.

    Could well be that he got shafted by Cuzzi. Is it realistic to think his glove and hands could have been swabbed to confirm through analysis that he did or didn't have what he was accused of? Tough to reinstate whatever harm, minor or otherwise caused him, the suspension could get lifted and the monetary returned, but reputation cannot. Surely a simple combination of rosin and sweat, when analyze, could verify the possibility of the result being a "sticky substance". One umpire alone should not have such authority as to disparage a premier pitcher.

    Cuzzi's track record here is dismal to say the least!

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    Alfonz24Alfonz24 Posts: 3,050 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Max needs a good New York Lawyer

    #LetsGoSwitzerlandThe Man Who Does Not Read Has No Advantage Over the Man Who Cannot Read. The biggest obstacle to progress is a habit of “buying what we want and begging for what we need.”You get the Freedom you fight for and get the Oppression you deserve.
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    thisistheshowthisistheshow Posts: 9,386 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Alfonz24 said:
    Max needs a good New York Lawyer

    ...😂😂

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    BaltimoreYankeeBaltimoreYankee Posts: 2,903 ✭✭✭✭✭

    No way this affects his HOF status.
    ....and a 10 game suspension for a starting pitcher usually equates to one start missed. He will start a game, then serve the suspension. As far as the fine, he will be just 'fine' with that $43M salary ;)

    Daniel
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    lanemyer85lanemyer85 Posts: 1,317 ✭✭✭

    Scherzer's spin-rates (Baseline since they started checking pitchers in 2021) then Wednesday)

    4-seam - 2,385 / 2,483 (+98)
    Slider - 2,194 / 2,352 (+158)
    Curve - 2,597 / 2,840 (+243)

    then factor in his hand was "shiny" after two requests to wash them, sticky substance in the pocket of his glove after they made him change gloves. In all likelihood he had some sunscreen, or something new, mixed in with that "rosin and sweat" too.

    Let's not forget he was one of the guys, before everyone had heard of spider tack and "sticky stuff", who was buying that Angels' clubbie's concoction (along with Gerrit Cole, Kershaw, Verlander and others).

    https://www.si.com/mlb/2021/06/04/sticky-stuff-is-the-new-steroids-daily-cover

    So he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt. He should have been booted, just like Domingo German should have been yanked on Sunday.

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    TabeTabe Posts: 5,927 ✭✭✭✭✭

    This has nothing to do with Cuzzi. He wasn't the home plate umpire. The umpires detailed how bad the sticky substance was ("stickiest we've ever seen"). Scherzer admitted he was breaking the rules and isn't appealing.

    In other words, he was guilty and got caught.

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    craig44craig44 Posts: 10,527 ✭✭✭✭✭

    ^^^^^these guys have it. Not sure why so many seem to be giving Max the benefit of the doubt. He has used sticky stuff before and according to lanemyer, his spin rates were well above his average.

    Cheater. He admitted as much when he didn't appeal

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

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    thisistheshowthisistheshow Posts: 9,386 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Yes, he was cheating. I just know that there is selective enforcement, and like I said earlier I've read about hitters saying that they want pitchers using something to control location.

    It sucks that the fans are left arguing about cheating while the players just get richer.

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    Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 2,250 ✭✭✭✭

    @MCMLVTopps said:
    With the seriousness of the allegation, and Cuzzi's history, I wonder why all the umpires didn't congregate and confirm or deny? A 10 game suspension and an undisclosed fine, has surely cost Scherzer some dent in his wallet.

    Could well be that he got shafted by Cuzzi. Is it realistic to think his glove and hands could have been swabbed to confirm through analysis that he did or didn't have what he was accused of? Tough to reinstate whatever harm, minor or otherwise caused him, the suspension could get lifted and the monetary returned, but reputation cannot. Surely a simple combination of rosin and sweat, when analyze, could verify the possibility of the result being a "sticky substance". One umpire alone should not have such authority as to disparage a premier pitcher.

    Cuzzi's track record here is dismal to say the least!

    The other umpires did come over. The thing is with umpires, they always back each other. They ask what they want to do and then will back it up once a decision is made, especially with an older umpire like Cuzzi. Thats how they're trained and they suffer consequences by the umpire leadership if they dont stay in line even if they know the call is wrong.

    Mas Max reputation is perfectly fine, everyone knows what a joke the random umpire check rule is. Hes really only missing one start and having a 2nd delayed a day or two.

    The ironic part is maybe if this happens enough we will finally get the rule changed and clarified.

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    Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 2,250 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 21, 2023 3:59PM

    @Tabe said:
    This has nothing to do with Cuzzi. He wasn't the home plate umpire. The umpires detailed how bad the sticky substance was ("stickiest we've ever seen"). Scherzer admitted he was breaking the rules and isn't appealing.

    In other words, he was guilty and got caught.

    Cuzzi was the umpire that did it. He did the checks, he took the glove, he threw him out. Homeplate umpires dont do the checks.

    He isnt appealing because MLB has made it clear there are consequences for doing so and its just one missed start anyways so it doesnt really matter that much. Also the appeal goes in front of an MLB official so its pointless to try they will uphold it everytime. He initially thought it would be a neutral 3rd party not the MLB commissioners office and dropped the appeal learning it was MLB that hears the appeal

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    TabeTabe Posts: 5,927 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Basebal21 said:
    dropped the appeal learning it was MLB that hears the appeal

    After publicly admitting he broke the rules.

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    Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 2,250 ✭✭✭✭

    @Tabe said:

    @Basebal21 said:
    dropped the appeal learning it was MLB that hears the appeal

    After publicly admitting he broke the rules.

    The appeal was dropped after learning the special assistant to Manfred would be the one hearing it. Wasnt worth it over one missed start for an appeal he would lose no matter what

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    craig44craig44 Posts: 10,527 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Basebal21 said:

    @Tabe said:

    @Basebal21 said:
    dropped the appeal learning it was MLB that hears the appeal

    After publicly admitting he broke the rules.

    The appeal was dropped after learning the special assistant to Manfred would be the one hearing it. Wasnt worth it over one missed start for an appeal he would lose no matter what

    if you believe you are innocent, it is ALWAYS worth it to appeal. even if you think you will not win. He admitted his guilt. It is disingenuous for you to continue with your contrived narrative. your behind the scenes thoughts are nothing but conjecture. conjecture that is not needed when the player admitted guilt/cheating.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

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    1948_Swell_Robinson1948_Swell_Robinson Posts: 1,682 ✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:
    Will this affect his HOF candidacy? I think that those voters who will not vote for steroid users or those they think used should also keep Max off their ballots. You know, consistency and all.

    Cheating is cheating. If players who took steroids are outside the HOF because they gave them an advantage, then Scherzer should be no different.

    I personally don't think Bonds and Co. should be outside the HOF, but it is a pretty big case of hypocrisy if one keeps Bonds out for 'cheating' but not other 'cheaters'.

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    georgebailey2georgebailey2 Posts: 1,045 ✭✭✭

    @Basebal21 said:

    @Tabe said:
    This has nothing to do with Cuzzi. He wasn't the home plate umpire. The umpires detailed how bad the sticky substance was ("stickiest we've ever seen"). Scherzer admitted he was breaking the rules and isn't appealing.

    In other words, he was guilty and got caught.

    Cuzzi was the umpire that did it. He did the checks, he took the glove, he threw him out. Homeplate umpires dont do the checks.

    He isnt appealing because MLB has made it clear there are consequences for doing so and its just one missed start anyways so it doesnt really matter that much. Also the appeal goes in front of an MLB official so its pointless to try they will uphold it everytime. He initially thought it would be a neutral 3rd party not the MLB commissioners office and dropped the appeal learning it was MLB that hears the appeal

    After reading at least a half dozen plus articles, this is the most accurate summarization.

    Additionally:
    "Cuzzi determined after the second inning that Scherzer's hand was stickier and darker than normal and ordered Scherzer to wash his hand, which Scherzer said he did with alcohol while a Major League Baseball official watched.

    After the third inning, Cuzzi then determined the pocket of Scherzer's glove was "sticky," likely with too much rosin, and he ordered Scherzer to change gloves. The umpires then checked the 38-year-old right-hander again before the fourth, and his hands were even worse than before."

    Could be a case of both things being true at once. When you are getting checked each inning, it does not seem logical to tempt fate with knowingly using an illegal substance. However, he should have been more careful or self aware of what was happening with whatever he was doing.

    He better be more careful going forward as I have him in my NL-only fantasy league.

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    Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 2,250 ✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:

    @Basebal21 said:

    @Tabe said:

    @Basebal21 said:
    dropped the appeal learning it was MLB that hears the appeal

    After publicly admitting he broke the rules.

    The appeal was dropped after learning the special assistant to Manfred would be the one hearing it. Wasnt worth it over one missed start for an appeal he would lose no matter what

    if you believe you are innocent, it is ALWAYS worth it to appeal. even if you think you will not win. He admitted his guilt. It is disingenuous for you to continue with your contrived narrative. your behind the scenes thoughts are nothing but conjecture. conjecture that is not needed when the player admitted guilt/cheating.

    Its really not, it just delays when the suspension starts and you get on the leagues bad side which means if something else happens like a fight or throwing at someone your suspension will be more severe. If it was going to an independent arbitrator it may have been worth it, but going to the league office will be upheld every single time.

    The other thing though is theres really nothing to gain. At best you might get it reduced to 8 games or something like that which makes no difference. You're still missing the start at game 5 and would be pitching game 9 or 10 instead of game 11 or 12 with the full suspension. There's no chance the league would say the umpire messed up and overturn it entirely

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    Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 2,250 ✭✭✭✭

    @georgebailey2 said:

    @Basebal21 said:

    @Tabe said:
    This has nothing to do with Cuzzi. He wasn't the home plate umpire. The umpires detailed how bad the sticky substance was ("stickiest we've ever seen"). Scherzer admitted he was breaking the rules and isn't appealing.

    In other words, he was guilty and got caught.

    Cuzzi was the umpire that did it. He did the checks, he took the glove, he threw him out. Homeplate umpires dont do the checks.

    He isnt appealing because MLB has made it clear there are consequences for doing so and its just one missed start anyways so it doesnt really matter that much. Also the appeal goes in front of an MLB official so its pointless to try they will uphold it everytime. He initially thought it would be a neutral 3rd party not the MLB commissioners office and dropped the appeal learning it was MLB that hears the appeal

    After reading at least a half dozen plus articles, this is the most accurate summarization.

    Additionally:
    "Cuzzi determined after the second inning that Scherzer's hand was stickier and darker than normal and ordered Scherzer to wash his hand, which Scherzer said he did with alcohol while a Major League Baseball official watched.

    After the third inning, Cuzzi then determined the pocket of Scherzer's glove was "sticky," likely with too much rosin, and he ordered Scherzer to change gloves. The umpires then checked the 38-year-old right-hander again before the fourth, and his hands were even worse than before."

    Could be a case of both things being true at once. When you are getting checked each inning, it does not seem logical to tempt fate with knowingly using an illegal substance. However, he should have been more careful or self aware of what was happening with whatever he was doing.

    He better be more careful going forward as I have him in my NL-only fantasy league.

    He really just needs to not pitch when Cuzzi is in the crew. Cuzzi seems to have it out for him. Mad Max is notorious for barking at umpires and letting them have it, unfortunately this rule allows them to easily get revenge for a grudge and you can see pretty easily when they are doing that. Dont forget when the rule first started umpires were checking him so much he took his belt off and tried to drop his pants during the checks with the Nats meanwhile 99% of checks are just the umps patting their hand looking for really egregious things like spider tac and then saying youre good.

    The other thing that gets overlooked is he has a tendency to lick his hand pitching. If he was actually using something youd never lick your hand

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    georgebailey2georgebailey2 Posts: 1,045 ✭✭✭
    edited April 22, 2023 3:51PM

    @Basebal21 said:

    There's no chance the league would say the umpire messed up and overturn it entirely
    >

    This would be my thinking if I were in Scherzer's shoes. The league is not going to upset the umpires, when, in the strict definition of the rules, they were correct.

    Whether the umpires were "picking" on Scherzer is a different story which is ultimately irrelevant with regard to this suspension.

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    Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 2,250 ✭✭✭✭

    @georgebailey2 said:

    @Basebal21 said:

    There's no chance the league would say the umpire messed up and overturn it entirely
    >

    This would be my thinking if I were in Scherzer's shoes. The league is not going to upset the umpires, when, in the strict definition of the rules, they were correct.

    Whether the umpires were "picking" on Scherzer is a different story which is ultimately irrelevant with regard to this suspension.

    By the strict definition of the rule every pitcher that sets foot on the mound is technically in violation of it since theres no standard and its umpires discretion which is why its such a horrible rule. The umpires themselves admit they hate the rule as they have little to no training, theres no standard other than whatever you think, and surprisingly overall have done a good job just basically ignoring it. Its even worse when MLB keeps telling them to crack down on it and they dont even know what that means.

    Manfred seems to be under the impression the problem with attendance some places is the game of baseball itself and not the amount of owners that are blatantly tanking just pocketing money. Sadly the As are going to get awarded the Vegas market with their insanely cheap owner who has a team payroll below several individual players, you have the Reds owner on video saying they have no chance to compete for a playoff spot and arent going to try too etc. Put a good product on the field and people watch, dont and no one cares. Instead of addressing that we end up with these sticky stuff rules and all the major changes over the last 3 years.

    But yea theres no chance anything would have changed with the suspension had he appealed. Same thing happens with the NFL all the time when the league is the one the suspension is appealed too. Suspensions only get changed by arbitrators/courts or if the league negotiates a lighter penalty to drop the appeal. When the league is the one who does the appeal and already knows the outcome theres no reason for them to negotiate a lighter penalty.

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    craig44craig44 Posts: 10,527 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Basebal21 said:

    @craig44 said:

    @Basebal21 said:

    @Tabe said:

    @Basebal21 said:
    dropped the appeal learning it was MLB that hears the appeal

    After publicly admitting he broke the rules.

    The appeal was dropped after learning the special assistant to Manfred would be the one hearing it. Wasnt worth it over one missed start for an appeal he would lose no matter what

    if you believe you are innocent, it is ALWAYS worth it to appeal. even if you think you will not win. He admitted his guilt. It is disingenuous for you to continue with your contrived narrative. your behind the scenes thoughts are nothing but conjecture. conjecture that is not needed when the player admitted guilt/cheating.

    Its really not, it just delays when the suspension starts and you get on the leagues bad side which means if something else happens like a fight or throwing at someone your suspension will be more severe. If it was going to an independent arbitrator it may have been worth it, but going to the league office will be upheld every single time.

    The other thing though is theres really nothing to gain. At best you might get it reduced to 8 games or something like that which makes no difference. You're still missing the start at game 5 and would be pitching game 9 or 10 instead of game 11 or 12 with the full suspension. There's no chance the league would say the umpire messed up and overturn it entirely

    there is everything to gain when you realize that perception is everything. when you dont appeal and admit to cheating, the perception/truth is that you were cheating and you knew it.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

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    georgebailey2georgebailey2 Posts: 1,045 ✭✭✭
    edited April 23, 2023 8:20AM

    @craig44 said:

    there is everything to gain when you realize that perception is everything. when you dont appeal and admit to cheating, the perception/truth is that you were cheating and you knew it.

    The rule is relatively subjective as indicated by the umpires themselves, in the articles I have read, to the extent that they're unsure what really qualifies as illegal from both a quantitative (how sticky is too sticky) and qualitative (is the substance itself illegal if they're allowed to wear sunscreen and use rosin) standpoint.

    That is why only one umpire has done this.

    Is it worth appealing if there is a virtual certainty of being denied, where you risk irritating the entire umpires' union?

    Maybe it is.

    The only thing I do know is that if any of my sons were still young enough for a science fair, they'd be mixing a concoction of rosin, sweat and different brands of sunscreen to see which is the stickiest.

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    Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 2,250 ✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:

    @Basebal21 said:

    @craig44 said:

    @Basebal21 said:

    @Tabe said:

    @Basebal21 said:
    dropped the appeal learning it was MLB that hears the appeal

    After publicly admitting he broke the rules.

    The appeal was dropped after learning the special assistant to Manfred would be the one hearing it. Wasnt worth it over one missed start for an appeal he would lose no matter what

    if you believe you are innocent, it is ALWAYS worth it to appeal. even if you think you will not win. He admitted his guilt. It is disingenuous for you to continue with your contrived narrative. your behind the scenes thoughts are nothing but conjecture. conjecture that is not needed when the player admitted guilt/cheating.

    Its really not, it just delays when the suspension starts and you get on the leagues bad side which means if something else happens like a fight or throwing at someone your suspension will be more severe. If it was going to an independent arbitrator it may have been worth it, but going to the league office will be upheld every single time.

    The other thing though is theres really nothing to gain. At best you might get it reduced to 8 games or something like that which makes no difference. You're still missing the start at game 5 and would be pitching game 9 or 10 instead of game 11 or 12 with the full suspension. There's no chance the league would say the umpire messed up and overturn it entirely

    there is everything to gain when you realize that perception is everything. when you dont appeal and admit to cheating, the perception/truth is that you were cheating and you knew it.

    People that want to think he was cheating are going to think it no matter what. When he lost the appeal they would just say see I told you he cheated

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    SDSportsFanSDSportsFan Posts: 5,090 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Tabe said:
    This has nothing to do with Cuzzi. He wasn't the home plate umpire. The umpires detailed how bad the sticky substance was ("stickiest we've ever seen"). Scherzer admitted he was breaking the rules and isn't appealing.

    In other words, he was guilty and got caught.

    He's not appealing, because his team doesn't want him to appeal; not because he doesn't want to.....it is not his choice to not appeal!

    Steve

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    craig44craig44 Posts: 10,527 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @SDSportsFan said:

    @Tabe said:
    This has nothing to do with Cuzzi. He wasn't the home plate umpire. The umpires detailed how bad the sticky substance was ("stickiest we've ever seen"). Scherzer admitted he was breaking the rules and isn't appealing.

    In other words, he was guilty and got caught.

    He's not appealing, because his team doesn't want him to appeal; not because he doesn't want to.....it is not his choice to not appeal!

    Steve

    It absolutely is his choice to appeal. That is in the collective bargaining agreement. The team may not want him to, but it is completely his choice. I will tell you, If I felt I was being wrongly accused of something, and had access to an appeals process, I most certainly would appeal. Even if I felt I couldnt win. I would definitely want it on record that I appealed and did not agree with the ruling that I cheated.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

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    JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,217 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It absolutely is his choice to appeal. That is in the collective bargaining agreement. The team may not want him to, but it is completely his choice. I will tell you, If I felt I was being wrongly accused of something, and had access to an appeals process, I most certainly would appeal. Even if I felt I couldnt win. I would definitely want it on record that I appealed and did not agree with the ruling that I cheated.

    >
    >
    ABSOLUTELY correct! I agree completely!

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
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    Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 2,250 ✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:

    @SDSportsFan said:

    @Tabe said:
    This has nothing to do with Cuzzi. He wasn't the home plate umpire. The umpires detailed how bad the sticky substance was ("stickiest we've ever seen"). Scherzer admitted he was breaking the rules and isn't appealing.

    In other words, he was guilty and got caught.

    He's not appealing, because his team doesn't want him to appeal; not because he doesn't want to.....it is not his choice to not appeal!

    Steve

    It absolutely is his choice to appeal. That is in the collective bargaining agreement. The team may not want him to, but it is completely his choice. I will tell you, If I felt I was being wrongly accused of something, and had access to an appeals process, I most certainly would appeal. Even if I felt I couldnt win. I would definitely want it on record that I appealed and did not agree with the ruling that I cheated.

    Theres a difference between feeling you couldnt win and knowing you couldnt win. He knows he couldnt win. An appeal just draws more attention to it. This isnt a court where hes facing jail time. He did the smartest thing to just get this nonsense from Cuzzi over with and move on

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    TabeTabe Posts: 5,927 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Basebal21 said:

    People that want to think he was cheating are going to think it no matter what. When he lost the appeal they would just say see I told you he cheated

    Again, he admitted he was breaking the rules.

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    Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 2,250 ✭✭✭✭

    @Tabe said:

    @Basebal21 said:

    People that want to think he was cheating are going to think it no matter what. When he lost the appeal they would just say see I told you he cheated

    Again, he admitted he was breaking the rules.

    You keep stating that so post the video. If he had admitted to using an illegal substance it would be all over all of the baseball media, but its not........

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    craig44craig44 Posts: 10,527 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Basebal21 said:

    @craig44 said:

    @SDSportsFan said:

    @Tabe said:
    This has nothing to do with Cuzzi. He wasn't the home plate umpire. The umpires detailed how bad the sticky substance was ("stickiest we've ever seen"). Scherzer admitted he was breaking the rules and isn't appealing.

    In other words, he was guilty and got caught.

    He's not appealing, because his team doesn't want him to appeal; not because he doesn't want to.....it is not his choice to not appeal!

    Steve

    It absolutely is his choice to appeal. That is in the collective bargaining agreement. The team may not want him to, but it is completely his choice. I will tell you, If I felt I was being wrongly accused of something, and had access to an appeals process, I most certainly would appeal. Even if I felt I couldnt win. I would definitely want it on record that I appealed and did not agree with the ruling that I cheated.

    Theres a difference between feeling you couldnt win and knowing you couldnt win. He knows he couldnt win. An appeal just draws more attention to it. This isnt a court where hes facing jail time. He did the smartest thing to just get this nonsense from Cuzzi over with and move on

    It is all about the optics. for most people, perception is reality. when a player does not even attempt an appeal, it sure appears to the public that he knew he was guilty. It was a no-lose for him to have an appeal. its not as if it would have cost him millions of dollars or months of his time. It sure would have helped out his image, even if he had lost.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

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    georgebailey2georgebailey2 Posts: 1,045 ✭✭✭

    I have to admit that I haven't seen Scherzer admit to anything he thought was illegal in anything I have read.

    The reason I wouldn't pursue the appeal is that I wouldn't want to antagonize the umpires any further knowing that the decision is not in doubt.

    If it was a third party arbitrator and I knew I was right, I might be tempted to take my chances.

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    Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 2,250 ✭✭✭✭

    @georgebailey2 said:
    I have to admit that I haven't seen Scherzer admit to anything he thought was illegal in anything I have read.

    The reason I wouldn't pursue the appeal is that I wouldn't want to antagonize the umpires any further knowing that the decision is not in doubt.

    If it was a third party arbitrator and I knew I was right, I might be tempted to take my chances.

    Hes been adamant that all he was using was rosin. He even swore on the life of his children thats all he was using. He's done the exact opposite of admitting guilt

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    Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 2,250 ✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:

    @Basebal21 said:

    @craig44 said:

    @SDSportsFan said:

    @Tabe said:
    This has nothing to do with Cuzzi. He wasn't the home plate umpire. The umpires detailed how bad the sticky substance was ("stickiest we've ever seen"). Scherzer admitted he was breaking the rules and isn't appealing.

    In other words, he was guilty and got caught.

    He's not appealing, because his team doesn't want him to appeal; not because he doesn't want to.....it is not his choice to not appeal!

    Steve

    It absolutely is his choice to appeal. That is in the collective bargaining agreement. The team may not want him to, but it is completely his choice. I will tell you, If I felt I was being wrongly accused of something, and had access to an appeals process, I most certainly would appeal. Even if I felt I couldnt win. I would definitely want it on record that I appealed and did not agree with the ruling that I cheated.

    Theres a difference between feeling you couldnt win and knowing you couldnt win. He knows he couldnt win. An appeal just draws more attention to it. This isnt a court where hes facing jail time. He did the smartest thing to just get this nonsense from Cuzzi over with and move on

    It is all about the optics. for most people, perception is reality. when a player does not even attempt an appeal, it sure appears to the public that he knew he was guilty. It was a no-lose for him to have an appeal. its not as if it would have cost him millions of dollars or months of his time. It sure would have helped out his image, even if he had lost.

    It was a no win for him to do an appeal. There was 0 chance anything would change. This commissioners office has a history of retaliating against players at the next opportunity they have for players that dont just accept suspensions or negotiate a deal which the league wasnt interested in doing since they knew they would uphold their own suspension. Getting this over with and just missing the start was the smartest and best move he could have made personally and for his team

    Again the people that think he did something wrong would just be yelling see I told you so his suspension was upheld which it absolutely would have been no matter what. People that look at the actual situation see that theres a problem with Cuzzi doing checks. Out of 10s of thousands of checks over several years some how Cuzzi is the only umpire to ever throw someone out and hes done it three times, thats not a coincidence

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    TabeTabe Posts: 5,927 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 25, 2023 9:33PM

    @Basebal21 said:

    @Tabe said:

    @Basebal21 said:

    People that want to think he was cheating are going to think it no matter what. When he lost the appeal they would just say see I told you he cheated

    Again, he admitted he was breaking the rules.

    You keep stating that so post the video. If he had admitted to using an illegal substance it would be all over all of the baseball media, but its not........

    He also said that he had rosin in his glove

    The rule on sticky substances states that "player use of rosin always must be consistent with the requirements and expectations of the Official Baseball Rules. When used excessively or otherwise misapplied (i.e., to gloves or other parts of the uniform)

    https://abc7ny.com/sports/mets-max-scherzer-ejected-after-checks-for-sticky-substance/13155591/

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    Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 2,250 ✭✭✭✭

    @Tabe said:

    @Basebal21 said:

    @Tabe said:

    @Basebal21 said:

    People that want to think he was cheating are going to think it no matter what. When he lost the appeal they would just say see I told you he cheated

    Again, he admitted he was breaking the rules.

    You keep stating that so post the video. If he had admitted to using an illegal substance it would be all over all of the baseball media, but its not........

    He also said that he had rosin in his glove

    The rule on sticky substances states that "player use of rosin always must be consistent with the requirements and expectations of the Official Baseball Rules. When used excessively or otherwise misapplied (i.e., to gloves or other parts of the uniform)

    https://abc7ny.com/sports/mets-max-scherzer-ejected-after-checks-for-sticky-substance/13155591/

    His glove was changed. Numerous players have rosin in their glove or their hat brim. Thats not an admission of anything

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    craig44craig44 Posts: 10,527 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If he had rosin on his glove, he was in violation of the rules.

    Period.

    violation of the rules = cheating.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

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    thisistheshowthisistheshow Posts: 9,386 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @craig44 said:
    If he had rosin on his glove, he was in violation of the rules.

    Period.

    violation of the rules = cheating.

    ...
    I see your point, but I thought that rosin on the glove doesn't equal pitcher applied rosin to his glove. Meaning it was transferred there. Would depend on amount, etc.

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    Basebal21Basebal21 Posts: 2,250 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 26, 2023 4:30PM

    @craig44 said:
    If he had rosin on his glove, he was in violation of the rules.

    Period.

    violation of the rules = cheating.

    Then every player should be thrown out of every game. Position players will even use small amounts of pine tar in the palms of their glove. Balls are coming at over 100 MPH rosin inside your glove to help keep it on when a 110 mph gets hits at you from 45 feet away is hardly cheating for a pitcher. Its also completely irrelevant to your pitching hand especially since you can just go pick up the rosin bag again if you want more

    Again his glove was changed anyways and then still got thrown out later. The problem is with Cuzzi not Mad Max

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    craig44craig44 Posts: 10,527 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Basebal21 said:

    @craig44 said:
    If he had rosin on his glove, he was in violation of the rules.

    Period.

    violation of the rules = cheating.

    Then every player should be thrown out of every game. Position players will even use small amounts of pine tar in the palms of their glove. Balls are coming at over 100 MPH rosin inside your glove to help keep it on when a 110 mph gets hits at you from 45 feet away is hardly cheating for a pitcher. Its also completely irrelevant to your pitching hand especially since you can just go pick up the rosin bag again if you want more

    Again his glove was changed anyways and then still got thrown out later. The problem is with Cuzzi not Mad Max

    you can try to rationalize it any way you want, but the rule is the rule. Here is the order of inspections:

    Order of Inspections
    After the second inning, first base umpire Phil Cuzzi determined Scherzer’s pitching hand was stickier and darker than normal. Cuzzi ordered Scherzer to wash his hand which Scherzer said he did with alcohol while an unnamed major league official watched.

    At the end of the third inning, Cuzzi then determined the pocket of Scherzer’s glove was “sticky,” likely with too much rosin. Scherzer was ordered to change gloves which he did.

    Before the start of the bottom of the fourth inning, the umpires determined Scherzer’s hands were stickier than earlier in the game. At that point the Mets right hander was ejected.

    Plate umpire Dan Bellino said, “As far as stickiness, level of stickiness, this was the stickiness that it has been since I’ve been inspecting hands which goes back three seasons. It was reported that “when the umpires touched Scherzer’s hand, their fingers were sticking to his hand.”

    Bellino added, “Every pitcher we check, we’re accustomed to what that rosin residue will be on a pitcher’s hand. The fact that this went so much further was indicative that there was something likely more than just rosin…whatever it was, it was all over the palm. It was up on the inside of the fingers.”

    It sure seems there was something beyond rosin being used here. Of course Max will deny it. any cheater would. Just because Scherzer gets all hysterical and yells doesnt mean he is innocent. Bellino said that the umpires fingers were actually sticking to Max's hand. He was clearly in violation of the rules.

    Remember, just because Max said it was only Rosin doesnt mean it was only rosin.

    George Brett, Roger Clemens and Tommy Brady.

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    JoeBanzaiJoeBanzai Posts: 11,217 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It never ceases to amaze me when people are proven wrong, they just keep arguing. Finally, you get the old "If my guy was guilty, everybody's guilty" response.
    Scherzer got caught with too much "gunk" on his hand/glove, got two warnings and failed to clean up his act. He then got ejected, deservedly so.
    Furthermore, he didn't appeal the ruling, which is in effect admitting he was in the wrong.
    To answer the original question, I doubt this will have a big impact on his HOF chances.

    2013,14 and 15 Certificate Award Winner Harmon Killebrew Master Set and Master Topps Set
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